Eternal Torment Or Annihilation? What Happens To The Wicked

[Hobie]

I agree.
And I am certainly not proposing that.
But the problem remains. Countless billions never knew.
What will become of them?

--- PARODY ---

God: Welcome to the afterlife.
Person: Who are you?
God: I created you for my own purposes.
Person: Like what.
God: For destruction.
Person: What does that mean?
God: You will be annihilated.
Person: Why?
God: It was my choice for you.
Person: What did I do to deserve this.
God: You were born a sinner.
Person: Not by my choice.
God: Right. By my choice.
Person: Was that fair?
God: It doesn't matter. You can't stop me.
Person: Who did you say you were again?
You sound more like the Devil than God.

/

Ok, lets say I lived on a island, were no missionary, no Bible, no Gospels has reached. Do you think Christ will not reach out with the power of His Holy Spirit and give me truth unto salvation. Think that one over.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ok, lets say I lived on a island, were no missionary, no Bible, no Gospels has reached. Do you think Christ will not reach out with the power of His Holy Spirit and give me truth unto salvation. Think that one over.

That assumes that the "eternal" fate of every individual is sealed at physical death.
I don't believe that to be the case.

Several other issues apply as well.
- What if you lived in the time before Christ arrived here?
- What about the broad and narrow way? Destruction for the majority?
- Predestination and the Elect of God. You may not have been chosen.

Think that over. Thanks.

[

 

[Taken]

Eternal Torment Or Annihilation? What Happens To The Wicked?​

Unsaved Humans…
Life (blood) of their body shall die.
Life (Gods Breath) of their soul shall return to God.
Their natural TRUTH (spirit) / Shall not receive Gods Seed and rebirth, and shall die with their body.
Dead lifeless body’s (no blood)
Dead lifeless soul’s (no breath of Life)
Dead lifeless spirit ( no rebirth)…

Shall be thrown into the Lake of Fire, burn up, be Forgotten

That which Shall LIVE Forever IN the Torments of Hell without the power or ability to ESCAPE IS “Spirits” which can not Die…AND have Rejected their Creator and Maker.
* That IS Celestial beings commonly Called “Fallen Angels”… or Demons.

Is there A Different Punishment…for Humans Whose OWN Rejection of God….went Beyond their personal Rejection….?
Meaning their personal campaign to encourage, convince others to ALSO reject God?

I speculate that possibility. That they might Keep their soul in an ALIVE condition…
Not sent eternally to the Lake of Fire …
Rather are sent to utter outer atmosphere Darkness to exist forever separated from God, the Earth and Beauty and Comfort and Peace and Joy.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[St. SteVen]

That which Shall LIVE Forever IN the Torments of Hell without the power or ability to ESCAPE IS “Spirits” which can not Die…AND have Rejected their Creator and Maker.

Not everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject.
That's where your claims fall apart. IMHO

[

 

[Taken]

Not everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject.
That's where your claims fall apart. IMHO

[

Okay, you and I differ on that point.

I trust to believe God is omnipotent.
Which that…
God ALREADY KNOWS Before Any Human IS naturally born, “IF” an individual Heard of Him, they would or would not Believe…and God prepares Accordingly..

You seem to project “God” is “waiting to discover” “Which” individuals “will or would”choose Him.

Jer 1:
[5a] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Not everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject.
That's where your claims fall apart. IMHO

Okay, you and I differ on that point.

So, you claim that everyone throughout history had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ?

I trust to believe God is omnipotent.
Which that…
God ALREADY KNOWS Before Any Human IS naturally born, “IF” an individual Heard of Him, they would or would not Believe…and God prepares Accordingly..

Since God is all-powerful, he doesn't have to leave it up to flawed humans to save themselves.
And since he is all-knowing, he can plan accordingly. Assuming his plans and intentions for humankind are good.

You seem to project “God” is “waiting to discover” “Which” individuals “will or would”choose Him.

Jer 1:
[5a] Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;

No, not at all.
But I do object to the standard claims about the Elect and predestination.
If God foreknew some to be saved, then he also foreknow the majority would not.
And with that knowledge he stood by and did nothing.
Like watching a child walk into the highway and be killed.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[

 

[Taken]

St. SteVen said:
Not everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject.
That's where your claims fall apart. IMHO

So, you claim that everyone throughout history had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ?

No.
I claim God IS ALL Knowing.
Before you were formed, before you were delivered from your mothers womb…God KNEW every belief and choice would be YOUR Will and your choice.

Since God is all-powerful, he doesn't have to leave it up to flawed humans to save themselves.

Men are NOT their own Saviors.

And since he is all-knowing, he can plan accordingly. Assuming his plans and intentions for humankind are good.

God has, did, plan and has made the Knowledge of His Plan revealed.

No, not at all.
But I do object to the standard claims about the Elect and predestination.
If God foreknew some to be saved, then he also foreknow the majority would not.
And with that knowledge he stood by and did nothing.

False…(that God did nothing).
God Revealed His Plan.
God Revealed Offerings, Options, Choices, Warnings, Consequences.

Like watching a child walk into the highway and be killed.

No. That scenario IS a “parent” not teaching a child, warning a child, and being the parent being ignorant of understanding when a “child” is capable of being unleashed into society…and keeping a child restrained and physically safeguarded …until they are “prepared” to be unleashed into society and subject to the consequences of yheir OWN choices.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Not news… He forgives the repentant.

Not everyone is sorry for not believing.

If you enjoy being around people who do not believe, nor want to believe, nor are sorry that they do not believe…enjoy your time on this earth as it is now… because this earth has a plethora of individuals who do not believe, have no interest to believe and have no regret that they do not believe and can not, will not be forced to believe, by anyone, including God Himself.

The ARMOR of God is an invisible Spiritual Shield, that By, Through, Of Gods Power…to protect, keep, a mans restored soul SAV-ED and a mans spirit QUICKEN-ED…
Body’s ? They all SHALL Die, God requires it.

When a body Shall Die…is the mystery to men.

And inasmuch as men like to DECIDE which body’s should not Die…
Fact is God has a purpose for every human man…and every soul…and sometimes a mans soul has a greater purpose in heaven, in hell, than on Earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[St. SteVen]

... sometimes a mans soul has a greater purpose in heaven, in hell, than on Earth.

A greater purpose in hell? Like what?

[

 

[Taken]

A greater purpose in hell? Like what?

Lessons they rejected when on earth…
Like …Regret.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
A greater purpose in hell? Like what?

Lessons they rejected when on earth…
Like …Regret.

Pointless unending "lessons"? With no hope of restoration?
That would make God the most sadistic tyrant imaginable.
Worse than any human in history.
Are you sure you want to blame God for that?

[

 

[Taken]

St. SteVen said:
A greater purpose in hell? Like what?

Pointless unending "lessons"? With no hope of restoration?
That would make God the most sadistic tyrant imaginable.

Your comment not mine.

Worse than any human in history.
Are you sure you want to blame God for that?

No need to ask me to verify something I never said.

We have access to an account of dialogue between the saved souls in hell that heeded Gods Warning and unsaved souls in hell that rejected God Warning and ?

Point is…no one can force another to heed a warning…make another believe…but the account reveals the unsaved soul did not like his consequence…as he revealed and…accomplished his purpose.

 

[St. SteVen]

... sometimes a mans soul has a greater purpose in heaven, in hell, than on Earth.

St. SteVen said:
A greater purpose in hell? Like what?

Lessons they rejected when on earth…
Like …Regret.

St. SteVen said:
Pointless unending "lessons"? With no hope of restoration?
That would make God the most sadistic tyrant imaginable.

Your comment not mine.

Did I miss something? How could you put a positive spin on hell?

No need to ask me to verify something I never said.

I'm trying to get you to explain what you DID say.
What is the "greater purpose" of a soul in hell?

I'm amazed at how many Christians want to whitewash the hell doctrine as if it is no big deal.

[

 

[Taken]

St. SteVen said:
A greater purpose in hell? Like what?

St. SteVen said:
Pointless unending "lessons"? With no hope of restoration?
That would make God the most sadistic tyrant imaginable.

Did I miss something? How could you put a positive spin on hell?

I'm trying to get you to explain what you DID say.
What is the "greater purpose" of a soul in hell?

I'm amazed at how many Christians want to whitewash the hell doctrine as if it is no big deal.

I don’t know anyone who whitewashes hell as if it is no big deal.

The Scriptural account of an unsaved soul in hell existing in torments sounds pretty horrific to me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[St. SteVen]

I don’t know anyone who whitewashes hell as if it is no big deal.

Most are happy to blame the victims and gloat about their assumed insulation.
Even though Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

The Scriptural account of an unsaved soul in hell existing in torments sounds pretty horrific to me.

It actually pales compared to the hellfire and brimstone stories we are all familiar with.
The Rich Man (assuming that is what you are referring to) is having an intelligent conversation with Abraham.
This would not be possible for someone in the situation described to us as the Lake of Fire.

The other things that are are not confirmed is the purpose and duration of such "torment".

[

 

[Taken]

Most are happy to blame the victims

I rather think most do not blame victims.

and gloat about their assumed insulation.

I rather think (if your comment of “assumed insulation” is a reference to an individuals “SALVATION”… )that such individuals feel Blessed and Thankful for their Gift.

Even though Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49 NIV

Mark 9:
[49] For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

I think you missed the Big Picture of Jesus’ Teaching….
Meaning…Jesus came to OFFER an Option to ALL of manKIND;
* The Offering…To Be With Him…
* The individual Choosing To Receive His Offering AND the individual Rejecting His Offering…
*[/B]By DEFAULT ESTABLISH A DIVISION…
Us With Him…Them WithOUT Him [/B]

* Once a divide is Established…what APPLIES IN Context….to ALL, EVERYONE
With Him…
OR
APPLIES IN Context…to ALL, EVERYONE
WithOUT Him.

SALT - Purifies
SALT - Preserves

Purification and Preserving IS For EVERYONE divided and ACCOUNTED….”WITH Him.”

BECAUSE…
* They freely, willingly ACCEPTED His Offering…To BE WITH Him…
* They freely and willingly ACCEPTED His Order and Way (terms) to Receive His Offering.
* They freely, willingly OFFERED their True Word of Confession of Belief…AND Confirmed their Confessed Testimony with their Signature…like one does for an oath to marriage or for a loan …uh no, Rather
BY Offering the Death of their Body unto Him.

(Not all, Not everyone elects, chooses to DO that.)

Do some Who Are salted “gloat” ?
Maybe so…

I rather think, individuals Enjoy the company of Like minded People…
Saved with saved
Car fans with car fans
Sports fans with sports fans
Thugs with thugs
Whatever…

Jesus said Love your enemies…
That is a Tough Order to accomplish…
(However, personally, I find that possible Because I have power of Gods Spirit, not ONLY WITH me, but Also IN me…so DO accredit the ability to Love my Enemy, To Gods Power WithIn me.)

Loving my enemy does not translate to mean, collude, tolerate, adopt their ways…
Rather treat civilly, lend a hand, glorify God before them.

 

[Taken]

It actually pales compared to the hellfire and brimstone stories we are all familiar with.
The Rich Man (assuming that is what you are referring to) is having an intelligent conversation with Abraham.
This would not be possible for someone in the situation described to us as the Lake of Fire.

There is a valley just outside of Jerusalem called the “Hinnom”. It was Anciently a waste dump site. Historically it was also the sight of men murdering other people I sacrifice rituals, burning them alive. The screams, the putrid smell of human flesh could be heard and smelled in the city. You may have heard the term “Gehenna”. It a reference to the goings on in the human sacrifice rituals, in Hinnom Valley, as an imaginable parallel to what HELL might be like.
(The smell in Hell is Sulfur…and if you have ever smelled sulfur OR burning flesh it is putrid and gaging).

The other things that are are not confirmed is the purpose and duration of such "torment".

[

The “torments” IN hell (for an individuals soul is subjective)… meaning …
I believe manKind has existed…roughly 6 thousand years…and deaths of manKind have occurred over that time span…and some souls have experienced hell for that duration.
I believe…Jesus CHRIST will reign on Earth 1,000 years…with saved souls (who bodily died “IN” CHRIST ) in glorified bodies in His Kingdom (ie Abraham’s Promised Land/area king David’s Throne / Jerusalem) AND
Believing Mortals outside Jesus’ Kingdom…towns, growing to cities, to nations, with kings, governments etc.for 1,000 years…
(Satan’s return to earth, worlds nations again tricked, come against Jesus’ Kingdom..ALL mortals Killed…by Fire. ( not salted. not purified, not preserved ) Dead by their body being Killed…not by the individual willingly “giving” their body to death.
Their souls sent to Hell…(END of Mortal manKind)…shortly thereafter Judgement.

So… effectively, some souls duration in hell is long, short for others.

Judgement …
First resurrection… Those who died believing IN God…AND Those who died believing IN Jesus (but made no confession He was the Christ) thus, they IN Jesus, not IN Christ…
They all soul saved and raised IN new body.

Second resurrection…Those who rejected God, Rejected Jesus…raised in their natural (lifeless, no Blood/ life body) and Living Soul.

“All”…SAVED…Unsaved bow worship Lord Jesus.
Life (Gods Breath returns to God)…
Dead (bloodless) body;
Dead (lifeless) soul;
Thrown into the Lake of FIRE burned up ( Not purified with salt, not preserved with Salt or with Fire….destroyed By Fire and Forgotten.
Human Mortals ENDS.
Human Torments / Suffering ENDS.


Regarding Demon Angels…
They ARE Spirits NOT Mortals.
Mortals ARE subject to bodily Death.
Spirits ARE Not Subject to Death
They can Not Die.
They thrown into the Lake of Fire. With no power to escape.
They burn forever…but not Forgotten…
The Smoke from their burning rises up to the Earths surface for the saved and quickened (men ) and holy angels to see and be reminded of what a Grand Blessing THEY have to praise God For.)

When I said all (beings) have a purpose, they do. Not about “ gloating”…rather about Thankfulness unto God.

Glory to God
Taken

 

[Lambano]

The Rich Man (assuming that is what you are referring to) is having an intelligent conversation with Abraham.
This would not be possible for someone in the situation described to us as the Lake of Fire.

One quick tidbit: In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus uses the Greek word "Hades" (Luke 16:23), not "Gehenna". Hades is LXX translation of the Hebrew "Sheol", the realm of the dead. Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom where garbage was burned and where the Israelites apparently practiced child-sacrifice through burning (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Jeremiah 7:31, Jeremiah 32:35). This place was Jesus's usual allegorical imagery for the final destination of the wicked; see Matthew 23:33, Matthew 10:28/Luke 12:5 and elsewhere, mostly in Matthew.

Is the use of "Hades" rather than "Gehenna" significant? In Revelation 20:13-14, Hades gives up the dead therein and itself "dies" in the Lake of Fire, along with those whose deeds were judged not worthy of life.

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So, assuming consistent use of place-names, across different biblical authors (which is not a given), the place where the "Rich Man" was in torments is destroyed in the end. This imagery makes no sense unless "second death" means the final end to existence.

 

[St. SteVen]

One quick tidbit: In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus uses the Greek word "Hades" (Luke 16:23), not "Gehenna". Hades is LXX translation of the Hebrew "Sheol", the realm of the dead. Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom where garbage was burned and where the Israelites apparently practiced child-sacrifice through burning (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Jeremiah 7:31, Jeremiah 32:35). This place was Jesus's usual graphic metaphor for the final destination of the wicked; see Matthew 23:33, Matthew 10:28/Luke 12:5 and elsewhere, mostly in Matthew.

Good point, thanks.

Is the use of "Hades" rather than "Gehenna" significant? In Revelation 20:13-14, Hades gives up the dead therein and itself "dies" in the Lake of Fire, along with those whose deeds were judged not worthy of life.

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Fact check: "those whose deeds were judged not worthy of life"?
The scripture provided says: "they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds."
We are not provided with a verdict, whether mercy/restoration, or punishment.

So, assuming consistent use of place-names across different biblical authors the place where the "Rich Man" was in torments is destroyed in the end. This imagery makes no sense unless "second death" means the final end to existence.

That assumes annihilation of the wicked. Which is preferable to ECT, of course.
But Ultimate Redemption is another option.

[

 

[Lambano]

Fact check: "those whose deeds were judged not worthy of life"?
The scripture provided says: "they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds."
We are not provided with a verdict, whether mercy/restoration, or punishment.

And the judgement was that their deeds that are judged worthy of the second death:

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. ... And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:12,15)

And the author gives a brief list of deeds (probably not exhaustive) that are judged worthy of second death:

“But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

So, I am compelled to stand by my original interpretation.

 

[Lambano]

"Spirit, tell me! Are these the shadows of things that must be, or are they the shadows of things that MIGHT be?" - Chuck Dickens