Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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Scott Downey

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WHAT A LOVELY REMINDER . you brought up a massive point about cornleious .
He actually did believe in THE TRUE GOD and HE sure did him many good works and alms .
EVEN HE had to hear the gospel and BELEIVE to be SAVED . See without FAITH IN CHRIST , WHOM GOD DID SEND
not even cornelious could be saved . Read acts eleven , the one following ten .
When the apostels were rebuking peter for entering into a gentile house .
WHAT did peter tell them . TO give that man words whereby HE could be SAVED . so
BELEIVE You me , BELEIVING IN JESUS THE CHRIST is a HUGE NECESITTY scott .
EVEN cornelious , good as those lovely works were that HE did , HAD TO BE SAVED
and how was he saved , BY THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL and HE BELEIVED .

Cornelious also recognized that God has visited them. It helped to have the angelic messenger! God made very certain what was about to happen was very important.

Acts 10
" Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God."

Other thing is Cornelious was a devout man praying to God always and doing good works. God made sure the gospel was preached to Him and had priorly planned to save Him and his household.

So Cornelious was a good man of God and that must have also done a good work of God in those around him, which prepared all of them ahead of time to believe in Christ. There is this somewhat hidden process of preparation to salvation where God is at work beforehand in the lives of His foreknown to Him people of God. Just like it was said of John the Baptist

Malachi 4
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,

Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

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Matthew 11
7 As they departed, Jesus began to say to the multitudes concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 But what did you go out to see? A man clothed in soft garments? Indeed, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. 9 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he of whom it is written:

‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.’

11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

***************************************************
Matthew 3
1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:

“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”[a]

4 John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with[b] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The Baptism of Jesus​

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

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David in NJ

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A body hast thou prepared for Me...who is Me?

JWs do not believe the Son was begotten. They say He was created, just as do APAK, Wrangler, and F2F. Nor do JWs believe Jesus is divine, but only a good human. As do APAK, Wrangler, and F2F.
JWs believe Jesus in His former existence was merely a created angel called Michael. A created being devoid of any ontological relationship with the Father.
Then there's the standard trinitarians who don't think through their beliefs and consider some sticky conclusions. Like if the second person of the "trinity" was not a Son until Bethlehem, what was He?
Like if the second person of the "trinity" was not a Son until Bethlehem, what was He?
the Holy Scriptures DIRECTLY tells us "what" HE IS Before HIS coming to earth.

How is it you cannot SEE this from the Scriptures???

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us = Immanuel

When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. And now,

And now, O Father, Glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the
Glory which I had with You before the world was.
 

David in NJ

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My question is, Mary got pregnant by the Holy Spirit did she not?

Therefore how could Jesus have been just an ordinary human being?

Jesus came from the divine seed of God.

I came from my human fathers seed, I then became Born Again by Gods divine seed, ..my spirit became Born Again.

Jesus was much more than an ordinary human being...he was God’s Son, conceived by Gods Spirit..you dont even have to look scripture up, to know that Jesus was divine.....just my thoughts.
PERFECT Thoughts of Truth
 
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Wrangler

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@Wrangler @APAK

Ezekiel 1:5 is an interesting verse when you liken it to "the image and likeness" spoken of in Gen 1:26. Angelic imagery had the likeness of man.
Image and forms are words used in Plato's philosophy but the ideas are not the same. Hebrews know not all as it seems. Paul wrote about seeing dimly. While an angel can take the form of a man, it is understood they are not a kind of man. It is said Jacob wrestled with God all night, who was in the form of a man.

Given that not all is material, that were is a Spirit world, how else can us material beings perceive reality but materially, such as a spirit being in the form of a material being such as us? Very important context, not to be used a a jumping board to impose Plato's ideas into unitarian literature that does not embrace such concepts.
 
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amigo de christo

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the Holy Scriptures DIRECTLY tells us "what" HE IS Before HIS coming to earth.

How is it you cannot SEE this from the Scriptures???

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us = Immanuel

When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. And now,

And now, O Father, Glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the
Glory which I had with You before the world was.
You asked a real good question my near and dear friend . You said HOW is it you cannot SEE this from the SCRIPTURES .
And now a friendly word to all
All men love but not all have the LOVE of GOD which rejoices ONLY IN TRUTH .
many love but not the truth . There is a love that cometh of the world
THEN there is the LOVE that cometh of GOD and is shed upon the hearts of His sheep .
And david , i dont have to tell you , but will anyway , THAT LOVE LOVETH TRUTH . That love HONORS GOD
and that love will never love a lie . it has a motto . LET GOD be true but every man a liar .
And i dont have to tell you , but will anyway , EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH . The lambs feast upon
the words of the LORD and that bible is FULL OF THEM WORDS my friend . IT is our meat .
It is written man shall not live by bread alone but by every LOVELY word of the LORD .
Okay so i put LOVELY before it . BUT man them words sure are lovely my friend . Many , however , sure
seems to love pretzel doctrine . Doctrine that has been twisted and salted by men and they own lusts .
 

Scott Downey

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John 1:30
Christ alive before John the Baptist (whom Christ called the greatest of the OT prophets) as Christ existed before John was born.

The Lamb of God​

29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming toward him and said:

Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 He is the one I told you about when I said, “Someone else will come, who is greater than I am, because he was alive before I was born.” 31 I didn't know who he was. But I came to baptize you with water, so that everyone in Israel would see him.

CEV
He is the one I told you about when I said, “Someone else will come, who is greater than I am, because he was alive before I was born.”
DARBY
He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he *was* before me;
DLNT
This One is the One about Whom I said, ‘A man is coming after me Who has become ahead of me, because He was before me’.
DRA
This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.
ERV
This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘There is a man coming after me who is greater than I am, because he was living even before I was born.’
EASY
This is the man that I told you about. I told you, “He comes after me, but he is greater than I am. He was already there before I was born.”
EHV
This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘The one coming after me outranks me because he existed before me.’
 

David in NJ

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You asked a real good question my near and dear friend . You said HOW is it you cannot SEE this from the SCRIPTURES .
And now a friendly word to all
All men love but not all have the LOVE of GOD which rejoices ONLY IN TRUTH .
many love but not the truth . There is a love that cometh of the world
THEN there is the LOVE that cometh of GOD and is shed upon the hearts of His sheep .
And david , i dont have to tell you , but will anyway , THAT LOVE LOVETH TRUTH . That love HONORS GOD
and that love will never love a lie . it has a motto . LET GOD be true but every man a liar .
And i dont have to tell you , but will anyway , EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH . The lambs feast upon
the words of the LORD and that bible is FULL OF THEM WORDS my friend . IT is our meat .
It is written man shall not live by bread alone but by every LOVELY word of the LORD .
Okay so i put LOVELY before it . BUT man them words sure are lovely my friend . Many , however , sure
seems to love pretzel doctrine . Doctrine that has been twisted and salted by men and they own lusts .
This is the Will of God for us = Speaking our FATHER's words to one another = DAILY
 

amigo de christo

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@Scott Downey @amigo de christo @Marvelloustime

The truth of Who is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE is EVERYWHERE in Scripture

from Genesis to Revelation = "IAM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End"

SAME LORD who walked with Adam & Eve in the Garden
From IN the beginning to the last word amen , IS MEAT to a lamb .
In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth
to the final amen in that bible is meat for our souls .
Woe i just noticed something david . IT says in the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth
IT ALSO SAYS ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY JESUS THE CHRIST . who i might also add
says I AM ALPHA and OMEGA . And may i also remind us
IN the beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was with GOD
keep reading friends
And the WORD was GOD . did i hear that correctly . SURE DID .
But men love to twist now they dont they . that is known as twisting the scrips unto THEIR OWN destruction .
ALL things were MADE BY HIM .
pretty clear to me my friend . so you see , you asked a real good question friend .
WHY cannot one see what is written in SCRIPTURE . well cause they love to sit under men who twist stuff .
 

David in NJ

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From IN the beginning to the last word amen , IS MEAT to a lamb .
In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth
to the final amen in that bible is meat for our souls .
Woe i just noticed something david . IT says in the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth
IT ALSO SAYS ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY JESUS THE CHRIST . who i might also add
says I AM ALPHA and OMEGA . And may i also remind us
IN the beginning was THE WORD and the WORD was with GOD
keep reading friends
And the WORD was GOD . did i hear that correctly . SURE DID .
But men love to twist now they dont they . that is known as twisting the scrips unto THEIR OWN destruction .
ALL things were MADE BY HIM .
pretty clear to me my friend . so you see , you asked a real good question friend .
WHY cannot one see what is written in SCRIPTURE . well cause they love to sit under men who twist stuff .
@Scott Downey @Marvelloustime

LOOK again and count = In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God
 

amigo de christo

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@Scott Downey @Marvelloustime

LOOK again and count = In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God
many read a bible that may as well say
in the beginning was my pastor and his doctrine was with him
and his doctrine is the word of GOD .
cause man its who they be following and treating as though they be GOD .
 

Scott Downey

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Here it this in a different translation, God's word translation. Sometimes it helps to gain more understanding to read it differently.
John 1

1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning.

3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.

4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity.

5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it.

6 God sent a man named John to be his messenger. 7 John came to declare the truth about the light so that everyone would become believers through his message. 8 John was not the light, but he came to declare the truth about the light.

9 The real light, which shines on everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him. Yet, the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He went to his own people, and his own people didn’t accept him. 12 However, he gave the right to become God’s children to everyone who believed in him. 13 These people didn’t become God’s children in a physical way—from a human impulse or from a husband’s desire ⌞to have a child⌟. They were born from God.

14 The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness [a] and truth.

15 (John declared the truth about him when he said loudly, “This is the person about whom I said, ‘The one who comes after me was before me because he existed before I did.’ ”)
 

amigo de christo

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So trinitarians claim. Scripture does not actually say this. Relying on a bad translation is bad form.
in the beginning was my pastor
who said this is a bad translation
YA PASTOR and or men aint GOD . why heed men who say A bad translation
and why not rather just read for thinself what is so clear to be seen by the sheep .
You do realize many make the claim oh this is a bad translation , come let me show you THE HOLY GREEK or ETC
And even they and their beloved greek and scholars DISAGREE within and amongst their own selves .
We got adventist greek , jehova greek
we got any kinda greek a man so desires and take notice that their greek and so scholar
ALWAYS seems to fit and twist THIS GREEK they claim to FIT THEIR OWN IDEA . just saying . watch out many do this . many do this .
 

amigo de christo

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@Scott Downey @amigo de christo @amadeus

LOOK again and count = In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God = 3

the FATHER Speaks Truth
the WORD/SON Speaks Truth
the HOLY SPIRIT Speaks Truth

Immanuel = Elohim with us
My friend was does ELOHIM mean . i may as well ask since i dont know .
Do it mean GOD .
 
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David in NJ

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My friend was does ELOHIM mean . i may as well ask since i dont know .
Do it mean GOD .
Strong's Lexicon
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God
 
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Scott Downey

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Strong's Lexicon
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

What Does the Name Elohim Teach Us about God?​

Elohim is the third word in the Bible in its original Hebrew. So what does it mean?

Hebrew scholars translate Elohim as God in modern English Bibles. Elohim comes from the Canaanite word El, which means “mighty one.” Elohim is the third word in the Bible in its original Hebrew. "In the beginning, God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1)
 
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Wrangler

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why heed men who say A bad translation
and why not rather just read for thinself
Exactly, starting with translations in modern English that don't have archaic words, like thinself, in it, which are far, far superior to obsolete translations. No reason to rely on the worst translation available in English today (anything with "James" in the title).
 
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