Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The one doesn't necessarily preclude the other.
Are you exempt from the laws of... Ohio... because you are under grace?
Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)
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Are you exempt from the laws of... Ohio... because you are under grace?
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
That's one way of saying it. I see it as a claim to authority. Basically, "I have the same standing as David."
It's another reference to Isaiah...
Isaiah 56:1-2 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
This chapter of Isaiah ends with God summoning foreigners and unclean animals to the temple (!) because the temple's "watchmen" are lazy and greedy.
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer... His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Agree.
Also see verse six below.
Matthew 12:1-8 NIV
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath.
His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them.
2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him,
“Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—
which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.
5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty
in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent?
6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here.
7 If you had known what these words mean,
‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent.
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Under grace, I could not be charged under any law in Ohio.
thats what being under grace means.
it does not mean that they are no longer sins, it means you can not be charged
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Are you not under grace? I suspect Ohio may still charge you if you commit a crime...
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I think there is a clear difference between law and THE law in the Bible.
In fact, I see clear differences between "the law", the Law, God's law, and Christ's law.
Four different things. None having to do with the laws of human government.
Although there is overlap in all these terms. But it helps to separate them out for discussion.
The Apostle Paul informed us that we are not "under the law".
(the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses)
He also told us we are responsible to earthly kings that
"do not bear the sword for no reason". - Romans 13:4
So clearly not promoting "lawlessness" on a grand scale.
I see a progression in history of when these laws came into play.
God's law > "the law" > the Law > Christ's law
- God's law: The law of human conscience
- "the law": the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses
- the Law: The books of the law that contain "the law".
- Christ's law: The law/commands that Christ gave us, or highlighted.
Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things
- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...
www.christianityboard.com
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It depends somewhat on who and where you are. The answer is different if one is Jewish in the 1st century than it is for an American hillbilly in the 21st century. :)
Us? That was written to the 1st church at Rome. Although "we" are also not under the law... unless you're an Orthodox Jew.
Are you quite sure "the law" was given only to the Israelites? It would seem that some people had it earlier than that. Abel, Noah, and others offered animal sacrifices before Moses. Melchizedek took a tithe from Abraham. Jethro seems to have trained Moses in priestcraft and given him a fair portion of what would become The Law. And half the world was already keeping a Sabbath.I see a progression in history of when these laws came into play.
God's law > "the law" > the Law > Christ's law
- God's law: The law of human conscience
- "the law": the law God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses
- the Law: The books of the law that contain "the law".
- Christ's law: The law/commands that Christ gave us, or highlighted.
Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things
- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...
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Good question.
God's law (of human conscience) was from the beginning.
Ironically, I think God's law (of human conscience) came with the Fall.
Eating from The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Romans 5:13 NIV
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given,
but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
Deuteronomy 5:1-3 NIV
Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today.
Learn them and be sure to follow them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant,
but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.
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How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Here's another scripture that drove my observations about
the difference between "the law", God's law and Christ's law.
1 Corinthians 9:20-22 NIV
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became
like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law
but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Archaeology... well, reading about it anyway.
The Amorites (you remember those guys from the Bible) were the first to create a calendar that utilized 7-day weeks. Archaeological evidence shows that they were using it in the 3rd millennium BC... that's over a thousand years before Moses lived. They spread it to Babylon and the rest of Accad (northern Mesopotamia). A wikipedia article to start the rabbit-hole:
Pentecontad calendar - Wikipedia
The Code of Hammurabi (a king of Babylon ca. 1800BC) is considered the most notable example of a pre-Moses code of law. It turns out that it contains laws similar to most of the 10 commandments. An article comparing the two here:
The Code of Hammurabi V. The 10 Commandments
The code of Hammurabi was written somewhere between 1792-1750 BC. We cannot be sure exactly when Hammurabi penned his law code. In comparison, Moses wrote the ten commandments somewhere around the…
theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com
The parenthetical in verse 20 (blue) is not in my Bible?
Are you saying that they observed a day of rest?Archaeology... well, reading about it anyway.
The Amorites (you remember those guys from the Bible) were the first to create a calendar that utilized 7-day weeks. Archaeological evidence shows that they were using it in the 3rd millennium BC... that's over a thousand years before Moses lived. They spread it to Babylon and the rest of Accad (northern Mesopotamia). A wikipedia article to start the rabbit-hole:
The Code of Hammurabi (a king of Babylon ca. 1800BC) is considered the most notable example of a pre-Moses code of law. It turns out that it contains laws similar to most of the 10 commandments. An article comparing the two here:Pentecontad calendar - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The Code of Hammurabi V. The 10 Commandments
The code of Hammurabi was written somewhere between 1792-1750 BC. We cannot be sure exactly when Hammurabi penned his law code. In comparison, Moses wrote the ten commandments somewhere around the…
I think Sabbath is more involved than that. Was there a preparation day?
Deuteronomy 5:15 NIV
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God
brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm.
Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
- Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths.
This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come,
so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
- Ezekiel 20:12
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us,
so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.
- Ezekiel 20:20
Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us.
Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”
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This is curious. Note the capitalization of the word "Law" in the Greek interlinear in these two verses.
The capitalization of "Law" indicates a reference to the BOOKS of the Law, not the laws themselves. IMHO
So the reading would be as follows.
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the books of the Law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the books of the Law I became like one
not having the books of the Law
though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the books of the Law.
Interesting.
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The capitalization of "Law" indicates a reference to the BOOKS of the Law, not the laws themselves. IMHO
So the reading would be as follows.
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the books of the Law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the books of the Law I became like one
not having the books of the Law
though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the books of the Law.
Interesting.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It's very similar to Biblical Sabbath. Yes, there's a rest day, and the idea of "holiness" and prohibitions on doing certain things. More wikipedia...
Counting from the new moon, the Babylonians celebrated the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th as "holy-days", also called "evil days" (meaning "unsuitable" for prohibited activities). On these days officials were prohibited from various activities and common men were forbidden to "make a wish", and at least the 28th was known as a "rest-day".
Frankly, I think most historians would conclude that the Hebrew week and Sabbath were borrowed from the Amorites. We know from the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Jewish Essenes in the 1st century were STILL using a form of their calendar.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I found a footnote in my Bible that says that bit isn't in all manuscripts. So apparently it's only in some Bibles. :shrug:
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Capitalization wasn't invented til the 3rd century AD... meaning none of the original books of the Bible had it.
Yes.
But those who created this Greek interlinear version noticed a reference to the BOOKS of the law
in the places where they use capitalization in the direct English, to indicate such.
Not sure why the NIV didn't follow that pattern. ???
HELPS Word-studies
3551 nómos – law. 3551 (nómos) is used of: a) the Law (Scripture),
with emphasis on the first five books of Scripture; or
b) any system of religious thinking (theology),
especially when nomos occurs without the Greek definite article.
3551 /nómos ("law") then can refer to "the Law," or "law"
as a general principle (or both simultaneously).
The particular sense(s) of 3551 (nómos) is determined by the context.
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I'm guessing it wasn't a "holy day" honoring YHWH.
But it is curious that the Israelites may have adopted the practice from them.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Not by that name, but...
The Amorites worshiped El and Elohim, which you'll recognized as words for God in the Bible.
The Babylonians had a pantheon of gods, but one of them (Ea) has a strong affinity with the God of the Bible as well.
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