Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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Ritajanice

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John 1:1-14​

King James Version​

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.


In the beginning was the word and the word was with God....Jesus must have been that word from the very beginning...the more I study in-depth with the Holy Spirit leading the way, the more it makes sense, “ spiritually..

Jesus spread the word of God he spread the good news..

Jesus was with God before the foundation of the world......just like the Born Again...


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
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ProDeo

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Do you believe the Son of Man was in Heaven? Originated in Heaven, as a man?
And now you successfully ducked the original question you (and no one) can possibly answer, only believe.

You are a smart guy with decent Scriptural knowledge and I have a hard time to believe you missed the dilemma you are facing.

Now please answer the question with a clear yes or no or undecided, can you do that?

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

[Q] - Was the Person in heaven (who descended) a created Being or not?
 

Ritajanice

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You see, David, if you truly know God
I’ve asked you this question countless times, to which you never reply...how can you expect to discuss, when you are telling David, me and others who don’t agree with you, that we truly don’t know God.

So tell us...how do you know God?....plus explain how you know that we don’t know how to communicate with God?

, understand how He communicates, and recognize how He works according to the Divine pattern, you will gain an understanding that far exceeds that of your Trinitarian bro's & sis's!
Maybe you can explain how God communicates?

Before you can answer that question, you first need to explain how you know God and how do you know that it’s God that you are communicating with?

You know God’s divine pattern do you as you say below.

if you truly know God, understand how He communicates, and recognize how He works according to the Divine pattern
 
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face2face

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Now please answer the question with a clear yes or no or undecided, can you do that?

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

[Q] - Was the Person in heaven (who descended) a created Being or not?
As I implied your question is flawed!

Heaven does not hold any fleshly men - you get this right?

However, what it does hold is God's Power to create him in the womb of Mary, which is what happened.

I think you know your problem "even the Son of man which is in heaven".

Did the Son of man literally come down from heaven?

I can explain how he came down but you cannot explain how sins flesh was in heaven!

This verse demands of you something you have shown you cannot do and that is to interpret.

Maybe you don't know what theophany is?

This passage is one of several in the Gospel of John that utilizes Old Testament language related to theophany (the appearance of God). A manifestation of divine power is described as "God coming down," and its completion is marked by God "going up" or ascending.

Here I'll list you the examples so you can learn...

Here are some verses to consider:
  1. Genesis 11:5
    "And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built."
  2. Genesis 18:21
    "I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know."
  3. Exodus 3:7-8
    "Then the Lord said, 'I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings, and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey...'"
  4. Exodus 19:11
    "And be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people."
  5. Exodus 19:18
    "Now Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke because the Lord had descended on it in fire. The smoke of it went up like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled greatly."
  6. Exodus 19:20
    "As soon as the trumpet sounded a long blast, they drew near the mountain."
  7. Exodus 34:5
    "The Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord."
  8. Psalm 18:9-10
    "He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he came swiftly on the wings of the wind."
  9. Isaiah 64:1
    "Oh that you would rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at your presence!"
Hope that helps

F2F
 

face2face

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I’ve asked you this question countless times, to which you never reply...how can you expect to discuss, when you are telling David, me and others who don’t agree with you, that we truly don’t know God.

So tell us...how do you know God?....plus explain how you know that we don’t know how to communicate with God?


Maybe you can explain how God communicates?

Before you can answer that question, you first need to explain how you know God and how do you know that it’s God that you are communicating with?

You know God’s divine pattern do you as you say below.

if you truly know God, understand how He communicates, and recognize how He works according to the Divine pattern
Why don't you address the "Holy, Holy, Holy" post, instead of continuing with this needless discussion?
 

face2face

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Regarding John 3:13, which has caused some Trinitarians to become rather excited... they can relax!

Christ did not literally descend from heaven!

His origin was heavenly, as the context of John 3:31 indicates, in that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, and His teachings were not his own, but those of his Father (Luke 1:35; John 7:16; 17:14).

What next?
 

Ritajanice

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Why don't you address the "Holy, Holy, Holy" post, instead of continuing with this needless discussion?
I have asked you questions that you presented to @David in NJ . unfortunately as usual you have no answer..

If you accuse members of not knowing how to communicate with God, then you need to be ready to answer the accusations...

I asked you, if David doesn’t know how to communicate with God..then how do you communicate with him?

Pretty simple answer to my question imo, only you were unable to answer the question.

Therefore nothing you post can be taken seriously, as you are unable to explain how you communicate with your spiritual Father... @face2face ?

I communicate with God via the Holy Spirit who indwells my spirit...the Holy Spirit is Gods Living testimony/ witness?

He witnesses/ testifies Of God to our heart/ spirit... @face2face ?

From the reading of your posts @face2face you post plenty of scripture...yet I see no spiritual understanding from you whatsoever...

We need both my friend...heart/ spirit knowledge, which comes from Gods Living testimony, then we need him to guide us through the scriptures to bring them to our understanding.

There is much in the Bible that the Spirit hasn’t brought to my understanding...we learn spiritual matters all in God’s timing...
 
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ProDeo

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The Father is also Living in us the Born Again....doing his work through us..via His Holy Spirit..

Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him (John 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17).

Here is another Interesting commentary.

Is Jesus God in the flesh?​

Since Jesus’ conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:26-38), the real identity of Jesus Christ has always been questioned by skeptics. It began with Mary’s fiancé, Joseph, who was afraid to marry her when she revealed that she was pregnant (Matthew 1:18-24). He took her as his wife only after the angel confirmed to him that the child she carried was the Son of God.

Hundreds of years before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of God’s Son: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). When the angel spoke to Joseph and announced the impending birth of Jesus, he alluded to Isaiah’s prophecy: "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God with us’)" (Matthew 1:23). This did not mean they were to name the baby Immanuel; it meant that "God with us" was the baby’s identity. Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.

Jesus Himself understood the speculation about His identity. He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" (Matthew 16:13; Mark 8:27). The answers varied, as they do today. Then Jesus asked a more pressing question: "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15). Peter gave the right answer: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16). Jesus affirmed the truth of Peter’s answer and promised that, upon that truth, He would build His church (Matthew 16:18).

The true nature and identity of Jesus Christ has eternal significance. Every person must answer the question Jesus asked His disciples: "Who do you say that I am?"

He gave us the correct answer in many ways. In John 14:9-10, Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible is clear about the divine nature of the Lord Jesus Christ (see John 1:1-14). Philippians 2:6-7 says that, although Jesus was "in very nature God, He did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

Jesus is fully God and fully man, and the fact of His incarnation is of utmost importance. He lived a human life but did not possess a sin nature as we do. He was tempted but never sinned (Hebrews 2:14-18; 4:15). Sin entered the world through Adam, and Adam’s sinful nature has been transferred to every baby born into the world (Romans 5:12)—except for Jesus. Because Jesus did not have a human father, He did not inherit a sin nature. He possessed the divine nature from His Heavenly Father.

Jesus had to meet all the requirements of a holy God before He could be an acceptable sacrifice for our sin (John 8:29; Hebrews 9:14). He had to fulfill over three hundred prophecies about the Messiah that God, through the prophets, had foretold (Matthew 4:13-14; Luke 22:37; Isaiah 53; Micah 5:2).

Since the fall of man (Genesis 3:21-23), the only way to be made right with God has been the blood of an innocent sacrifice (Leviticus 9:2; Numbers 28:19; Deuteronomy 15:21; Hebrews 9:22). Jesus was the final, perfect sacrifice that satisfied forever God’s wrath against sin (Hebrews 10:14). His divine nature made Him fit for the work of Redeemer; His human body allowed Him to shed the blood necessary to redeem. No human being with a sin nature could pay such a debt. No one else could meet the requirements to become the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (Matthew 26:28; 1 John 2:2). If Jesus were merely a good man as some claim, then He had a sin nature and was not perfect. In that case, His death and resurrection would have no power to save anyone.

Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him (John 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17).
Gotquestions seldom disappoints.
 
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Ritajanice

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Regarding John 3:13, which has caused some Trinitarians to become rather excited... they can relax!

Christ did not literally descend from heaven!

Trying to understand that Christ didn’t descend from heaven....how do trinitarians believe Jesus descended from heaven?
His origin was heavenly, as the context of John 3:31 indicates, in that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, and His teachings were not his own, but those of his Father (Luke 1:35; John 7:16; 17:14).

What next?
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.......sent from heaven, in what sense ....?

What is the Holy Spirit?...or who is the Holy Spirit?

What is the “ seed” of God @face2face ?
 
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J

Johann

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Yes, the Spirit speaks to me quite often through Got answers..imo.
There is nothing wrong with that, for we are all in a process of growth, as it is written:

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." (2 Peter 3:18, Textus Receptus)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6, Textus Receptus)

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13, Textus Receptus)

These verses affirm that believers are continually being transformed by God’s grace and power.

J.
 

ProDeo

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As I implied your question is flawed!

Heaven does not hold any fleshly men - you get this right?
Am I talking to a layman in Scripture?

Jesus existed before creation (John 17:5 and other passages), how can He be a human ?

Now please answer the question with a clear yes or no or undecided, can you do that?

John 3:13 - No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

[Q] - Was the Person (not a human) in heaven (who descended) a created Being or not?
 

Ritajanice

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It's fine for the sister to use Gotquestions @ProDeo.

J
I know it is, he also speaks at times ,directly to my spirit, which he would do, because we communicate with God via our spirit to the Holy Spirit.

Without being Born Of The Spirit, I wouldn’t even know God, let alone communicate with him via His Spirit.

As you know I never became Born Again reading a Bible, it was by supernatural divine heart revelation.

For others they became Born Again whilst reading the word.

We all need to be led through the scriptures by the Holy Spirit....I’m in scriptures most of the day, as that is God confirming his word to our spirit...as we are spirit children..my belief/ testimony.

All that I hear from the Spirit of God...I always check what I hear him say with the Bible....if what I hear isn’t in the Bible...then it didn’t come from the Holy Spirit....

And let’s be honest, we’ve all at times, been taken over by the old man...of course as we grow ...we become much more aware of him.....he will fade into the distance as we grow in Christ..

A Born Again will inevitably grow in Christ....as we were chosen and predestined to become children of God.
 
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Ritajanice

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Jesus existed before creation (John 17:5 and other passages), how can He be a human ?
Yes, I agree, Gods plan has already been set in motion from beginning to end....he doesn’t decide at the last minute what he will plan.

Jesus Spirit was with God from the very beginning..would you agree?
 

Ritajanice

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I often do myself.
I think it’s amazing how God uses different channels/ vessels to get his message across to us...

Got being one of them, lol.

The Living Holy Spirit is another...the Bible etc.

The Bible being the main one ...as what we hear, the Bible must agree with it.....imo.

God will never contradict His word the Bible.

Short commentary.

God likes to talk to us through many channels - like the Bible, prayer, and even through other Christians. So when we make time to be quiet and listen to him, we can be confident that He's talking to us. This confidence comes from having faith in Jesus and knowing that the Holy Spirit is always leading us.


RJ says....the Living testimony is always with us in our spirit.....witnessing that we are children of the most high...our Spirit Father, God.

As we continue to walk in faith, trust and belief...in God....we go from strength to strength...but, the road has been / is far from easy....true what God says about that narrow road/ path..
 
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face2face

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[Q] - Was the Person (not a human) in heaven (who descended) a created Being or not?
Your comprehension needs a lot of work Pro!

What type of person asks a flawed question more than once?

How about we move you from John 3:13 to John 8:23?

John 8:23 (ESV) says:

"He said to them, 'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

Try asking an "intelligent" question from this passage!

If you combine the two - here is a really good question for you Pro!

Was it Jesus (person) who came down from Heaven or was it the Holy Spirit (God's Power?)

What do you say?

F2F
 
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