Everyone Goes to Heaven
- Thread starter Harold
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Lam 3:31?
"He causes grief" This VERB (BDB 387, KB 385) is used several times in Lamentations (and only two other places, Job 19:2; Isa. 51:23).
Lam. 1:4 ‒ Jerusalem is grieved because no one comes on feast days (Niphal PARTICIPLE)
Lam. 1:5 ‒ YHWH Himself has caused Judah's grief (Hiphil PERFECT)
Lam. 1:12 ‒ same as #2
Lam. 3:22 ‒ same as #2
Lam. 3:33 ‒ YHWH does not grieve the sons of men from His heart (Piel IMPERFECT with waw)
YHWH, Israel's creator, parent, shepherd, and defender, has now become her adversary (i.e., reversal of Holy War!). This was not only shocking but devastating to the worldview of the descendants of Abraham and YHWH's promises to David (cf. 2 Samuel 7; 1 Chronicles 17).
Thank God for Lam. 3:32b-c! YHWH's judgment is time sensitive. It does not last forever (cf. Ps. 103:8-14; 130:5-8).
3:33 God's judgment is the direct result of the rejection of His love. Judgment is designed to cause fallen mankind to repent and seek God. It is one aspect of parental discipline (cf Heb. 12:5-11). It is for our benefit, not just an outburst of emotional release on God's part (cf. Ezek. 18:23,32; 2 Pet. 3:9). It is purposeful and always in response to destructive rebellion.
This is such an important theological verse. It speaks directly to the merciful character of God (cf. Lam. 3:32). The context from Lam. 3:21-25,31 is positive, so it is difficult to see how Lam. 3:34-38 seems to be negative. Robert Gordis, in his commentary, pp. 181-183, suggests that Lam. 3:34-38 is all parallel, which shows the things, "the Most High" will not do.
to crush prisoners
to pervert justice
to do harm to a good man
He bases #3 on an emendation by Ehrlich. See my following notes on another option for interpreting Lam. 3:37-38.
3:33-36 These verses describe
some of the sinful things that humans do to fellow humans (NJB, JPSOA)
Lam. 3:34 ‒ violence, war, slavery
Lam. 3:35 ‒ deprive justice (cf. Exod. 23:6,8; Deut. 16:19; 24:17; 27:19; Ps. 140:12; Amos 2:7)
Lam. 3:36 ‒ deprive legal process (i.e., bribery, partiality), cf. Jer. 22:3
YHWH knows when His people are hurting and their covenant rights denied or violated (TEV)
All three (a, b, c) are INFINITIVES.
J.
Really BAD news for LGBTQ's
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
I think Harold is LGBTQ.
This is a serious accusation-online-do you have any verifiable proof of your statement?
J.
"I am LGBTQ+ affirming and support them..."
Post 508
Everyone Goes to Heaven
Satan LOVES Universalism! He wants our company in Hell.
www.christianityboard.com
Thanks-so this is being allowed-online-on Christian Forums?"I am LGBTQ+ affirming and support them..."
Post 508
Everyone Goes to Heaven
Satan LOVES Universalism! He wants our company in Hell.
No surprise. Some here believe that everyone will be saved, even Satan! Satan's ministers are BUSY!!! I doubt if most Christians even know this is in the Bible.
2 Corinthians 11
14 Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness,
I was away for a while-and this topic should be banned-Universalism-and the banned topic-The Triune Godhead linked indissolubly with the death and resurrection of our Lord Christ Jesus-should be reconsidered and opened-and remain opened.
But I suspect there will be consequences for me insisting the Triune Godhead be reopened.
Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.
II. I AM.
Used by Christ of Himself, in Joh_8:58. See note on Exo_3:14.
Shalom Achi.
J.
I kind of like opposition to our Bible. It makes us STUDY God's Word. We might pull some 'Christians' out of the fire.
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I'm typing this verse while waiting in the dentist office lobby. I was brushing my teeth today, Aug 11 2023, and my father called me upstairs. He saw a suspicious email so I saw that the domain email address was from a different source then the name who they claimed they were, so it was most likely a scam. My infernalist father said that he wants the scammer to burn in hell. I replied "not forever" I couldn't say much because there was still toothpaste and toothbrush in my mouth.
For accuracy, lets refer to what he mentioned as "hell" as the "Lake of Fire" Matthew 25:41
Why would infernalists want people to burn? Well, it must match God's reason.
Hebrews 12:29 For "our God is an all-consuming fire."
fire. πῦρ (pyr)
Strong's 4442: Fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire. A primary word; 'fire'
That's why Strong's Concordance uses the term "trials". They also use "eternal fire", which more accrutally should be
עוֹלָֽם׃ olam fire, directly connected to punishment of αἰώνιον aionion fire.
Therefore, the only reason infernalist would have to want people to burn in the LoF would be for punishment. For the betterment of those who burn. This leads to the natural conclusion of God needing to have each burning person reach a better state. Without this, there is literally no correction.
What is this better state? It is where one is a believer in Christ.
This furnace of affliction is like brushing your teeth. How long will the toothpaste, the toothbrush, be in your mouth, for how many aions, olams? Until all the dirt, the sins, are removed, only possible by faith alone in Christ. Therefore, as God's fire is all-consumming, all must become believers in Christ.
For accuracy, lets refer to what he mentioned as "hell" as the "Lake of Fire" Matthew 25:41
Why would infernalists want people to burn? Well, it must match God's reason.
Hebrews 12:29 For "our God is an all-consuming fire."
fire. πῦρ (pyr)
Strong's 4442: Fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire. A primary word; 'fire'
That's why Strong's Concordance uses the term "trials". They also use "eternal fire", which more accrutally should be
עוֹלָֽם׃ olam fire, directly connected to punishment of αἰώνιον aionion fire.
Therefore, the only reason infernalist would have to want people to burn in the LoF would be for punishment. For the betterment of those who burn. This leads to the natural conclusion of God needing to have each burning person reach a better state. Without this, there is literally no correction.
What is this better state? It is where one is a believer in Christ.
This furnace of affliction is like brushing your teeth. How long will the toothpaste, the toothbrush, be in your mouth, for how many aions, olams? Until all the dirt, the sins, are removed, only possible by faith alone in Christ. Therefore, as God's fire is all-consumming, all must become believers in Christ.
Why would you want to make false accusations?
You're saying all of our Bibles are wrong and you're right. How are you qualified to do that?
You're about as wrong as you could be.
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Should we believe you or Jesus?
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."
Same Greek word.
After my dentist appointment with my family yesterday, Aug 11 2023, my Dr. boss called and said that I will be talking on Zoom next week to his mentor from decades ago, who he calls the "Smartest Person in Academia". Idk tho, I’ve yet o meet this Dr. He is the dean of a certain university who published over 60 academic papers.
I work as a research assistant for a job related to the Canadian government. Due to the contract I signed, legally, I may be unable to disclose what the project is. What I can say is that this group is planning on coding a program that will scrape keywords from people's social media posts and categorize their account background based on certain information.
I'm just some random guy getting paid close to minimum wage, who worked at a call center before this, so idk how I got here. I have understanding of the message of the cross, so that’s good enough for me.
```1 Corinthians 1:18-19 BSB
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” ```
Those who are the most intelligent of the intelligent συνετῶν (synetōn) Strong's 4908 and the wisest of the wise σοφῶν (sophōn) Strong's 4680 are spiritually useless in their smartness, no matter how smart, when it exclusively pertains to earthly matters, that which perishes 1 John 2:15-17. All shall obtain spiritual wisdom and spiritual understanding Colossians 1:9 in this matter eventually, the truth of Christian Universalism, all shall believe in Christ and be saved.
I work as a research assistant for a job related to the Canadian government. Due to the contract I signed, legally, I may be unable to disclose what the project is. What I can say is that this group is planning on coding a program that will scrape keywords from people's social media posts and categorize their account background based on certain information.
I'm just some random guy getting paid close to minimum wage, who worked at a call center before this, so idk how I got here. I have understanding of the message of the cross, so that’s good enough for me.
```1 Corinthians 1:18-19 BSB
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” ```
Those who are the most intelligent of the intelligent συνετῶν (synetōn) Strong's 4908 and the wisest of the wise σοφῶν (sophōn) Strong's 4680 are spiritually useless in their smartness, no matter how smart, when it exclusively pertains to earthly matters, that which perishes 1 John 2:15-17. All shall obtain spiritual wisdom and spiritual understanding Colossians 1:9 in this matter eventually, the truth of Christian Universalism, all shall believe in Christ and be saved.
My father goes to “The Meeting Place church” in Winnipeg, so like years ago, again I attended service with him today, though I disagree with views some have from their denomination. I distributed my handwritten Christian Universalism Bible tracts inside, and my father asked the Teaching Pastor about this since my mother is against it. He said something like, how dialogue is preferably over monologue, conversation over solitary speech, which I agree with. So, to help encourage discussion, I have included my email on my Bible papers too. Behold, my mother saw this, and once again she became angry with me.
1 Timothy 4:10 ESV For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
My mother says I am not a Christian, that I’m stubborn. I believed in Christ and was saved around May 14, 2017. Christ is my joy, yet, since then, life has only become more brutal. Like the Bible verses I wrote that disappeared suddenly when my mother was nearby, or my mother patting me down and looking under my clothes before I went outside today, Aug 13 2023, trying to stop me from disturbing Bible verses. Taking away my pen, my pencil, blank papers in my pocket, to stop me from writing.
Yet behold, those were decoy papers! For I kept blanks in my socks and found a pencil outside. She says she hopes she can sell the house so she can leave with my sister. Even if I am completely alone, abandoned, I will still spread Christian Universalism. That is why I toil and strive. Even though my mother says that the murderous Iglesia Ni Cristo cult has finger prints of their members and may trace it back to me as they are my family members. Even though my mother says they may put my Bible paper in the pocket of a dead body and try to frame me for the sin of murder. Exodus 20:13. Even though my mother says that violent gangs may use my Bible papers or fingerprints for illegal drug dealings, as for one of my job applications, I passed a police check so they may still have my information.
1 Timothy 4:10 ESV For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
My mother says I am not a Christian, that I’m stubborn. I believed in Christ and was saved around May 14, 2017. Christ is my joy, yet, since then, life has only become more brutal. Like the Bible verses I wrote that disappeared suddenly when my mother was nearby, or my mother patting me down and looking under my clothes before I went outside today, Aug 13 2023, trying to stop me from disturbing Bible verses. Taking away my pen, my pencil, blank papers in my pocket, to stop me from writing.
Yet behold, those were decoy papers! For I kept blanks in my socks and found a pencil outside. She says she hopes she can sell the house so she can leave with my sister. Even if I am completely alone, abandoned, I will still spread Christian Universalism. That is why I toil and strive. Even though my mother says that the murderous Iglesia Ni Cristo cult has finger prints of their members and may trace it back to me as they are my family members. Even though my mother says they may put my Bible paper in the pocket of a dead body and try to frame me for the sin of murder. Exodus 20:13. Even though my mother says that violent gangs may use my Bible papers or fingerprints for illegal drug dealings, as for one of my job applications, I passed a police check so they may still have my information.
Hi Jack.
We see here that
Revelation 20:10 - Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
www.biblehub.com
We see that the word here is aionion
ever.
αἰώνων (aiōnōn)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Plural
Strong's 165: From the same as aei; properly, an age;
As Strong's Concordance tells us, this refers to an age, which is a limited amount of time.
We can see this same connection in the next verse you showed
Matthew 25:41 - The Sheep and the Goats
Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
www.biblehub.com
eternal
αἰώνιον (aiōnion)
Adjective - Accusative Neuter Singular
Strong's 166: From aion; perpetual.
And again in the next
Matthew 25:46 - The Sheep and the Goats
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
www.biblehub.com
eternal
αἰώνιον (aiōnion)
Adjective - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 166: From aion;
So Jack, you are correct in saying that they are the same Greek word. However, the definition tells us that it cannot mean endless but rather that which has an end
Here's a good resource on this topic
Aion and Aionios: Excerpt from "Christ Triumphant"
An excerpt from Thomas Allin's "Christ Triumphant" on the Greek words Aion and Aionios.
www.tentmaker.org
Hi Jack,
This argument can essentially apply to any sort of concept that you personally interpret as belonging to Satan and is not an argument towards Christian Universalism specifically. A Chrisitan Universalist could essentially use that exact same verse in regards to ECT and it would be the same, so it's essentially a non-statement. God bless!
The difference is that the Bible says you're wrong. And you're not a Greek expert so stop trying to rewrite our Bible.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
I think Christ is clear what will happen to the unrepented sinners...
Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 13:40-51
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
Wrong-
The prolific author and Eastern orthodox theologian David Bentley Hart has just released a new book that covers a very old topic: Universalism, or the belief that all creatures will definitely be saved.
In his new book That All Shall Be Saved: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation, Hart argues that eventually all people (which may include fallen angels, though Hart doesn’t explicitly come out and say it) will spend eternity with God in heaven. That’s because an eternal hell is supposedly so unjust that if it were an essential part of Christian doctrine it would be (in Hart’s words) “proof that Christianity should be dismissed as a self-evidently morally obtuse and logically incoherent faith.” (As an aside, my colleague Karlo Broussard has done some great work showing hell is not unjust.)
The possibility that hell is empty is not a twenty-first century novelty. In the third century, the ecclesial writer Origen argued for apokatastasis, or a “restoration” that would unite all things, including unrepentant sinners, to God. This would seem to rule out the possibility that anyone would spend an eternity in hell, though modern commenters are divided over the implications of Origen’s theology on this question. According to Bible scholar Richard Bauckham:
Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of eternal torment in hell. Here and there, outside the theological mainstream, were some who believed that the wicked would be finally annihilated. . . . Even fewer were the advocates of universal salvation . . . though these few included some major theologians of the early church.
The Catholic Church condemned universalism at the regional council of Orange in 543, though a few theologians still held out hope for all creatures to be saved. This uniformity of thought began to change, however, with the rise of denominations like the Universalist Church of America (which exists today under the name Unitarian Universalism).
Most Christian universalists like Hart agree that hell is real and even believe that some or many people will go there. But from their perspective hell is a temporary “purgatory-like” condition and the Bible’s references to it being “eternal” only mean hell is a temporary punishment that the damned face in “the age to come” because the Greek word for eternity (aionion) can also mean “age” (Hart even refers to hell as “the purifying flames of the Age to come”).
As I’ve shown in my engagements with others who dispute the eternal aspect of hell, the endless nature of hell is quite obvious from the biblical texts. Given the strength of the Catholic Church’s case, universalists can’t just claim that the punishments of hell might not be permanent. To be convincing, they need to show positive evidence that all people will eventually be saved. When it comes to providing positive evidence, universalists usually cite biblical passages that, from their perspective, describe God effecting the salvation of every single person.
Hart seems puzzled, though, that these passages were not given more attention by theologians throughout the Church’s history, noting “how odd it is that for at least fifteen centuries such passages have been all but lost behind a veil as thin as the one that can be woven from those three or four deeply ambiguous verses that seem (and only seem) to threaten eternal torments for the wicked.”
But perhaps that’s because these passages don’t teach that everyone will be saved. Instead, they express the hope that anyone can be saved.
In 1 Timothy 2:4, for example, St. Paul says that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But God also desires that we not sin, and yet we still do. God desires the good for all of his creatures, but because he has also given human beings and angels the gift of free will, it follows that God will allow us to enjoy or suffer the consequence of this good gift, even if it means eternal separation from him.
Although Hart admits he doesn’t like “reducing biblical theology to concentrated distillates (prooftexts)” he proceeds to do just that by listing nearly a dozen verses, including their original Greek and Hart’s own rendering of them from his own strange, overly-literal translation of the Bible. Unfortunately, his translation doesn’t offer much in terms of exegesis or understanding of these crucial texts.
For example, in 1 Corinthians 15:22 Paul says, “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive,” but this doesn’t mean that through Christ all people shall be brought to eternal life. What it means is that all who are “in Christ” (a phrase Paul often uses for the saved or elect) shall be brought to eternal life. This logic also explains Romans 5:18, wherein Paul says, “As one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.”
This refers to life for all believers, or those who are in Christ. We know this because in the previous verse Paul says, “If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.” This is talking about the salvation of all believers, not the salvation of all people. Jesus himself says that he will “draw all men to himself” (John 12:32), but that doesn’t mean that people can’t reject him even after being so drawn. In this passage Jesus also foreshadows his own crucifixion, which may mean that all people will have their sins atoned for on the cross but the grace that Christ accrues for them may not be applied to their souls if they choose to reject it.
In other words, Christ draws all men to himself and he died for every single person, offering them the gift of eternal life. But each person still has a choice, and some people will tragically refuse to accept Christ’s mercy and salvation. That is why the Church prays for the soul of anyone who has perished: because God is “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9).
If Hart’s universalism is true, then those who reject the gospel would cease to be “the lost” Jesus came to save (Luke 19:10) and become instead “the delayed,” who just have to wait a little longer for the heavenly rewards they rejected in life.
The evangelist who foolishly thinks universalism will make it easier to preach the gospel will see that without the “bad news” the “good news” isn’t taken seriously. On this view, Christianity becomes a faith that seeks to merely make “heaven on earth,” and by that point it’s nothing more than secular humanism playing dress-up on Sundays.
Contrary to Hart’s assertion, it is not the presence of hell that makes Christianity a “morally obtuse and logically incoherent faith”— it is its absence.
do-all-people-go-to-heaven
yes?
J.
My mother tells me to stop spreading my UR Bible papers, today Aug 14 2023, saying how, because of the way the Ukraine war is going, if Canada becomes more actively involved, I could get drafted into the military. She says I should just wait for my death there.
Yet, we are already in spiritual warfare. Except, the battle is extremely one-sided in favor of the Almighty LORD!
```Luke 10:19 LSB Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. ```
Yes! Literally, God has given us authority over ALL the enemy’s power. As one of my Christian Universalist friends would say, all = all! πᾶσαν (pasan) Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of.
If infernalism is true and if annilhationism is true, then the enemy’s authority is more powerful than God. Because God desires all people to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4. Thus, all shall believe in Christ and all shall be saved.
My mother tells me that if I stop writing Bible verses, then I will be successful and have a good future. I will not stop, as it is by God’s authority that this good news of Universal Reconciliation be spread to all!
Yet, we are already in spiritual warfare. Except, the battle is extremely one-sided in favor of the Almighty LORD!
```Luke 10:19 LSB Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. ```
Yes! Literally, God has given us authority over ALL the enemy’s power. As one of my Christian Universalist friends would say, all = all! πᾶσαν (pasan) Strong's 3956: All, the whole, every kind of.
If infernalism is true and if annilhationism is true, then the enemy’s authority is more powerful than God. Because God desires all people to be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4. Thus, all shall believe in Christ and all shall be saved.
My mother tells me that if I stop writing Bible verses, then I will be successful and have a good future. I will not stop, as it is by God’s authority that this good news of Universal Reconciliation be spread to all!
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