Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)

[Wrangler]

the ways I failed being “godly”. I know it’s not literal.

Of course our failing to be Godly is literal. Not just your failure sister, but all of us literally fail. We all literally sin. If none of these failings are literally true, there was no reason for Jesus to literally die horribly on a cross and literally be resurrected.

Define that woman however you want, but that woman is not earthly

That was a good post except for this. Words are already defined. There is no need to define them. And the woman in question is most certainly an earthly woman, who is suspected of infidelity.

her womb is the “good ground” where the seed(Christ) is planted

Wrong. The Spirit of God is planted in a person not a literal (not the figurative heart) organ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Of course our failing to be Godly is literal. Not just your failure sister, but all of us literally fail. If none of these failings are literally true, there was no reason for Jesus to literally die horribly on a cross and literally be resurrected.

I never said our failing is not literal. You took it that way. What I said is not literal is the saving of God out of our failure. It’s supernatural. It is Spirit. It is Life. I could be wrong but do you not also call it supernatural?

That was a good post except for this. Words are already defined. There is no need to define them. And the woman in question is most certainly an earthly woman, who is suspected of infidelity.

Ok. Is Jerusalem above earthly? Yes or no?

Wrong. The Spirit of God is planted in a person not a literal (not the figurative heart) organ.

Oh come on you had to twist that. No it’s not a literal heart organ…or figurative …it’s a new heart and new Spirit given of God. Not the spirit the world gives unto you, but the Spirit of power, of love, and a sound mind. Be you transformed by the renewing of the mind. Transformed unto what? Those of the world marry and are given in marriage. Those of the resurrection neither marry or are given in marriage. “The time is short, let those who have wives be as though they have none.” What? Be not conformed unto the world but be you transformed by the renewal of the mind(unto a new creature in Christ).

Let this Mind be in you that was in Christ. Is the Mind of Christ after the flesh or after the Spirit? your determined to make is literal because it will strip theses ideas of inequality of gender. I mean it will cast it down to the ground. Even “if any be in Christ he (women too) is a new creature where there is no more Jew nor Greek, no more circumcised and uncircumcised, no more bond not free, no more male and female…I don’t know about you but that to me speaks of “equality” in the body of Christ. It’s exactly as He said “Am I not equal? Are you not unequal?”

 

[Wrangler]

I never said our failing is not literal. You took it that way. What I said is not literal is the saving of God out of our failure. It’s supernatural. It is Spirit. It is Life. I could be wrong but do you not also call it supernatural?

False dichotomy. It is simultaneously literal, Spiritual and supernatural. No different than how you are simultaneously a literal daughter, a literal mother and a literal wife or I simultaneously a a literal son, a literal brother, and a literal father and a literal husband.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

False dichotomy. It is simultaneously literal, Spiritual and supernatural. No different than how you are simultaneously a literal daughter, a literal mother and a literal wife or I simultaneously a a literal son, a literal brother, and a literal father and a literal husband.

I’m not going to talk to you anymore. It stresses me and it’s not good. It’s not healthy. It obvious we disagree. It’s not worth the stress to keep going.

 

[Wrangler]

Ok. Is Jerusalem above earthly? Yes or no?

Another false dichotomy. Just because something is literal does not mean it is not spiritual. Of course there is a literal and earthly Jerusalem, yes.

You know that most words have different senses. In one sense, Jerusalem is a city in Israel. (Call this city a literal or earthly city if it makes you feel good. It doesn't change the fact.) And there is another sense of this word. What the word means. It literally means "new peace." (If it makes you feel good, you can say the means by which this literal state of existence was achieved is figurative* or supernatural or spiritual.) However, recognize that this sense of the word does not necessarily have to be achieved through such supernatural or spiritual means.

Because I achieved a goal at long last, I am consequently in Jerusalem. Literally. But what sense of the word am I referring to? Did I achieve this goal on my own or via spiritual or supernatural assistance? The text provided simply does not say. And there is no reason to categorize the text in ways beyond the text supports. No reason at all.



* An organic chemistry teacher was fond of saying "good enough for government work." By this figurative expression, he meant the solution is not perfect but given the context, it meets a reasonable criteria of acceptability.

 

[Wrangler]

Oh come on you had to twist that.

I untwisted your false claim. The Spirit of God is literally given to a person not a womb, as you claim.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

When did the fig tree wither?
Immediately when Jesus cursed it, or over night?

• Matthew 21:19
  Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
  
  
• Matthew 21:20
  When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
  
  
• Mark 11:20
  In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
  
  
• Mark 11:21
  Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

[

The apparent contradiction appears because of the English we use.

In the Greek it speaks a different tale. In Matthew they saw the tree start to wither and die.

Teh next day in the Mark account the tree had completely withered and died (from the roots) the different form of the same verb tells the tale.

In Matthew it is Aorist Passive indicative while in Mark it is the perfect passive indicative.

 

[Wrangler]

The apparent contradiction appears because of the English we use.

In the Greek it speaks a different tale. In Matthew they saw the tree start to wither and die.

Teh next day in the Mark account the tree had completely withered and died (from the roots) the different form of the same verb tells the tale.

In Matthew it is Aorist Passive indicative while in Mark it is the perfect passive indicative.

This is similar to the apparent contradiction of God saying the day Adam and Even eat the forbidden fruit they will die. Sure enough, 900+ years later, they died.

In the original language, the word means begin to die.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This is an oversimplification that is not helpful to the uninitiated who suddenly encounter difficulty reconciling Scripture.

.

No sir, it is Biblical truth instead of social gospel. The Gospel speaks to the heart, not the mind.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This is similar to the apparent contradiction of God saying the day Adam and Even eat the forbidden fruit they will die. Sure enough, 900+ years later, they died.

In the original language, the word means begin to die.

Nope, you are wrong, they died Spiritually on that day causing their eventual physical death.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus is depicted as "The Word Of God" and as "The Word Made Flesh" in the Bible. If this is the extent of someone's understanding, why should they be expected to come up to a higher standard that is presented as what "some of us enjoy?" Forgive me, but this sounds a bit elitist, Steve.

To understand my response, you have to first understand the post I was replying to.

My opinion.

The Living word of God is infallible 100%.

4:12 NIV. For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart

The Bible written by men...fallible..even if it says they were under the influence of the Spirit.

They are human..humans get it wrong..my opinion.

RJ is comparing the direct "Living word of God" to the Bible we hold in our hands.
The "Living word of God" here being defined as God speaking directly to us.
Not a reading from the Bible. (which has gone through many layers of human touch to reach us)

The intent is not to create an elitist attitude, but to differentiate between the claimed "Word of God"
in reference to the Bible. (a term I very much dislike) and the "Living word of God" spoken directly to our Spirit.
(direct download) A message we always compare with the written word for confirmation.

With that backdrop, my words may make more sense. RJ and I have a mutual understanding in this area.
And hopefully you can understand that the outpouring at Pentecost was meant for all believers, not some elite group.

St. SteVen said:
Agree.
That is an important distinction you have made here.
There are a lot of layers (of human activity) between us and the "Living word of God".

Many today put more trust in the layer cake of a Bible they hold in their hands than the direct revelation some of us enjoy.

Acts 2:17-18 NIV
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


[ cc: @Ritajanice

 

[St. SteVen]

Why should people be urged (somewhat cynically, if I'm being honest) to put more trust in something a certain segment of people have experienced than in what they, themselves have experienced? This is confusing.

Jesus is depicted as "The Word Of God" and as "The Word Made Flesh" in the Bible. If this is the extent of someone's understanding, why should they be expected to come up to a higher standard that is presented as what "some of us enjoy?" Forgive me, but this sounds a bit elitist, Steve.

Should the Spirit of prophesy be limited to a single individual in a denomination, or is it for everyone?

Acts 2:17-18 NIV
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

1 Corinthians 12:28 NIV
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers,
then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The apparent contradiction appears because of the English we use.

In the Greek it speaks a different tale. In Matthew they saw the tree start to wither and die.

Teh next day in the Mark account the tree had completely withered and died (from the roots) the different form of the same verb tells the tale.

In Matthew it is Aorist Passive indicative while in Mark it is the perfect passive indicative.

You might have a case if all four verses were from the same gospel.
Are you of the mind that there are zero contradictions in the Bible?

Mark 11:12-14 NIV
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry.
13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit.
When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.
14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.”
And his disciples heard him say it.

Mark 11:20-21 NIV
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots.
21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

--- COMPARE---

Matthew 21:18-22 NIV
Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry.
19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves.
Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt,
not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain,
‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.
22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

[

 

[Wrangler]

Nope, you are wrong, they died Spiritually on that day causing their eventual physical death.

So, I've been told. Trouble is, that is NOT what the text says. Inserting the word "spiritually" is not right.

 

[St. SteVen]

So, I've been told. Trouble is, that is NOT what the text says. Inserting the word "spiritually" is not right.

Unfortunately we have to deal with what that means unless we can explain it.
Were A&E immortal beings that became mortal when they ate thereof?
What do we do with this?

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

[ cc: @th1b.taylor

 

[Wrangler]

I’m not going to talk to you anymore. It stresses me and it’s not good. It’s not healthy. It obvious we disagree. It’s not worth the stress to keep going.

Understood. Recognizing literal consequences, literal accountability certainly involves stress.

So, I've been told. Trouble is, that is NOT what the text says. Inserting the word "spiritually" is not right.

It is not right to add words to Scripture just to torture the words to fit our doctrine. Rather, we should adjust our doctrine to fit the words.

Unfortunately we have to deal with what that means unless we can explain it.
Were A&E immortal beings that became mortal when they ate thereof?
What do we do with this?

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

[ cc: @th1b.taylor

Great question! @Aunty Jane is big on denying the claim A&E were ever immortal. (Perhaps a slight difference from not dying once one comes into existence.) Perhaps A&E were in a state of Grace, not dying, where God's intention is that we would live forever.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Unfortunately we have to deal with what that means unless we can explain it.
Were A&E immortal beings that became mortal when they ate thereof?
What do we do with this?

Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Great question! @Aunty Jane is big on denying the claim A&E were ever immortal. (Perhaps a slight difference from not dying once one comes into existence.) Perhaps A&E were in a state of Grace, not dying, where God's intention is that we would live forever.

It's a BIG question. Probably several questions. And outside the scope of this topic.

I'll look to see if I already have a topic for this in my list. If not, it might be worth launching one.

You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too many topics. - LOL

[

 

[Marvelloustime]

No contradiction at all . It was the heart behind the sacrifice that GOD despised .
Many were already sacrificing to other gods and would then come to HIS own house
and still offer up the sacrifices to GOD . IT was ritual only baby . THEY had zero love for GOD .
the sacifice dont mean squat if the heart is not for GOD .
MANY are and were LIP only . just did the routine but had no heart for GOD .
kinda like confession time for some . OH they party all week
and on a sunday go to a preacher as a cover . But their heart is not WITH or FOR GOD .
its empty and dead faith . GOD dont like that .

@amigo de christo

 

[St. SteVen]

Wrangler said:
Great question! @Aunty Jane is big on denying the claim A&E were ever immortal. (Perhaps a slight difference from not dying once one comes into existence.) Perhaps A&E were in a state of Grace, not dying, where God's intention is that we would live forever.

It's a BIG question. Probably several questions. And outside the scope of this topic.

I'll look to see if I already have a topic for this in my list. If not, it might be worth launching one.

You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too many topics. - LOL

New topic:

What sort of death did A&E die in the day they ate thereof?

I posit that they died spiritually that day. They were not immortal/eternal beings that became mortal in that day. On the other hand, we are immortal beings. An afterlife awaits us all. Many aspects to explore on this. Genesis 3:22 NIV And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of...

www.christianityboard.com

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[Wick Stick]

David wrote the truth, concerning his sin, Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. God wanted david to repent. God knew what would realy take his sin away, Through his son who would be born much later.

again, Context is your enemy, because context removes the contradiction

Ummm... did you read the chapter? Psalm 40? It's not about David repenting of sin.

Causing doubt is not ok no matter where you are.

I do not appreciate people causing doubt in the word of God because they do not understand it.

This subforum is marked out as a place where people can discuss unorthodox theology. If they ignore the warning sign on the door, they don't get to complain about what's in the room.