Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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No, I haven't focused on those posts so to see that.

Their Trinity doctrine removes them from it, from his name "Yahweh my Elohim" and many other Titles of God.

So sad

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So lets look more closely at this event in Zechariah 14

14:1 A day of the Lord is about to come when your possessions will be divided as plunder in your midst. , Zec 14:1.

The day of Yahweh will be a day of wrath and vengeance, directed not only at the nations but also at the people of Israel

Jeremiah 30:7 (ESV):
"Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it."

Isaiah 34:8 (ESV):
"For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion."

Zephaniah 2:1-3 (ESV):
"1 Gather together, yes, gather, O shameless nation, 2 before the decree takes effect—before the day passes away like chaff—
before there comes upon you the burning anger of the Lord, before there comes upon you the day of the anger of the Lord.
3 Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord."

For the saints, however, it will be a day of immense rejoicing as they witness and take part in the vindication of Yahweh's righteousness on the earth

Revelation 1:10 (ESV):
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet."

Isaiah 61:2-3 (ESV):
"2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; 3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion—to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes,the oil of gladness instead of mourning,the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit;that they may be called oaks of righteousness,the planting of the Lord, that he may be glorified."

Isaiah 26:8-10 (ESV):

"8 In the path of your judgments, O Lord, we wait for you;your name and renown are the desire of our soul.9 My soul yearns for you in the night;my spirit within me earnestly seeks you.For when your judgments are in the earth,the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 If favor is shown to the wicked,he does not learn righteousness;in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the Lord."

"thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee " – Cp. Ezek. 38:12-13.

Ezekiel 38:12-13:
"12 to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places that are now inhabited, and the people who were gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell at the center of the earth. 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all its leaders will say to you, 'Have you come to seize spoil? Have you assembled your host to carry off plunder,
to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to seize great spoil?'"

The riches of Israel must fall into Gogian Hosts hands but they will not be allowed to enjoy them!

Why?

Because the Almighty God has Plans!

Unlike times prior to Christ where He sent Armies of Angels NO! this time it will be Christ and the Saints!

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Notice the Players?

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle " –

This will be the fulfilment of Yahweh's 'determination, that both Israel and the nations might be humbled.

Zephaniah 3:8
"Therefore wait for me, declares the Lord, for the day when I rise up to seize the prey. For my decision is to gather the nations,
to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed."

 

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At a certain point in these studies, Trinitarians are left behind—not by my desire, but because the evidence is clear. If they cannot recognize themselves in the Name, then they are not truly His.

 

[APAK]

@APAK @Wrangler

Do you think Marks & Johann can see by their 3n1 dogma they take themselves out of the Word of God? Are they so fixated on the Deity they have totally missed God's Plan and Purpose with the Earth?

1. Exodus 19:6 (ESV): "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."
2. Peter 2:9 (ESV):
   "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."
3. Revelation 1:6 (ESV):
   and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen."
4. Revelation 5:10 (ESV):
   "and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

Not once in all these discussions have Marks or Johann included themselves in His plan

Have you noticed that?

Not once!

Of course it's so obvious, blinded by thou holy religious political-creed(s) and edicts of the 4th century and much later, and it still going on and getting even worse today..

You know I've noticed this constant stamping/ branding or identifying Christ existing especially in the OT and being called YHWH since the 70s. It was nearly unheard of before, except within scholarly circles. And it's at heightened levels or at a frenzy today.

The plan of God takes a permanent back seat when you have to fight to keep your dogma and god model alive within scripture.

 

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"Half of the city shall go forth into captivity"

The prophet vividly describes the course of the conflict. Gog's forces will overpower all other armies involved, and half of Jerusalem will fall to him in intense close combat. As Gog besieges the remaining half of the city, the Jewish captives will be deported, following an Assyrian practice (see Micah 5:5-6). At this point, while the remnant of Israel struggles desperately in Jerusalem, Christ and the saints will intervene, as described in the following verses.

Verse 3 – "Then shall the LORD go forth"

The Lord Jesus Christ, manifesting as Yahweh, will go out to battle, and He will not be alone (see verse 5), but accompanied by the saints. This refers to Yahweh Tzvaoth—the Christ Body —who, as "a man of war" (Ex. 15:3), will reveal Himself at the critical moment when Israel faces total despair. The word "then" suggests a timely and favorable manifestation.

 

[APAK]

Joel 3:1-17 speaks to the same event as Zech 14

Verse 1
"In those days" – This establishes the time period for the fulfillment of this prophecy, which is understood to be after the return of Judah (1948) and the restoration of Jerusalem (1967).

Verse 2
"I will also gather all nations" – This refers to a divine action carried out unbeknown to the nations, as also described in Zechariah 14:2!

"Into the valley of Jehoshaphat" – The name "Jehoshaphat" means "the judgment of Yah." This valley is also called the "valley of threshing" or "decision" in verse 14. It is identified as the Valley of Kidron, a narrow ravine running from north to south between Mount Olives on the east and Mount Moriah on the west.

"And will plead with them there" – The word "plead" in Hebrew is shaphat, meaning "to judge." This is a play on the name "Jehoshaphat," indicating that judgment will take place in this valley.

Verse 11

"Assemble yourselves and come, all ye heathen" – OR "Give help—come in all ye nations on every side", referring to the nations gathering against Jerusalem as indicated in verse 12.

Lend your aid and come, all you surrounding nations, and gather yourselves to that place.” Bring down, O Lord, your warriors Joel 3:11.

This refers to Christ and His glorified saints. While the nations gather "against Jerusalem to battle," Yahweh will bring His mighty ones to judge the nations on His behalf (verse 12). @marks @Johann

Verse 13

"The press is full, the vats overflow" – OR "vats". This imagery points to the winepress of Bozrah, which is a reference to judgment as described in Isaiah 63:1-6. It symbolizes the gathering of God's wrath.

Verse 14
"Multitudes, multitudes" – The Hebrew word hamon is used here, helping to identify the origin of the multitude. In Ezekiel 39:11, Gog’s destroyed army is buried in the "valley of Hamon-Gog."
"The valley of decision" – The word charuts means incision or threshing, symbolizing a place of judgment and decisive action, where God’s judgment will be executed.

Many Christians are not being prepared as Yahweh's warriors. Instead, they are often weak and filled with human wisdom, making them unfit for service to Christ on that day.

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F2F that's one area I do not agree on: the 1948/1967 bit and such....it will take a long long discussion as why I do not buy into it. It is a deception..as with the folks that created these events and most of the people living in these places.....

 

[face2face]

Of course it's so obvious, blinded by thou holy religious political-creed(s) and edicts of the 4th century and much later, and it still going on and getting even worse today..

You know I've noticed this constant stamping/ branding or identifying Christ existing especially in the OT and being called YHWH since the 70s. It was nearly unheard of before, except within scholarly circles. And it's at heightened levels or at a frenzy today.

The plan of God takes a permanent back seat when you have to fight to keep your dogma and god model alive within scripture.

Because of the strength and context of "our" truth, when Marks and Johann return, they will be unable to speak to the true Story of the Bible, as they have adopted a different narrative—one that excludes them from it. It’s a matter of the strength of deception versus the power of the true revelation of God's Plan, and they must let go of the Trinity if they wish to be a part of it.

 

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F2F that's one area I do not agree on: the 1948/1967 bit and such....it will take a long long discussion as why I do not buy into it. It is a deception..as with the folks that created these events and most of the people living in these places.....

I'm really convinced APAK but no need to be dogmatic for now! The overall outcome does not change! Needless to say God's divine hand is seen in these events and I have plenty of Scripture to show evidence for another time.

 

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Now @marks & @Johann

This is where Zech 14 gets interesting!

Notice how the prophet takes us back?

Verse 3 "as when he fought in the day of battle "

How did Almighty God (Yahweh) fight in the day of battle?

Yahweh went forth before the hosts of Israel in the past!

Judges 4:14 (ESV):

"And Deborah said to Barak, 'Up! For this is the day on which the Lord has given Sisera into your hand. Does not the Lord go out before you?' So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men following him."

2 Samuel 5:24 (ESV):
"And when you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, then rouse yourself, for the Lord has gone out before you to strike down the army of the Philistines."

1 Chronicles 14:15 (ESV):
"And when you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, then go out to battle, for God has gone out before you to strike down the army of the Philistines."

He was manifested belligerently on Israel's behalf through the angelic host

Exodus 23:20-23 (ESV):
20 "Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.
21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.
22 But if you carefully obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries.
23 When my angel goes before you and brings you to the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, and I blot them out,"

Joshua 5:14 (ESV):
And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?"

Joshua 10:14 (ESV):
There has been no day like it before or since, when the Lord heeded the voice of a man, for the Lord fought for Israel.

Joshua 23:3 (ESV):
"And you have seen all that the Lord your God has done to all these nations for your sake, for it is the Lord your God who has fought for you."

Judges 4:15 (ESV):
And the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and all his army before Barak by the edge of the sword, and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled away on foot.

At this great crisis He will be manifested in Christ and the saints on Israel's behalf and then the nations will witness once again the manifestation of divine power

Jesus Christ did not do this in Israel past, as the Master and His Bride didn't even exist!

This work of Almighty God in Christ is a FIRST!

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@APAK & @Wrangler

Notice how the Prophet focuses in on His Feet?

On that day his feet Zec 14:3–4.

Revelation 10:1 (ESV):
"Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire."

Revelation 1:15 (ESV):
"His feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters."

The feet of the Christ Body... these feet are instruments of judgement.

Amazing imagery and what the literal event will actually look like and who will be there - wow!

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"The Mount of Olives" – This prominent ridge is part of a mile-long series of limestone hills. It rises nearly 200 feet above Mount Zion, though it will ultimately be overshadowed by it (Isa. 2:2). There is a clear connection between this prophecy and the events of Christ's ascension, as well as the prediction of His return (Acts 1:9-12). While the angels' prediction regarding the manner of Christ's return should not be confused with Zechariah 14:4, there is a strong link between these two prophecies. As the apostles witnessed Christ's ascension from the Mount of Olives, they were focused on the restoration of Israel's kingdom (Acts 1:6). It is to this very location that Christ will return and reveal himself to Israel for their redemption (Rev. 1:7; Isa. 59:20).

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[APAK]

@APAK & @Wrangler

Notice how the Prophet focuses in on His Feet?

On that day his feet Zec 14:3–4.

Revelation 10:1 (ESV):
"Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head, and his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillars of fire."

Revelation 1:15 (ESV):
"His feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters."

The feet of the Christ Body... these feet are instruments of judgement.

Amazing imagery and what the literal event will actually look like and who will be there - wow!

F2F

That type of bronze finish, is the purest type made in those days, and refined, extracting all impurities, and used even today.

The sense of power, and lasting endurance in judgement of everything that offends. Judgment over some time and many human generations I imagine...

 

[Wrangler]

Do you think Marks & Johann can see by their 3n1 dogma they take themselves out of the Word of God?

Yes. Two simple yes or no questions:

1. Does Scripture explicitly identify ’there is only God the Father?’
2. Does Scripture explicitly identify ’there is only God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?’

Honest answers: 1. Yes. 2. No. Given that 1 is yes, it logically follows that the answer to 2 would be no.

The trinity IDOL contaminates everything, which is why they must be so schizophrenic in verses like Revelation 1:6 ‘and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. The rationalization that Jesus has a God but is God is case in point.

There is no evidence that God the Father has a God.

 

[face2face]

Yes. Two simple yes or no questions:

1. Does Scripture explicitly identify ’there is only God the Father?’
2. Does Scripture explicitly identify ’there is only God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?’

Honest answers: 1. Yes. 2. No. Given that 1 is yes, it logically follows that the answer to 2 would be no.

The trinity IDOL contaminates everything, which is why they must be so schizophrenic in verses like Revelation 1:6 ‘and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. The rationalization that Jesus has a God but is God is case in point.

There is no evidence that God the Father has a God.

To believe "in" the Trinity at the exclusion of Christ & the Saints for you cannot have a Body without its Head. In reality Trinitarians must believe that they are part of the Trinity or the Body of Christ does not exist.

The Word of God is emphatic that Christ and His Bride are One! And that the saints will accompany Christ on his mission to subjugate the nations is revealed here:

Psalm 149 (ESV):
1 Praise the Lord!
Sing to the Lord a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the godly!
2 Let Israel be glad in his Maker;
let the children of Zion rejoice in their King!
3 Let them praise his name with dancing,
making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
4 For the Lord takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with salvation.
5 Let the godly exult in glory;
let them sing for joy on their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their throats
and two-edged swords in their hands,
7 to execute vengeance on the nations
and punishments on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with chains
and their nobles with fetters of iron,
9 to execute on them the judgment written.
This is the honor for all his godly ones.
Praise the Lord!

John 18:37 (ESV):
Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?"
Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king.
For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth.
Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."

Revelation 19:11-15 (ESV):
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse!
The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True,
and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like a flame of fire,
and on his head are many diadems,
and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood,
and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure,
were following him on white horses.
15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations,
and he will rule them with a rod of iron.
He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

 

[Wrangler]

It must be understood that Zechariah is not referring to Christ personally, as a direct manifestation of Yahweh, but rather to the entire army of the redeemed.

The problem with Mark's perspective is that his focus on the Trinity distorts the rich beauty and visionary imagery in the Word of God. He prioritizes defending his cherished 3-in-1 doctrine, often at the cost of missing his own role in this incredible event.

All because he wants to Literally force his interpratation.

Crazy crazy crazy!

The crazy part is complicating the hell out of the fact that Jesus is the first born of all creation and the first born into a glorified body as the guarantee of our inheritance for the purposes of distracting from the implications of these simple facts.

Exhibit A of complicating things is dualism, agreeing to all the above while also not abandoning the trinity idol. Simply put, Jesus is either the first to be resurrected or he is not.

If he was not the first to resurrected because he never fully died, it makes a mockery of his entire ministry, life and death and apparent resurrection.

If he was the first to be resurrected, it means like to follow, meaning he is 100% human like all the rest to be resurrected OR we are all God, like Jesus. Either way, the trinity cannot hold up to scrutiny.

 

[face2face]

That type of bronze finish, is the purest type made in those days, and refined, extracting all impurities, and used even today.

The sense of power, and lasting endurance in judgement of everything that offends. Judgment over some time and many human generations I imagine...

Another interesting fact which must prick the conscience of the Trinitarian is this bronze finish.

"And Moses made a serpent of brass and put it upon a pole"

The metal would have had to endure the fire to be shaped, and in the process, it would have been purified (Num. 31:23; 16:38).

This points forward to the Lord Jesus, of whom it is written: "he learned obedience through the things which he suffered" (Heb. 5:8).

The "things he suffered" were part of his purification process!

What Trinitarian is willing to say God required to learn obedience or be purified?

Brass symbolizes flesh purified by fire. Any metal that remained after passing through the fire was considered cleansed (Num. 31:22-23).

Hence, when the fire of Yahweh consumed the Levites who rebelled against Moses and Aaron’s authority, only the brass from their censers remained.

This brass was then used in the brazen altar, symbolizing flesh purified by fire (Num. 16:35-38).

In John's vision, brass appears on the feet of the Christ-Body, signifying His ability to tread down the wicked. Just as animals were fitted with metal plates to tread out the corn, this serves as a metaphor for the future victories of the saints (Micah 4:11-13; Mal. 4:1-3). Therefore, this symbol represents flesh purified by fire, destined to go forth and discipline the nations, bringing them into submission to Christ.

Now this is worthy of a shout, Amen!

 

[face2face]

Numbers 16:35-38 (ESV):

35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men offering the incense.
36 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
37 "Tell Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest to take up the censers out of the blaze. Then scatter the fire far and wide, for they have become holy.
38 As for the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives, let them be made into hammered plates as a covering for the altar, for they offered them before the Lord, and they became holy. Thus they shall be a sign to the people of Israel."

@Wrangler @APAK

Do you know what is significant about this section of Scripture that is higlighted in a Psalm - its a beautiful lesson! Off subject!

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

I don’t know how trinitarians cannot see this?! He who acts for the fury of the wrath of God IS NOT God.

Imagine how this verse might be constructed if the trinity was Biblical? God the Son will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of the trinitarian God, who all 3 are God almighty.

 

[face2face]

I don’t know how trinitarians cannot see this?! He who acts for the fury of the wrath of God IS NOT God.

Imagine how this verse might be constructed if the trinity was Biblical? God the Son will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of the trinitarian God, who all 3 are God almighty.

Their knowledge gap ironically is themselves...I mean when God said He would send strong delusion could you ever imagine it being this strong?

The believer believes themselves out of their own hope!

Ridiculous

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