Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[APAK]

Amazing!


Greek Text:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν.
πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν.

Key Verbs and Syntax:

ἦν (was) – Imperfect indicative active of εἰμί, showing the eternal preexistence of the Logos ("was" continuous action in the past).
ἐγένετο (were made) – Aorist indicative middle of γίνομαι, meaning "came into being" or "were created." The aorist tense marks this as a completed action.
δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him) – The preposition διά with the genitive indicates agency, affirming that Jesus (the Logos) was the active agent in creation.

Colossians 1:16-17
Greek Text:
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·
καὶ αὐτὸς ἐστὶν πρὸ πάντων, καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν.

Key Verbs and Syntax:

ἐκτίσθη (were created) – Aorist indicative passive of κτίζω, indicating that all things were created "in" or "by" Him (ἐν αὐτῷ).

The passive voice shows the creative action originating from the Father but executed through the Son.

δι’ αὐτοῦ (through Him) – The preposition διά with the genitive again highlights Christ as the means or agent of creation.

ἔκτισται (have been created) – Perfect indicative passive of κτίζω, signifying a completed action with continuing results; all creation remains dependent on Him.

συνέστηκεν (consist) – Perfect indicative active of συνίστημι, meaning "hold together" or "stand together," showing Christ’s sustaining power over all creation.

Hebrews 1:2
Greek Text:
ἐπ’ ἐσχάτου τῶν ἡμερῶν τούτων ἐλάλησεν ἡμῖν ἐν Υἱῷ, ὃν ἔθηκεν κληρονόμον πάντων, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας·

Key Verbs and Syntax:

ἐποίησεν (He made) – Aorist indicative active of ποιέω, directly attributing the act of making (creating) the worlds (τοὺς αἰῶνας) to God through the Son.

δι’ οὗ (through whom) – As in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, the preposition διά with the genitive reinforces the Son’s active role as the agent of creation.

In him were created (en autōi ektisthē). Paul now gives the reason (hoti, for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (Col_1:16f.). It is the constative aorist passive indicative ektisthē (from ktizō, old verb, to found, to create (Rom_1:25).

This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in Jhn_1:3; Heb_1:2 and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy.

The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. God wrought through “the Son of his love.” All earthly dignities are included.
Have been created (ektistai). Perfect passive indicative of ktizō, “stand created,” “remain created.” The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe.

Through him (di' autou). As the intermediate and sustaining agent. He had already used en autōi (in him) as the sphere of activity.

Hebrews 1:10 (citing Psalm 102:25)
Greek Text:
καί, Σὺ κατ’ ἀρχὰς, Κύριε, τὴν γῆν ἐθεμελίωσας, καὶ ἔργα τῶν χειρῶν σου εἰσὶν οἱ οὐρανοί·

Key Verbs and Syntax:

ἐθεμελίωσας (You laid the foundation) – Aorist indicative active of θεμελιόω, emphasizing Christ’s foundational work in creation as a completed action.
ἔργα (works) – Nominative plural, describing the heavens as "the works of Your hands," a direct acknowledgment of Jesus’ creative action.

Lord (Kurie). In the lxx, not in the Hebrew. Quotation (the sixth) from Psa_102:26-28 through Heb_1:10-12. Note emphatic position of su here at the beginning as in Heb_1:11-12 (su de). This Messianic Psalm pictures the Son in his Creative work and in his final triumph.
Hast laid the foundation (ethemeliōsas). First aorist active of themelioō, old verb from themelios (foundation) for which see Col_1:23.


1 Corinthians 8:6
Greek Text:
ἀλλ’ ἡμῖν εἷς Θεὸς ὁ Πατήρ, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς αὐτόν· καὶ εἷς Κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, καὶ ἡμεῖς δι’ αὐτοῦ.

Key Verbs and Syntax:

δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα (through whom are all things) – Again, διά with the genitive specifies Christ as the agent of creation.
τὰ πάντα (all things) – Neuter plural, signifying the totality of creation brought into being through Christ.

Through him (di' autou). En autōi (in him) For Him---Gospel 101 basics-so simple a child can understand this!

J.

What a waste of time and effort in juggling, distorting, forcing inequalities, especially attached to Christ. It's all trash Johann. You cannot see the old Genesis creation of natural things from the new spiritual creation in Christ. Creation was waiting eagerly and yearning for it to happen and it happened in Christ. And you cannot see this. You want to go back to the original Genesis of rocks and water and animals again. Colossians and other parts of scripture speak to the new creation in Christ (the 1st creation and new glorified person from the dead) Johann....look forward and not backwards. Christ is Risen for God's sake!

 

[Wrangler]

@Wrangler, do you have any response to the part in post #703 about God being one in Essence and three in Persons?

No Scripture verse teaches this. There is no God the son. There is no God the Holy Spirit. There is only God the Father and this is repeated in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

Why speculate contrary to what Scripture teaches?

 

[Johann]

What a waste of time and effort in juggling, distorting, forcing inequalities, especially attached to Christ. It's all trash Johann. You cannot see the old Genesis creation of natural things from the new spiritual creation in Christ. Creation was waiting eagerly and yearning for it to happen and it happened in Christ. And you cannot see this. You want to go back to the original Genesis of rocks and water and animals again. Colossians and other parts of scripture speak to the new creation in Christ (the 1st creation and new glorified person from the dead) Johann....look forward and not backwards. Christ is Risen for God's sake!

Stick to what I have posted.

J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You say that the Holy Trinity doctrine is three separate gods, but trinitarians do not. The words "being" and "person" can be used interchangeably in many contexts, but they are not completely synonymous.

Essence
The being of God, or what God is. The word "essence" comes from the Latin "esse", meaning "to be", so "one essence" means "one being".

Person
The mode of existence of God, or who God is. The term "person" comes from the Latin "persona", which has multiple meanings, including mask, role of an actor, and self-existence.

• One God: God is one being in Essence
  
  
• Three Persons: God is three distinct Persons (the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit)
  
  
• United as one: The three Persons are united as one in Essence

God is one in Essence and three in Person. The Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit are not three separate gods with three different essences, but rather three distinct Persons, each working differently and yet not working in a contrary fashion, united as one because they are the same Essence: love. "[...] for God is love" (1 Jn. 4:8)



Did you mean to ask me that, because the question of mine that you're replying to is me asking where in Gen. 1:26 is it implied that God is addressing the angels, and your question isn't an answer to what I asked?

If God is three persons in one essence, then why does John treat them as distinctly different? If we assume that God is three persons in one essence, then why does John say that the Word became flesh?

Let me ask this a different way. Trinitarians use the term "Godhead" to indicate the one God. If John wanted to say that the Godhead became flesh, why didn't he say so? What I mean is, why do Trinitarians believe, on the one hand, that God is one in three persons, while at the very same time they believe that only one of the persons became flesh? Either God is ONE essence in three persons or he isn't.

Do you understand what I am asking?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Stick to what I have posted.

J.

Since you believe that God is one essence (one being) in three persons, then how do you say that the Word became flesh? If God is one being in three persons, then what happens to one of the persons happens to them all. Otherwise, they aren't one being.

 

[Johann]

Since you believe that God is one essence (one being) in three persons, then how do you say that the Word became flesh? If God is one being in three persons, then what happens to one of the persons happens to them all. Otherwise, they aren't one being.

Already answered.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

It's not automatic that a person goes to hell just because they say they believe in Jesus only such as the united pentecostals denomination.

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

yet many who even claim to believe in Him do DENY HIM .
I see lots of lets find us common ground folks . all headed right to the LIE
which the devil himself h as presented as love and cliams be of GOD .

 

[APAK]

1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

It's not automatic that a person goes to hell just because they say they believe in Jesus only such as the united pentecostals denomination.

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

In fact.... you and I are three that is one (we are a spirit, we possess a soul, and we live in a body)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

After all... the Lord did create man in His Own Image.

Genesis 1:26
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

That's the Father, the Word, and the Spirit saying "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Hey Dan, you do know that the version of I John 5:7 you've posted is found to be a deliberate forgery. Some translations have it without this dastardly act.

I'm sure you can find the original version, and then you might want to post both versions for all to see.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Already answered.

J.

What was the answer?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Silly Child..... Let me show you an angel who can forgive the sins of Israel....

Angel worship much?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

This scripture explains it all...

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Magdala]

No Scripture verse teaches this. There is no God the son. There is no God the Holy Spirit. There is only God the Father and this is repeated in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

Why speculate beyond what Scripture teaches?

We agree that the idea of two or more separate gods isn't scriptural. Do you agree that the Essence of God is love?

 

[Wrangler]

No Scripture verse teaches this. There is no God the son. There is no God the Holy Spirit. There is only God the Father and this is repeated in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

Why speculate contrary to what Scripture teaches?

Do you agree that the Essence of God is love?

Pathological avoidance of answering questions. Why speculate contrary to what Scripture teaches?

 

[Magdala]

Pathological avoidance of answering questions. Why speculate contrary to what Scripture teaches?

We agree that the idea of two or more separate gods isn't scriptural, and thus I don't speculate anything contrary to that. Do you agree that the Essence of God is love?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe that those who want the trinity to be true, will go on posting the same tired scriptures that never come right out and state what they believe is being said. The trinity as a doctrine does not have one clear and unequivocal statement affirming that God exists in three different “persons” because there is no such statement. Every scripture cited depends on interpretation, not on anything stated by God or his Christ.

So let’s leave all of these things here for the readers to discern for themselves and allow the trinity believers to go on believing whatever they wish.....Jesus will tell us all very soon if we have broken the first Commandment and placed three “Gods” (capital “G”) in place of the “only true God”, Yahweh. (Deut 6:4)

Jesus has a God whom he served, not only on earth, but in heaven. (Rev 3:12, Acts 4:27)

To call Jesus “a god” is exactly what is stated in John 1:1......the meaning of “theos” in Greek simply means “a divine mighty one”...and describes even human judges in Israel. If God himself can call these humans “gods”, (John 10:31-36) then the trinitarians are arguing with the Almighty on this subject.....and Matt 7:21-23 will be fulfilled upon them.....breaking God’s Law and failing to truly “know the only true God AND the one he sent”. (John 17:3) This is a salvation issue......

 

[Wrangler]

Again, we agree that the idea of two or more separate gods isn't scriptural, and thus I don't speculate anything contrary to that.

Yes, you do! Scripture only teaches God the Father. Scripture does not teach a trinitarian god, which is contrary to Scripture.

Do you agree that the Essence of God is love?

No. Not sure where this ‘essence’ question comes from. God is essentially the Sovereign Creator of all things. Spirit, outside of time and space., he is essentially all powerful and all knowing. His essential attributes include justice, grace and love. All these essential attributes bound.

If God’s essence was love, there would be universal salvation and no second death.

 

[Magdala]

Yes, you do!

How can I when we agree that the idea of two or more separate gods isn't scriptural?

No.

Essence
The being of God, or what God is. The word "essence" comes from the Latin "esse" meaning "to be"

John said, " for God is love" (1 Jn. 4:8). Do you still disagree that the Essence of God is love?

 

[Wrangler]

How can I when we agree that the idea of two or more separate gods isn't scriptural?

Your response, what you say we agree on, is false as it rewords my point in a sham Strawman.

I find you’re too intellectually dishonest to have a meaningful conversation.

No Scripture verse teaches this. There is no God the son. There is no God the Holy Spirit. There is only God the Father and this is repeated in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

Why speculate contrary to what Scripture teaches?

 

[Magdala]

Your response, what you say we agree on, is false as it rewords my point in a sham Strawman.

How so? Do you not believe that the idea of two or more separate gods isn't scriptural?

 

[face2face]

@face2face, do you have any responses to post #666?
@Wrangler, do you have any response to the part in post #703 about God being one in Essence and Three in Persons?

No thank you, I'll pass!
I'm more interested with engaging with those who are honest and make their beliefs known
F2F