Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

@RedFan Out of interest how have you found the Trinity debate since the rule was lifted?

 

[RedFan]

@RedFan Out of interest how have you found the Trinity debate since the rule was lifted?

Superficial at best. You?

 

[RLT63]

I don't like their interpration of the 144,000 which tends to promote a "works based" religion. Reminds me a little of the sons of Zebedee.

F2F

I don't see how they think that 144,000 Jews are actually JW elders

 

[face2face]

Superficial at best. You?

I've been disappointed with the level of knowledge and understanding on the subject overall.

A lot of unanswered questions in these threads that is attempted should draw sincere believers to a more solid foundation.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I don't see how they think that 144,000 Jews are actually JW elders

They perceive themselves as similar to Israel, viewing themselves as witnesses of God. I have researched their origins and early beliefs, which have evolved significantly over time.

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

This is true, Pro.

Jehovah's Witnesses in this forum have been shown to be incorrect on several minor doctrines, such as the teachings on Adam and Eve, Genesis 3:15, God's future plans for natural Israel, and others.

As an organization, it has both strengths and weaknesses.

F2F

All I see is weakness. The inability to admit wrongness being a big weakness of theirs.

 

[Taken]

I’m not sure how many times I need to answer the question for you to be satisfied. Jesus is shown in Scripture praying more than once.

I ask again, because you do not answer.
Your answers should be simply Yes Or No Or Never Or Once, and a Number.

I didn’t ask about praying…or what Jesus did.

Do you claim your soul IS Saved…?
If so how many Times did you lose Your Salvation….?
And how many times was you soul Saved…Again?

Do you claim your spirit IS born again?
If so how many Times did you lose your “quickening”(spirit re-birth)?
And how many times was your Spirit quickened (re-birthed) Again?

 

[face2face]

All I see is weakness. The inability to admit wrongness being a big weakness of theirs.

I believe we all struggle with this, but Jehovah's Witnesses are particularly confident in their doctrines and rehearse them consistently, which makes them especially convincing to those who are more vulnerable (weak minded).

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

I believe we all struggle with this, but Jehovah's Witnesses are particularly confident in their doctrines and rehearse them consistently, which makes them especially convincing to those who are more vulnerable (weak minded).

F2F

Perhaps, I should have just insulted them or not spoke to them. They have shunned me, and I am not one of their members. Oh, what will I ever do.

 

[face2face]

Perhaps, I should have just insulted them or not spoke to them. They have shunned me, and I am not one of their members. Oh, what will I ever do.

As we see in this Trinity discussion, many people hold deeply entrenched beliefs that they refuse to change, no matter the evidence. Over the past twelve months, I’ve had hundreds of conversations with Johann, and there are likely countless unanswered questions that he simply cannot address. All we can do is present our understanding based on the Bible and ensure that it is the Bible alone that serves as our source of truth.

Some may claim to have heard voices, while others rely on external sources—some knowingly, and others out of ignorance. In the end, Christ will return and definitively determine who held the truth and who did not.

If you fall into the "did not" category, you’d better ensure you remain teachable!

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

I don't see how they think that 144,000 Jews are actually JW elders

They 12,000 from each "nation" of Israel who were redeemed, literally.

 

[RLT63]

They 12,000 from each "nation" of Israel who were redeemed, literally.

Yep

 

[MonoBiblical]

As we see in this Trinity discussion, many people hold deeply entrenched beliefs that they refuse to change, no matter the evidence. Over the past twelve months, I’ve had hundreds of conversations with Johann, and there are likely countless unanswered questions that he simply cannot address. All we can do is present our understanding based on the Bible and ensure that it is the Bible alone that serves as our source of truth.

Some may claim to have heard voices, while others rely on external sources—some knowingly, and others out of ignorance. In the end, Christ will return and definitively determine who held the truth and who did not.

If you fall into the "did not" category, you’d better ensure you remain teachable!

F2F

Perhaps, if I could dissuade others of original sin dogmas and emphasize the law more. Supposedly works of will not get you there. Works that are the law is what it really means.

 

[face2face]

Yep

I believe the number is symbolic of 12 (Jews) x 12 (Gentiles) who represent the sands without number! Actually if you look at the numbers in Revelation which lead up to the 144,000 it's interesting!

 

[Grailhunter]

Perhaps, if I could dissuade others of original sin dogmas and emphasize the law more. Supposedly works of will not get you there. Works that are the law is what it really means.

I have over a hundred scriptures that proves the one God formula for the Trinity is false, either directly or in action or in the storyline of the Gospels or Christ Himself explaining what the “oneness” actually means.

 

[RLT63]

I believe the number is symbolic of 12 (Jews) x 12 (Gentiles) who represent the sands without number! Actually if you look at the numbers in Revelation which lead up to the 144,000 it's interesting!

It literally says 12,000 from the tribe of..., and lists 12 tribes of Israel. It says nothing about Gentiles

Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:

5 ¶ From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand,

6 from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand,

7 from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

 

[face2face]

Summary:

For the Trinity to be valid, there are irreconcilable teachings that Trinitarians cannot explain: Here are some which I have taken from this discussion

1. The true nature of Christ cmp to claimed dualism (This has no evidence at all!)
2. Separate Persons cmp to the confusion of Persons
3. HS is the Power of God cmp The HS is a Person of the Godhead (This is by far the weakest link in the chain!)
4. God manifestation cmp to Incarnation
5. Christ the Firstborn (begotten) cmp to Christ's pre-existence

I've found points 1 & 3 as being the most indefensible as seen by the lack of attempts to deal with the hard questions!

Point 2 is the real struggle for if the Trinitarian has settled for the confusion how can the accept the clarity which comes with seeing God and Christ as Separate beings? They need to unlearn the learned confusion of the Godhead before such clarity can be achieved.

Point 4 is difficult as the understanding of God being in Christ (Biblical) and God being Christ (Not Biblical) is the most difficult to prove / disprove.

Point 5 is easy to show Christ was a created being (from the dead!)

F2F

 

[face2face]

It literally says 12,000 from the tribe of..., and lists 12 tribes of Israel. It says nothing about Gentiles

Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel:

5 ¶ From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand,

6 from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand,

7 from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

The 144,000 represent the total number of the redeemed. This is evident from Revelation 14:3, where they are referred to as "the redeemed" (those acquired by the Lamb through the ransom, or price paid, namely His blood) "from the earth."

The exact number of the redeemed, purchased with the precious blood of Christ, "as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:18-19), is described in Revelation 7:9 as "a great multitude which no man could number."

Numbers in Scripture often carry symbolic meaning (e.g., Revelation 13:18). It is clear from the subsequent verses of this chapter that this number should not be taken literally, as it consists of an equal number from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. Therefore, the total of 144,000 is symbolic.

The number 144,000 is derived from the square of twelve, symbolizing perfect government. It represents the idea of fixedness and complete fulfillment (12 x 12), specifically related to Israel, reflecting the Israelite nature of the hope. The priestly and martial aspects of Israel are already symbolized in the twenty-four elders and four living creatures in Revelation 4. Now, the broader organization of Israel is highlighted. While twelve represents the tribes of Israel, its square, 144,000, signifies the families of Israel (see Zechariah 12:12-14). The Messianic Psalm (Psalm 68:6) declares that "the solitary" will be set in "families." These "families" will be based on Israel, politically organized in the coming age.

Hope that helps

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

I have over a hundred scriptures that proves the one God formula for the Trinity is false, either directly or in action or in the storyline of the Gospels or Christ Himself explaining what the “oneness” actually means.

I suspect many ones that're Hebraisms.

 

[RLT63]

The 144,000 represent the total number of the redeemed. This is evident from Revelation 14:3, where they are referred to as "the redeemed" (those acquired by the Lamb through the ransom, or price paid, namely His blood) "from the earth."

The exact number of the redeemed, purchased with the precious blood of Christ, "as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:18-19), is described in Revelation 7:9 as "a great multitude which no man could number."

Numbers in Scripture often carry symbolic meaning (e.g., Revelation 13:18). It is clear from the subsequent verses of this chapter that this number should not be taken literally, as it consists of an equal number from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. Therefore, the total of 144,000 is symbolic.

The number 144,000 is derived from the square of twelve, symbolizing perfect government. It represents the idea of fixedness and complete fulfillment (12 x 12), specifically related to Israel, reflecting the Israelite nature of the hope. The priestly and martial aspects of Israel are already symbolized in the twenty-four elders and four living creatures in Revelation 4. Now, the broader organization of Israel is highlighted. While twelve represents the tribes of Israel, its square, 144,000, signifies the families of Israel (see Zechariah 12:12-14). The Messianic Psalm (Psalm 68:6) declares that "the solitary" will be set in "families." These "families" will be based on Israel, politically organized in the coming age.

Hope that helps

F2F

I hope this helps, it means what it says.