Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Johann]

Another link Johann? Another copy and paste?

You have need to learn the milk of the Word for the meat isn't digesting in you!

F2F

@face2face you have been refuted re the Priesthood of Messiah and in your desperate attempt to debunk the Deity of Christ Jesus you will wrest the Scriptures-not good friend.

J.

 

[face2face]

@David in NJ here is the Mercy Seat

Romans 3:25:

"Whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."

Enjoy

F2F

 

[Pierac]

Personally I think you have become unhinged and should consider another vocation.

J.

Of course you do.... That's why you post with emotion.... not scripture!

Little girl... it's always about how you feel about what your told to believe.... Never.... what saith the scriptures!

You can let go of your ankles now.... How do you not know these things?

 

[David in NJ]

And above the ark were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Now is not the time to speak of these things in detail. Heb 9:5.

Hebrews 9 will also help Johann!

Imagine if the writer went into those things in great detail?

Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

 

[face2face]

@face2face you have been refuted re the Priesthood of Messiah and in your desperate attempt to debunk the Deity of Christ Jesus you will wrest the Scriptures-not good friend.

J.

As I mentioned, you don't seem to grasp that someone from the tribe of Judah could not enter the Holy of Holies.

Go to sleep J. before you make more ridiculous statements

F2F

 

[face2face]

Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Who is the Mercy Seat?

 

[David in NJ]

Who is the Mercy Seat?

The Mercy Seat is the Place of Forgiveness = the Entrance into Heaven

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist

 

[Pierac]

@David in NJ who is the Mercy Seat David?

This is me holding your feet to the fire! View attachment 57052

F2F

To begin, did you know that every single Greek translation of the New Testament has textual differences, that NONE agree completely? For example, in Matthew 23:1-4, because of a misunderstanding of Hebrew thought and customs as well as a mistranslation of the ORIGINAL Hebrew when the Greek Gospels were being written, the words of Yahushua became confusing and His intentions obscured as the various Greek manuscripts had Yahushua telling his Disciples that the Pharisees and Scribes sit upon Moses' Seat, therefore do as they say but their deeds are false so don't do as they do. Huh? That is the confused response most of Christianity has had to those words of the Messiah for a thousand years or more. Most just shrugged it off and chalked it up to one of those "mysteries" the Messiah will explain when he returns, because surely, in light of "Grace" and "Freedom," the Messiah wasn't telling us to obey the Pharisees, whom Yahushua vigorously rebuked, whom He once called a "brood of vipers." To this, I agree! Where doctrinal conflict arose, He WASN'T telling us to obey the Pharisees but to OBSERVE MOSES! Huh? There's that confused response again. Let's look at it further and you too will see what Yahushua HaMachiach (Jesus, the Christ) REALLY told us, his Talmadim (Disciples).

First, lets look at the King James Version of Yahushua's words translated from the various existing Greek manuscripts.

(Mat 23:1-4 KJV) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, {2} Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: {3} All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. {4} For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Yahushua is very clear here in Matthew, isn't he? The Messiah is telling us, since the Pharisees and Scribes sit in "Moses' Seat," a "seat" of religious authority, we should OBSERVE and DO WHATSOEVER they tell us. But oddly he then tells us to NOT DO as they do because they say one thing but do another.

What is Moses' Seat?​

Moses' Seat is a symbolic physical seat within ancient Synagogues where the Chief or Elder Priest would sit. It is a seat of authority and judgment within Pharisaical Judaism, usually beautifully and ornately carved and in a very prominent position within the Synagogue. It was, in that day, where the LAW and judgments came forth.

When a Chief or Elder Priest sat in Moses' Seat and spoke, it was received as the FINAL WORD, similar to when a King or Pharaoh sits upon his throne for official decrees. In our day, the Pope upon the Roman Catholic throne is similar to Catholics as the Chief Priest upon Moses' Seat is to those in Pharisaical Judaism back then. It is the corruption of Moses' Seat by those who sat in this position of authority that Yahushua specifically addresses in Matthew.

The HEBREW Matthew!​

It may come as a surprise to many but many Biblical scholars, now more than ever, believe that the Gospels, as well as other New Testament books, were originally written in Hebrew, then later translated into Greek. Think about it! Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all Hebrew speaking Israelites. Their mother tongue was Hebrew or Aramaic, not Greek. Some, such as John, may only have had a cursory understanding of Greek in order to conduct business with foreigners, let alone a fluent and comprehensive understanding of Greek that would be required to write the complex Greek Gospels.

A 14th century polemical treatise "Even Bochan" written by Shem-Tob ben-Isaac ben-Shaprut Ibn Shaprut, a Castilian Jewish physician, living later in Aragon, in the 12th/ 13th book contains a Hebrew version of the complete text of Matthew. Although it has considerable revision to make it more in line with Greek and Latin texts, the Hebrew foundation of the Gospel of Matthew is unmistakable. This Matthew is a HEBREW Matthew, not a translation of Greek or Latin into Hebrew.

Getting back to Moses' Seat in Matthew 23:1-3 again, Shem Tob's Hebrew Matthew gives us a completely different picture of Moses' Seat than given in the Greek and Latin originated King James Version. Below is an English translation of the Hebrew Matthew 23:1-2 by Nehemia Gordon, a Karite Jew, and a scholar who is a translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls and an expert in ancient Hebrew/Aramaic texts. [For Nehemia's intro to his newly published book on Moses' Seat and the Hebrew Matthew, click here.]

"The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (ma‘asim) do not do, because they talk but do not do."

Takanot are "reforms that change biblical law" and Ma'asim are "acts or deeds that serve as precedent."

Yahushua, in his rebuke of Pharisaical traditions of men, compared the deeds and reforms of the Pharisees and Scribes with the deeds and reforms of the Samaritans in 2 Kings 17:34, adding even further scholarly weight to Shem Tob's version of Matthew 23:1-2.

(2 Ki 17:34 KJV) Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the LORD, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;

The KJV over complexes this simple passage. Nehemia's translation of this Hebrew passage makes it more clear...

2Ki 17:34: The Samaritans do "according to their statutes and their judgments" but "they do not do" according to the Torah

Do as Moses says in Torah, not as the "religious leaders" do!​

Yahushua IS what is written, SAID what is written and DID what is written. Yahushua is TORAH; the Word of Elohim (God)!

YHWH promised us Gentiles that in the "last days" He would, "just this once," show us His might and power and the trustworthiness of His Word, specifically the Torah. Is it any surprise that YHWH would bring forth a "new revelation" that would guide us, the Gentiles who are called by His Name, back to TRUTH, that being the validity and relevance of Torah to a New(er) Covenant Believer? For YHWH has not changed, nor will He ever! When He tells us in His Torah that His Feasts (Festivals) are FOR EVER, a PERPETUAL Covenant and that His Sabbath, on the 7th day (Saturday) is for ALL our GENERATIONS, that is exactly what He means.

Yahushua confirms this when he tells his Talmadim/Disciples and followers to look to Moses' Seat and OBSERVE and DO what Moses' has told us in Torah, yet do not do as the "religious leaders" do. The religious leaders (Pope, Pastors, Preachers) have abandoned Moses even though they now sit in a position of authority! They do as if Torah has passed away and is no longer valid, they change the day of Sabbath with Takanot to show their own authority over Scripture and with Ma'asim they hid and have forgotten the Holy Name of their Elohim (God), YHWH, thus breaking the Third of Ten Commandments by taking His name in vain.

Even after Yahushua's death, resurrection and the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), the Apostles, debating what must a Gentile DO after salvation, gave the Gentiles certain SPECIFIC commandments from Torah that MUST BE OBEYED for them to remain in fellowship with other Believers. Contrary to popular Christian doctrines twisted from Paul's teachings, the observance of Torah and Sabbath is encouraged by the Apostles.

(Acts 15:19-21 KJV) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: {20} But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. {21} For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Basically, they are saying, "They are babes in the Messiah, barely able to stand, let us not trouble them with what WE KNOW about serving Elohim (God) in Torah, for they have plenty of time to learn this later as MOSES IS TAUGHT EVERY SABBATH IN EVERY CITY. We have had our WHOLE LIVES to learn Moses, they have not."

YHWH is calling us to "come out of her (Babylon)!" Abandon the foolish and deceptive doctrines of "religious leaders" and reject the pagan influences that have infected the "Faith that was ONCE delivered to the Saints." Return to the Faith of our Fathers where Torah and Grace co-exist in perfect harmony as YHWH intended. Enjoy the beauty and intimacy of YHWH's prophetic Festivals and the Sabbath Day, the times and seasons He has PROMISED to meet with you! These are not "Jewish" times and seasons, but YHWH's alone. He established them in His Torah, return to Him!

How do you not know these things????

 

[MonoBiblical]

What is more dangerous, saying the son was only human, or demanding God is cruel enough to give out Eternal Conscious Torment?

ECT is a blank bullet.

 

[Johann]

As I mentioned, you don't seem to grasp that someone from the tribe of Judah could not enter the Holy of Holies.

Go to sleep J. before you make more ridiculous statements

F2F

Not ridiculous statements-you keep on exposing your error in a desperate attempt to debunk the Deity of Messiah!

Jesus' Priesthood is Superior and Distinct from the Levitical Order
Jesus was not a Levitical priest but a priest "according to the order of Melchizedek," a priesthood that transcends the
Levitical system.


Hebrews 7:14-17: "For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. For He testifies: 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.'"

Melchizedek’s priesthood predates and supersedes the Levitical priesthood, showing that Jesus’ priesthood operates on a completely different and superior basis.

2. Jesus Entered the True Holy of Holies in Heaven
The earthly Holy of Holies was a shadow and type of the heavenly reality, and Jesus entered the true Holy of Holies in heaven through His sacrifice.

Hebrews 9:11-12: "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."

Jesus’ sacrifice rendered the earthly Holy of Holies obsolete because He fulfilled what the temple rituals symbolized.

3. Jesus Was Sinless and Fulfilled the Law Completely

Jesus’ perfect obedience to the law and His sinlessness (e.g., Hebrews 4:15) qualified Him to serve as the High Priest, even though He was from Judah. His role was established by divine appointment, not by hereditary lineage.

Hebrews 5:5-6: "So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: 'You are My Son, today I have begotten You.' As He also says in another place: 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.'"

4. The Mosaic Covenant and Levitical Priesthood Were Temporary

The priestly system under the Mosaic covenant was intended to point to Christ and was not an eternal arrangement.

Hebrews 8:13: "In that He says, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

With the coming of Jesus, the Levitical priesthood was replaced by a better covenant and a better priesthood.

5. Prophecy Anticipates a Priest-King from Judah

The Old Testament prophesies a priestly role for the Messiah, who would also be a king. This dual role is fulfilled in Jesus:

Zechariah 6:13: "Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory and shall sit and rule on His throne; so He shall be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

Jesus, as a descendant of Judah, fulfills the role of the Davidic king and the eternal High Priest.

Jesus’ priesthood operates on a higher and eternal plane, established by God’s oath (Hebrews 7:20-22). While the tribe of Judah was not assigned Levitical duties under the Mosaic law, Jesus’ priesthood is based on the order of Melchizedek, which is superior to and independent of the Levitical system.

Therefore, His ability to enter the Holy of Holies in heaven is not bound by the restrictions of the Mosaic covenant but is the fulfillment of God’s redemptive plan.

How long will you go on like this?

J.

 

[David in NJ]

What is more dangerous, saying the son was only human, or demanding God is cruel enough to give out Eternal Conscious Torment?

ECT is a blank bullet.

They are BOTH dangerous = to the unbeliever

 

[MonoBiblical]

They are BOTH dangerous = to the unbeliever

Belief is not the same as trust πιστις. A god who is cruel is untrustable. You can't have it both ways.

 

[APAK]

The SAME Lord who appeared OVER the Mercy Seat = for it belongs to HIM for His GLORY

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

David, is there a difference between creating heaven(s) itself and creating 'things' in heaven(s), and the same goes for creating the earth and then creating 'things' in the earth. This must be understood before you can understand the handy cherry-picked verse you swing around a lot.

 

[MonoBiblical]

David, is there a difference between creating heaven(s) itself and creating 'things' in heaven(s), and the same goes for creating the earth and then creating 'things' in the earth. This must be understood before you can understand the handy cherry-picked verse you swing around a lot.

Heaven within the Greek and Hebrew cognates is actually a rock elevation, and the cognates for earth actually mean soil. There is no known word for planet Earth in Hebrew, or perhaps even Greek.

 

[face2face]

Not ridiculous statements-you keep on exposing your error in a desperate attempt to debunk the Deity of Messiah!

As long as you hold to this belief, you will continue to misinterpret Scripture.

 

[David in NJ]

David, is there a difference between creating heaven(s) itself and creating 'things' in heaven(s), and the same goes for creating the earth and then creating 'things' in the earth. This must be understood before you can understand the handy cherry-picked verse you swing around a lot.

Well, share what you are thinking.

i AGREE that 'cherry picking' scriptures can be manipulative when taken to oppose scripture.

Scripture cannot and does not oppose Scripture

 

[face2face]

@David in NJ

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created . . ."

The "creation" of which Christ is the firstborn refers to the creation of new men and women, not the creation of light, dry land, and so on in Genesis. The terms "create" and "creation" are used in the context of Christ's regenerative work.

Consider the following:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10; cf. 4:23-24)

"…to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace." (Eph. 2:15)

See also Colossians 3:9-10 (RSV), Galatians 6:15, James 1:18, and 2 Corinthians 5:17.

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

@David in NJ

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created . . ."

The "creation" of which Christ is the firstborn refers to the creation of new men and women, not the creation of light, dry land, and so on in Genesis. The terms "create" and "creation" are used in the context of Christ's regenerative work.

Consider the following:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10; cf. 4:23-24)

"…to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace." (Eph. 2:15)

See also Colossians 3:9-10 (RSV), Galatians 6:15, James 1:18, and 2 Corinthians 5:17.

F2F

What does "first born of every creature" mean to you?

 

[Johann]

What does "first born of every creature" mean to you?

Probably a "created being"-I wouldn't be surprised if @face2face believes this.

J.

 

[APAK]

Well, share what you are thinking.

i AGREE that 'cherry picking' scriptures can be manipulative when taken to oppose scripture.

Scripture cannot and does not oppose Scripture

Well can you answer my post or not David, else I'm moving on....