Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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Johann

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What you are looking for is a section of Scripture that offers you this false doctrine:
False doctrine?

Once you take time to reflect and study, you will come to understand that the Triune Godhead is firmly grounded in Scripture. Both the grammar and syntax of the Koine Greek and the Tanakh align with sound biblical exegesis, supporting this truth rather than relying on philosophical reasoning or human arguments.

J.
 
J

Johann

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Titus 2:13 presents translation challenges, particularly with the phrase "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." Some translations (e.g., KJV) suggest that Jesus Christ is both "God" and "Savior," while others, like the NIV, imply that the phrase refers to "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" and God the Father.
Greek Syntax and Granville Sharp's Rule

The Greek phrase in Titus 2:13 reads:
"προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ"
(prosdechomenoi tēn makarían elpida kai epiphaneian tēs doxēs tou megalou Theou kai Sōtēros hēmōn Iēsou Christou)

This can be translated as:
"waiting for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

The structure of the Greek sentence, notably the use of the conjunction καὶ (kai) between Θεοῦ (God) and Σωτῆρος (Savior), is crucial. According to Granville Sharp's Rule, when two nouns are connected by καὶ (and) and the first noun has the definite article while the second noun does not, both nouns refer to the same person.

In this case, τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ("our great God and Savior") refers to the same individual, meaning that both "God" and "Savior" are attributes of the same person, Jesus Christ.


Thus, Titus 2:13 clearly affirms that Jesus Christ is both God and Savior, a syntactical point that supports the deity of Christ.

2. Grammatical Analysis: The Use of Article and Noun Structure
In the phrase τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ("our great God and Savior"), both Θεοῦ (God) and Σωτῆρος (Savior) are governed by the definite article τοῦ (the). This construction indicates that both nouns are being ascribed to the same subject, not referring to two distinct persons.

τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ ("our great God") emphasizes the majesty and deity of the individual being referred to.
καὶ Σωτῆρος ("and Savior") further clarifies the role of the same person as the one who provides salvation.

The fact that both terms are applied to Jesus Christ, who is identified as the subject of the sentence, makes it clear that He is being called both "God" and "Savior" in this verse.

3. Context of the Epistle to Titus
The broader context of Titus 2:13 supports this understanding of the phrase. Paul, in this letter, emphasizes the role of Jesus Christ in both the salvation of believers and His divine nature. In Titus 2:11-14, Paul speaks of Christ's grace and His sacrificial work, which is tied directly to the revelation of Christ's glory at His second coming.

Titus 2:11-14: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions... waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."

In these verses, the reference to "our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" is directly connected to the salvation that Jesus brings. This connection shows the divinity of Jesus Christ and His role in salvation, affirming His position as both God and Savior.

4. Translation Variations: Theological Bias vs. Grammatical Precision
The translation issue in Titus 2:13 arises from theological bias in some modern translations.

For example, the NIV renders the phrase as "the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ," which some interpret as a possible reference to two distinct persons—God the Father and Jesus Christ. However, the grammar and syntax of the Greek text do not support this interpretation.

The KJV, on the other hand, correctly aligns with the Greek syntax, attributing both the titles of "God" and "Savior" to Jesus Christ. This rendering is supported by the rules of Greek grammar and the clear context in which Paul presents Jesus as both God and Savior.

5. Patristic and Early Christian Interpretation
The early Church Fathers consistently understood Titus 2:13 as a clear affirmation of the divinity of Christ. For instance:

Athanasius of Alexandria in his writings on the nature of Christ frequently used texts like Titus 2:13 to affirm Christ's divinity in opposition to Arian views that denied Jesus' full deity.

John Chrysostom
also commented on Titus 2:13, emphasizing that Christ is both God and Savior, reflecting the early Christian consensus on the nature of Christ.

This interpretation aligns with the theological understanding of the early Church that Jesus is truly divine, as affirmed by the grammar and syntax of this passage.


The syntactical structure of Titus 2:13, supported by Granville Sharp’s Rule and the broader context of the letter, clearly affirms that Jesus Christ is both God and Savior. The grammatical construction does not support the idea that the phrase refers to both God the Father and Jesus Christ but rather asserts the singular identity of Jesus as the divine Savior.

Modern translations that suggest a separation between the two are not following the syntactical clues provided by the Greek text. Therefore, Titus 2:13 should be understood as a strong affirmation of the full deity of Christ.

So, who is exhibiting bias here-me? Or you and your friends?

J.
 

face2face

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False doctrine?

Once you take time to reflect and study, you will come to understand that the Triune Godhead is firmly grounded in Scripture. Both the grammar and syntax of the Koine Greek and the Tanakh align with sound biblical exegesis, supporting this truth rather than relying on philosophical reasoning or human arguments.

J.
You rely too heavily on syntax and grammar, overlooking historical, cultural, and logical aspects of the text. While syntax is important for language understanding, interpreting scripture cannot be achieved without considering its context, the Jewish natuer of the hope (cultural context), and the broader theological framework. A balanced approach that includes all these aspects offers a more comprehensive and accurate view of truth and faith.

@Wrangler @APAK it's just dawned on me Johann only uses grammar and sytax to prove his points. This must explain why he was unable to understand the Lords nature because his mind is so full of sytax and grammar he cannot see the Apostles clear teaching. Actually, I doubt he even reads the posts because in his eyes he only see's "philosophical reasoning or human arguments".

He seems to lack the openness needed to genuinely seek truth, closed-minded instead.

I realize I’ve been slow to recognize this, but something about his posts has been bothering me for a while. I understand he often copies and pastes, but it’s the kind of commentary he seeks out that has led him to deceive himself.

He is the kind of person whom the Lord would correct, but instead of accepting the correction, he would likely come back with a lengthy argument to "correct" the Lord - with grammar and sytax of course.

F2F
 
J

Johann

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I realize I’ve been slow to recognize this, but something about his posts has been bothering me for a while. I understand he often copies and pastes, but it’s the kind of commentary he seeks out that has led him to deceive himself.
Great!

No commentaries, just plain, biblical exegesis!

1736252653085.png


Heb 1:8 And Hashem says to HaBen, KIS'AHCHA ELOHIM OLAM VAED SHEVET MISHOR SHEVET MALKHUTECHA ("Your throne, O G-d, will endure for ever and ever, and the scepter of justice is the scepter of your kingdom" --TEHILLIM 45:7).
Heb 1:9 AHAVTA TZEDEK VATISNA RE'SHA, AL KEN MESHAKHACHA ELOHIM, ELOHECHA SHEMEN SASSON MECHAVERECHA ("You loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; on account of this G-d, your G-d, anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions"--TEHILLIM 45:8).



Heb 1:8 and unto the Son: 'Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;
Heb 1:9 thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee—God, thy God—with oil of gladness above thy partners;'
Heb 1:10 and, 'Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens;
Heb 1:11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old,
Heb 1:12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'
Heb 1:13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, 'Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?'
Heb 1:14 are they not all spirits of service—for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?

The Use of the Old Testament to Affirm Christ’s Deity
In Hebrews 1:8-12, the author quotes several passages from the Old Testament, primarily from the Psalms, to assert the divinity and eternal nature of the Son. These references were likely familiar to Jewish audiences who viewed these texts as referring to God alone. By applying these to Jesus, the author is making a theological point about Jesus' divine status and eternal nature.

Psalm 45:6-7 ("Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever") is a royal psalm addressing the king, which the author of Hebrews applies to Jesus, suggesting not just a human king, but one who shares in God's eternal reign.

Psalm 102:25-27 ("Thou, Lord, in the beginning, didst lay the foundation of the earth") emphasizes God's act of creation, which the author of Hebrews attributes to Jesus, reinforcing the claim that Jesus is co-eternal with God and participates in the creation of the world.

These applications show how early Christians interpreted the Old Testament in light of the revelation of Jesus Christ. The cultural backdrop of Jewish monotheism makes these assertions particularly provocative-Jesus is not just an exalted human, but the divine Son who shares God's eternal throne and dominion.

2. The Jewish Understanding of Messiah and the King
The concept of a Messianic King was deeply embedded in Jewish thought. Jews anticipated a king from David’s line who would establish God's kingdom on earth, overthrow Israel's enemies, and rule with justice and righteousness. In Hebrews 1:8-9, the Son is depicted as this Messianic King, but the passage also stresses that He is more than just a human ruler—He is described as God Himself, enthroned for eternity, with a scepter of righteousness that signifies His rule over creation. This understanding would have been radical for many Jewish readers who did not yet fully comprehend the divinity of the Messiah.

The phrase "Thy throne, O God" would resonate with a Jewish audience familiar with the Messianic promises in texts like Psalm 110:1 ("The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand'").

However, the identification of the Son as God, along with His eternal reign, would challenge traditional Jewish monotheism, pushing them to rethink the nature of the Messiah.

3. The Sceptre of Righteousness and Divine Anointing
In Hebrews 1:9, the author speaks of the Son being anointed by God with "the oil of gladness above thy partners." The imagery of anointing with oil is associated with the coronation of kings in the Old Testament (e.g., 1 Samuel 16:13 when David is anointed), but here the anointing of Jesus exceeds that of all others.

The term "partners" likely refers to angelic or heavenly beings, emphasizing that Jesus is superior to all creation, even to the exalted beings who serve God. This anointing, therefore, marks Jesus as the preeminent and eternal King.

The cultural idea of anointing as conferring authority and divine favor adds weight to the argument that Jesus is not simply a ruler by inheritance, but one appointed and empowered by God Himself to reign forever.

4. Jesus as Creator and Eternal
Hebrews 1:10-12 reinforces the eternal nature of Jesus, aligning Him with the God of creation. The reference to Psalm 102:25-27 shows Jesus' involvement in the creation of the world, a claim that would have been culturally profound for early Jewish Christians. In the Jewish worldview, God alone was the Creator, and here, the author identifies Jesus with this role, not just as a participant in creation, but as the One through whom the universe was made. The imagery of the heavens and earth "perishing" while Jesus remains "the same" speaks to His unchanging nature, contrasting with the temporal and fleeting nature of the created world.

The Jewish concept of God as eternal and unchanging is pivotal here, and the author’s application of this to Jesus highlights the continuity between the Father and the Son, reinforcing their shared divine essence.

5. Jesus’ Superiority to Angels
In Hebrews 1:13-14, the author makes a definitive distinction between the Son and the angels. Psalm 110:1 is cited to affirm that no angel has ever been invited to sit at God’s right hand, a position of supreme honor and authority. The cultural significance here lies in the Jewish reverence for angels, as they were seen as powerful, important messengers and servants of God. However, the author argues that Jesus is not merely another angelic being but is far superior to them, possessing a unique and exalted position.

The idea that angels are "ministering spirits" sent to serve those who will inherit salvation emphasizes the hierarchical nature of the spiritual realm: Jesus, the Son, is at the top, followed by angels, and then humanity. This serves to elevate Jesus above the angels, reflecting the early Christian belief in His preeminent status within the heavenly hierarchy.
6. Theological Implications for the Early Christian Community

Culturally, the early Christian community was navigating the tensions between their Jewish heritage and their belief in the divinity of Jesus. These verses in Hebrews 1 served not only to assert the full deity and eternal nature of Jesus but also to challenge Jewish monotheism in a profound way.

The claim that Jesus is the eternal Creator, seated at God’s right hand, would have been seen as blasphemous by some Jewish leaders, yet it was a foundational doctrine for the Christian faith, shaping their understanding of Jesus as both fully God and fully man.

In summary, Hebrews 1:8-14 communicates the supremacy of Jesus, drawing on Jewish cultural understandings of kingship, righteousness, creation, and angels, and applies them to Jesus in a way that affirms His divine identity and eternal reign. This would have been a radical and transformative message for the early Christian audience, who were still reconciling their faith in Christ with their Jewish roots.


Exegete this for me WITHOUT your bias-can you do it?

J.
 
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face2face

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The grammatical construction does not support the idea that the phrase refers to both God the Father and Jesus Christ but rather asserts the singular identity of Jesus as the divine Savior.
You mean like here:
  1. 2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort."
  2. Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."
  3. 1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
  4. Romans 15:6 - "That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Do you think the translators were justified in questioning the structure of Titus 2:13, given the existing precedent?

No need to answer - I'll go with the Translators on this one!

Titus 2:13 says:
  • King James Version (KJV):
    "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."
  • New International Version (NIV):
    "while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
  • New Living Translation (NLT):
    "We are looking forward to that wonderful event when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed."
  • English Standard Version (ESV):
    "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
  • Christian Standard Bible (CSB):
    "while we wait for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
  • New American Standard Bible (NASB):
    "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
Hmmm Johann, in Australia we call what you just did as one - pulling a furphy!

F2F
 

Wrangler

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@Wrangler @APAK it's just dawned on me Johann only uses grammar and sytax to prove his points. This must explain why he was unable to understand the Lords nature
The Lord's nature is revealed many times and ways. He is willfully ignorant of the Lord's nature. Take Acts 3:13, for example.
The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus

P1. God is the subject of the sentence doing the acting. He glorifies.
P2. The servant (Jesus) is glorified and does not glorify. The object of the sentence is God's servant (Jesus).
C. The servant Jesus is NOT God.

If Jesus were God, why would he be described as the servant of God? This makes no sense. Regarding grammar and sytax, Jesus is always referred to as being OF God - word, son, lamb, servant, priest, apostle. The preposition OF is not a verb, like IS. This is proof text Jesus is NOT God.
 
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face2face

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Great!

No commentaries, just plain, biblical exegesis!

View attachment 55975

Exegete this for me WITHOUT your bias-can you do it?

J.
Why would you again choose a verse which has known translation issues?

Is it your goal tonight to try and rewrite every difficult passage and twist it into the Nicene Creed?

You (Jesus) have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. So God, your God, has anointed you over your companions with the oil of rejoicing.” Heb 1:9.

This suggests that Christ is not the "Eternal Son," as the Father is described as the God of Jesus. Therefore, Jesus cannot be considered "Very God" in this context. A parallel verse, John 20:17, also supports the idea that Jesus refers to God as His Father, further emphasizing a distinction between Jesus and God the Father.

How ironic! I point out your tendency to selectively focus on grammar, and yet you completely overlook the very next verse!

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J

Johann

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King James Version (KJV):
"Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."
2:11 Hath appeared [epephanē]. “Did appear,” the first Epiphany (the Incarnation).
Second aorist passive indicative of [epiphainō], old verb, in N.T. here, 3:4; Lu 1:79; Ac 27:20.
Bringing salvation [sōtērios]. Old adjective from [sōtēr] (Saviour), here alone in N.T. except
[to sōtērion] (salvation, “the saving act”) in Lu 2:30; 3:6; Eph 6:17. Instructing [paideuousa].
See 1Ti 1:20. Ungodliness[asebeian]. See Ro 1:18. Worldly lusts[tas kosmikas epithumias].
Aristotle and Plutarch use [kosmikos] (from [kosmos] about the universe as in Heb 9:1 about
the earthly. Here it has alone in N.T. the sense of evil “in this present age” as with [kosmos]
in 1Jo 2:16. The three adverbs set off the opposite (soberly [sōphronōs], righteously [dikaiōs],
godly [eusebōs].
2:13 Looking for [prosdechomenoi]. Present middle participle of [prosdechomai], old
verb, the one used of Simeon (Lu 2:25) and others (Lu 2:38) who were looking for the Messiah. The blessed hope and appearing of the glory [tēn makarian elpida kai epiphaneian
tēs doxēs]. The word [epiphaneia] (used by the Greeks of the appearance of the gods, from
[epiphanēs, epiphainō] occurs in 2Ti 1:10 of the Incarnation of Christ, the first Epiphany
(like the verb [epephanē], Tit 2:11), but here of the second Epiphany of Christ or the second
7
Chapter 2
coming as in 1Ti 6:14; 2Ti 4:1, 8. In 2Th 2:8 both [epiphaneia] and [parousia] (the usual
word) occur together of the second coming. Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ
[tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou]. This is the necessary meaning of the one
article with [theou] and [sōtēros] just as in 2Pe 1:1, 11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786.
Westcott and Hort read [Christou Iēsou]

According to the grace (κατα την χαριν). Not merely standard, but also aim (Robertson, Grammar, p. 609).

Of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ (του θεου ημων κα κυριου Ιησου Χριστου). Here strict syntax requires, since there is only one article with θεου and κυριου that one person be meant, Jesus Christ, as is certainly true in Tit 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1 (Robertson, Grammar, p.786). This otherwise conclusive syntactical argument, admitted by Schmiedel, is weakened a bit by the fact that Κυριος is often employed as a proper name without the article, a thing not true of σωτηρ in Tit 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1 . So in Eph 5:5 εν τη βασιλεια του Χριστου κα θεου the natural meaning is

in the Kingdom of Christ and God regarded as one, but here again θεος, like Κυριος, often occurs as a proper name without the article. So it has to be admitted that here Paul may mean "according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ," though he may also mean "according to the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ."

Furthermore--


great God and. FS93A, +Gen_1:26, A. T. Robertson notes that as early as 1798 Granville Sharp laid down a rule which has not since been successfully discredited, that when two nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participle) of the same case are connected by "and" (kai, in Greek), nouns of personal description (respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill), if the article "the" in any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the second noun always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes a farther description of the first named person. This principle is not claimed, however, for proper names or to the plural number.

Thus "the apostle and high priest of our confession" is one person, Jesus (Heb_3:1). John is referred to as "your brother, and companion" in Rev_1:9, a reference to just one person. Such expressions as "the God and Father" (Rom_15:6, 1Co_15:24, 2Co_1:3; 2Co_11:31, Gal_1:4, Eph_5:20, Php_4:20, 1Th_1:3; 1Th_3:11; 1Th_3:13, Rev_1:6) and "the Lord and Father" (Jas_1:27; Jas_3:9) are all used of one person, not two. So likewise "the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2Pe_2:20; 2Pe_3:2) is a reference to one person.

The introduction of the word "our" in 2Pe_1:11; 2Pe_3:18 does not affect the idiom. Following the same principle for the identical construction in Greek for 2Pe_1:1, "our God and Saviour Jesus Christ" is a reference to a single person, not two. So here at Tit_2:13, the same construction is correctly rendered "our God and Saviour Jesus Christ," and the reference is to one person, not two.

Attention to this construction thus yields two texts in support of the Deity of Christ that were not evident in some English translations

(see Robertson,
The Minister and His Greek New Testament, "The Greek Article and the Deity of Christ," pp. 61-68).


When the Greek article occurs before both nouns, two persons are meant, as "let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican," two separate persons are implied (Mat_18:17, cited by William Hendrickson, Comm. on 1-2 Timothy and Titus, p. 374).

Those who deny the validity of this grammatical principle are faced with the problem that if two persons are meant, then Paul is predicting the simultaneous glorious advent of both the Father and the Son at Christ’s second coming. Although the advent of the Father is supportable from other prophecies (%Dan_7:22, **Zec_14:5, *Eph_1:10), the simultaneous advent of the Father and the Son is not usually incorporated into the prophetic system of those who understand this passage to refer to two persons. +Gen_1:26, Neh_1:5; +Neh_8:6; Neh_9:32, +*Isa_9:6; Isa_19:20, Dan_2:45; Dan_9:4, *Luk_9:26, *Jhn_1:1; Jhn_10:30; +*Jhn_20:28, +*Act_20:28, +*Rom_9:5, *Php_2:6, Col_1:15-20; *Col_2:9, 2Th_1:12 g. +*Heb_1:8, **2Pe_1:1 g. **1Jn_5:20.
Hmmm Johann, in Australia we call what you just did as one - pulling a furphy!
You have been debunked-successfully.

tn The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, theos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, sōtēr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.

Repent and believe the Messiah of the Scripture.

J.
 

APAK

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You rely too heavily on syntax and grammar, overlooking historical, cultural, and logical aspects of the text. While syntax is important for language understanding, interpreting scripture cannot be achieved without considering its context, the Jewish natuer of the hope (cultural context), and the broader theological framework. A balanced approach that includes all these aspects offers a more comprehensive and accurate view of truth and faith.

@Wrangler @APAK it's just dawned on me Johann only uses grammar and sytax to prove his points. This must explain why he was unable to understand the Lords nature because his mind is so full of sytax and grammar he cannot see the Apostles clear teaching. Actually, I doubt he even reads the posts because in his eyes he only see's "philosophical reasoning or human arguments".

He seems to lack the openness needed to genuinely seek truth, closed-minded instead.

I realize I’ve been slow to recognize this, but something about his posts has been bothering me for a while. I understand he often copies and pastes, but it’s the kind of commentary he seeks out that has led him to deceive himself.

He is the kind of person whom the Lord would correct, but instead of accepting the correction, he would likely come back with a lengthy argument to "correct" the Lord - with grammar and sytax of course.

F2F
Seen this in Johann's writing a while back. He is so overly-obsessed with finding the right grammar and the standard usage of various words drawn from reference books, articles and from other folks of his cloth that are under study that he loses sight of the real/intended meanings of scripture and especially the context; and he usually ignores that completely.

To be fair, most Trinitarians and Binitarians don't do context. It will muddle up their own-created masterpieces of narrow-minded thoughts, from cherry-picked single verses that cannot be disturbed at all costs. In fact I do not think they are so much interested in knowing scripture over making slogans and catchy phrases and meanings that fit in well with their exotic models of God and his Son.

They just keep beating the same old drum and spouting out the same 20-50 verses of misused scripture, and sooner or later they will convince themselves and others in what they spout out is truth. And Johann has bought his lies a long time ago. He is too far gone to realize the truth in scripture I'm afraid.
 
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Wrangler

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We seem to be miscommunicating. There is NO sense of father that MEANS brother. I've said so twice now.
I hear that. I did not hear an admission that your previous claim that by definition, the syllogism is NOT wrong, which was your initial claim.
But there is a sense of father, and of brother, that is not biological.
There you go again! Interjecting a reference (biological) that is not in the syllogism.
And as a result of this, God could be our Father and Jesus our Brother yet both be God, because -- for the last time -- these are not mutually exclusive when taken in a nonbiological sense.

Totally wrong. They are mutually exclusive terms, by definition but not reference. My brother can be a father but it does not follow that he is my father. (If you are talking nonbiologically, then you are talking figuratively. This is just another Appeal to Diversion)

Given that God is our father, then he is not our brother. As you admit, there is no sense of father than means brother. Jesus is our brother and no verse says he is our father. This proves he is NOT God, because, there is no sense of brother than means father, as you admit!

Knowing this, you resort to speculation, "could be.". You are invoking a circular reference, starting with your conclusion. Again:
P1. God is our father (and not our brother).
P2. Jesus is our brother (and not our father).
C. Jesus is NOT God.

The syllogism is valid. Just because deductive reasoning, syllogistic logic, supports a conclusion contrary to your theology does not make the logic incorrect.

Your circular reference, appeal to diversion is not logical.

I'm finding this discussion, as I suspect you are, somewhat exhausting at this point. Let's move on. Brother.
On the contrary, this exchange beautifully shows trinitarian anti-logic. :watching and waiting:

But I understand you wanting to move on.
 
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face2face

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Seen this in Johann's writing a while back. He is so overly-obsessed with finding the right grammar and the standard usage of various words drawn from reference books, articles and from other folks of his cloth that are under study that he loses sight of the real/intended meanings of scripture and especially the context; and he usually ignores that completely.

To be fair, most Trinitarians and Binitarians don't do context. It will muddle up their own-created masterpieces of narrow-minded thoughts, from cherry-picked single verses that cannot be disturbed at all costs. In fact I do not think they are so much interested in knowing scripture over making slogans and catchy phrases and meanings that fit in well with their exotic models of God and his Son.

They just keep beating the same old drum and spouting out the same 20-50 verses of misused scripture, and sooner or later they will convince themselves and others in what they spout out is truth. And Johann has bought his lies a long time ago. He is too far gone to realize the truth in scripture I'm afraid.
I’m at a loss for words :doldrums:, APAK. It’s clear to everyone, perhaps even those of his perspective in this forum, that he needs to set aside his current practices and start over with the Milk of the Word.

F2F
 
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Wrangler

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I’m at a loss for words :doldrums:, APAK. It’s clear to everyone, perhaps even those of his perspective in this forum, that he needs to set aside his current practices and start over with the Milk of the Word.

F2F
Doing so takes humility, the recognition to need to look at God’s word anew, from the eyes of a babe.
 
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Johann

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I’m at a loss for words :doldrums:, APAK. It’s clear to everyone, perhaps even those of his perspective in this forum, that he needs to set aside his current practices and start over with the Milk of the Word.

F2F
May the Lord Jesus Christ be the judge between us and your comrades-APAK is on ignore, for good reason, you are next.

J.
 
J

Johann

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Google the meaning of "plurality within unity" yourself and you'll see that I'm right.
Correct-

Biblical Examples
The Trinity: The most notable example in Christian theology is the Triune God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—three distinct persons, yet one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Matthew 28:19). Each person is fully God, sharing the same divine essence while maintaining distinct roles and relationships.

Marriage: Genesis 2:24 states, “...they shall become one flesh,” describing the union of husband and wife. Two distinct individuals are united in a covenant relationship, representing a form of unity amidst diversity.

The Body of Christ: 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 describes believers as individual members of one body, with Christ as the head. Though diverse in gifts and roles, they function together as a single organism.

2. Natural Examples
Water: H₂O exists in three forms—solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (steam). These forms are distinct yet share the same chemical composition, demonstrating unity in diversity.

A Family: A family consists of multiple individuals (parents, children, etc.), each with unique identities

, but collectively they form one familial unit.

3. Mathematical Examples
A Triangle: A triangle is a single geometric figure composed of three sides and three angles. Each part is distinct, yet all are integral to the unity of the triangle.

Sets in Mathematics: A set can include distinct elements but is referred to as one collective entity, such as {a, b, c}, which represents a unified whole.

4. Biological Examples
The Human Body: Composed of various systems (nervous, respiratory, circulatory) and millions of cells, the body functions as one cohesive unit.

A Tree: A tree has roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves, each with unique functions. Together, they form one living organism.

5. Social Examples
A Nation: A country comprises diverse citizens, states, or regions, yet functions as one unified entity.

A Team: A sports team includes individuals with different skills and roles who work together for a common goal, forming one unit.

6. Scientific Examples
Atoms: An atom consists of protons, neutrons, and electrons, each distinct but forming a single unified structure.

The Solar System: A system of planets, moons, and other celestial bodies revolves around the sun, creating a unified structure despite the individuality of its components.

Each example helps illustrate how the concept of plurality within unity can be understood across various domains of life and thought.

J.
 

Scott Downey

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Zechariah has also proven the Lord who stretched out the heavens, is the one for whom they paid 30 pieces of silver and who they pierced

chapter 11
7 So I fed the flock for slaughter, [c]in particular the poor of the flock. I took for myself two staffs: the one I called [d]Beauty, and the other I called [e]Bonds; and I fed the flock. 8 I [f]dismissed the three shepherds in one month. My soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me. 9 Then I said, “I will not feed you. Let what is dying die, and what is perishing perish. Let those that are left eat each other’s flesh.” 10 And I took my staff, [g]Beauty, and cut it in two, that I might break the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day. Thus the[h] poor of the flock, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the Lord. 12 Then I said to them, “If it is [i]agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter.
14 Then I cut in two my other staff, [j]Bonds, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

chapter 12
1 The [a]burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of [b]drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day,” says the Lord, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.’ 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.

7 “The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Mourning for the Pierced One​

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of [c]Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
 
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Scott Downey

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Matthew 27​

Judas Hangs Himself​

27 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.”

7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners.

8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”[a]
 

APAK

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Correct-

Biblical Examples
The Trinity: The most notable example in Christian theology is the Triune God—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—three distinct persons, yet one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Matthew 28:19). Each person is fully God, sharing the same divine essence while maintaining distinct roles and relationships.

Marriage: Genesis 2:24 states, “...they shall become one flesh,” describing the union of husband and wife. Two distinct individuals are united in a covenant relationship, representing a form of unity amidst diversity.

The Body of Christ: 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 describes believers as individual members of one body, with Christ as the head. Though diverse in gifts and roles, they function together as a single organism.

2. Natural Examples
Water: H₂O exists in three forms—solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (steam). These forms are distinct yet share the same chemical composition, demonstrating unity in diversity.

A Family: A family consists of multiple individuals (parents, children, etc.), each with unique identities

, but collectively they form one familial unit.

3. Mathematical Examples
A Triangle: A triangle is a single geometric figure composed of three sides and three angles. Each part is distinct, yet all are integral to the unity of the triangle.

Sets in Mathematics: A set can include distinct elements but is referred to as one collective entity, such as {a, b, c}, which represents a unified whole.

4. Biological Examples
The Human Body: Composed of various systems (nervous, respiratory, circulatory) and millions of cells, the body functions as one cohesive unit.

A Tree: A tree has roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves, each with unique functions. Together, they form one living organism.

5. Social Examples
A Nation: A country comprises diverse citizens, states, or regions, yet functions as one unified entity.

A Team: A sports team includes individuals with different skills and roles who work together for a common goal, forming one unit.

6. Scientific Examples
Atoms: An atom consists of protons, neutrons, and electrons, each distinct but forming a single unified structure.

The Solar System: A system of planets, moons, and other celestial bodies revolves around the sun, creating a unified structure despite the individuality of its components.

Each example helps illustrate how the concept of plurality within unity can be understood across various domains of life and thought.

J.
Even from a much wider perspective, this expression is a trojan horse that will deceptively invade and overtake you minds and spirit to force compliance for world religious compromise.

'Plurality within unity' is definitely a concept that can be interpreted through various religious, political and philosophical lenses, including socialist thought. The idea emphasizes the coexistence of diverse groups (gods) and values within a unified framework (one so-called divine substance or essence), aiming to balance competing interests/factions/powers and foster a common good. It began in the late 1st century and especially around 325 AD and on, for today and tomorrow.

The common good of accepting a 3 persons god as the one worldly god for the good of humanity's world religious goals at least.

Sounds like the phrase is a religious-political-socialistic cause for compromise, that I for one will not have any part of...
 

amigo de christo

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Matthew 27​

Judas Hangs Himself​

27 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.

3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

“What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”

5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.”

7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners.

8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel,

10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”[a]
a special note , a friendly reminder to all i now write .
Judas was as though he was one of them . He did not come from outside
but from within . REMEMBER THAT well . cause we got us many decked in wool
and our betrayal is at the door . We are being decieved and will be betrayed , FROM THOSE WITHIN .
Intefaith has come to decieve and to merge all as one with a common goal
they believe will usher in peace n safety of the world .
The most dangerous , the most deceptive , they who hold the power
ARE THE WOLVES IN WOOL who have crept into Christendom and has transformed them
from within . And it and they will hate all who resist the lie , all who do not conform to the lie
 

amigo de christo

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Even from a much wider perspective, this expression is a trojan horse that will deceptively invade and overtake you minds and spirit to force compliance for world religious compromise.

'Plurality within unity' is definitely a concept that can be interpreted through various religious, political and philosophical lenses, including socialist thought. The idea emphasizes the coexistence of diverse groups (gods) and values within a unified framework (one so-called divine substance or essence), aiming to balance competing interests/factions/powers and foster a common good. It began in the late 1st century and especially around 325 AD and on, for today and tomorrow.

The common good of accepting a 3 persons god as the one worldly god for the good of humanity's world religious goals at least.

Sounds like the phrase is a religious-political-socialistic cause for compromise, that I for one will not have any part of...
tell that to interfaith . What a socilaistic anti christ lie that one is . yet
it seems to me both sides are going right into its concepts .
MANY have already COMPROMISED . THE VERY GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF
HIS words of TRUTH have already been compromised and interfaith hides not the lie .
Its leaders have said aloud for all to hear , that every single religion on earth , every man
has his way to GOD . That they all are coming to GOD in different ways . TALK ABOUT ANTI CHRIST .
but many buy this lie and more and more are headed RIGHT INTO IT
as they holler love , world peace n safety , let us be one , we shall have peace .
NO , they WILL NOT HAVE THE VERY PEACE they beleived this satanic false lovey do lie promised them .
THIS IS anti christ peace . THIS is peace that cometh of the world , NOT GOD .
HIS PEACE is JESUS THE CHRIST the only name whereby a man can be reconciled and have the PEACE OF GOD .
NO sir . their beloved golden bull of what they all beleived was the solution , was so loving , was good for humanity
WILL END IN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION upon them all ON THE DAY OF THE LORD they and their false love common ground lie
DENIED . we better all watch out .
 
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