Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)

[St. SteVen]

Words like "infallible" and "contradiction" have never been helpful to me in understanding passages like Matthew 4:4 and 2 Timothy 3:16.

Those two scriptures might be worth exploring. If you are game.

What worries me most is that what you're facilitating here may prove to bear fruit that you may yet find very regrettable.

Considering my forum history, it's hard to imagine anything worse than what has already been visited upon this brave soul.
But if I am overlooking something...

My hopes are that dashing false hopes in the Bible, the church and religion will lead people to God, not away.
This is a Christian forum. I'm not doing this on a public street corner.

A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
till he has brought justice through to victory.
- Matthew 12:20 NIV

In any case, I remain your devoted brother in Christ.

The feeling is mutual.

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[Ritajanice]

My opinion.

The Living word of God is infallible 100%.

4:12 NIV. For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart

The Bible written by men...fallible..even if it says they were under the influence of the Spirit.

They are human..humans get it wrong..my opinion.

 

[St. SteVen]

My opinion.

The Living word of God is infallible 100%.

4:12 NIV. For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart

The Bible written by men...fallible..even if it says they were under the influence of the Spirit.

They are human..humans get it wrong..my opinion.

Agree.
That is an important distinction you have made here.
There are a lot of layers (of human activity) between us and the "Living word of God".

Many today put more trust in the layer cake of a Bible they hold in their hands than the direct revelation some of us enjoy.

Acts 2:17-18 NIV
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

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[St. SteVen]

Acts 2:17-18 NIV
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

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[Brakelite]

Example.
“And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. ”
Matthew 8:28 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: ”
Mark 5:1-3 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

Two witnesses to an event never necessarily agree on every detail. This discrepancy is considered by the justice system as being favourable as to the veracity of the event being witnessed, as opposed to a concocted story to boost someone's evil agenda.

 

[St. SteVen]

Two witnesses to an event never necessarily agree on every detail. This discrepancy is considered by the justice system as being favourable as to the veracity of the event being witnessed, as opposed to a concocted story to boost someone's evil agenda.

Agree.
And why can't we just be honest about the contradictions and not cling to false claims?

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[St. SteVen]

Two opposing views cannot both be biblical.

(quote lifted from The Unity and Division Threads... topic)
Can two opposing views both be biblical?

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[Brakelite]

Agree.
And why can't we just be honest about the contradictions and not cling to false claims?

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Not necessarily false. The Bible is infallible in one sense... principle and morality. Those who wrote the various books were God's penmen, not God's pen. God did not dictate every word. He gave visions, thoughts, inspiration, and the various authors wrote those thoughts down, described those visions and dreams, in their own words according to their own perceptions. Ultimately, the goal and purpose of the scriptures were fulfilled. Jesus was exalted.

 

[St. SteVen]

Not necessarily false. The Bible is infallible in one sense... principle and morality. Those who wrote the various books were God's penmen, not God's pen. God did not dictate every word. He gave visions, thoughts, inspiration, and the various authors wrote those thoughts down, described those visions and dreams, in their own words according to their own perceptions. Ultimately, the goal and purpose of the scriptures were fulfilled. Jesus was exalted.

Agree.

Is the word "infallible" the right word? The caveat helps, but... ???

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[RedFan]

Biblical inconsistencies come in two basic types. Some passages are literally consistent, i.e., they do not contradict each other – but they present contradictory pictures of God or of His commands. (Let’s call these theologically inconsistent passages.) Others are literally inconsistent, giving differing factual accounts of the same event. I see a lot more instances of the latter than of the former.

 

[Wrangler]

This may not be a contradiction but when I read this in Devotional reading, I thought of this thread. In the NRSV Cultural Bible, there is an article about 1:46 entitled, "Numbers In Numbers." It states

With an able body militia of over 600,000 and an additional population of 22,273 Levites, the total population of Israel coming out of Egypt would have easily exceeded 2 million (cf Ex 12:37, 38:26, Num 11:21) Internal evidence from the Bible and external data both cause considerable difficulty accepting these figures at face value. The numbering of the Levites at 22,000 for the redemption of the first born of Israel's males (well over 603,550 [Num 1:46], if firstborn males under age 20 are included), would mean the average Israelite woman bore more than 27 males, plus females.​

How is that for being saved in childbirth @VictoryinJesus? The article goes on to suggest hyperbole (a non-literal, figurative use of language) in using such figures for rhetorical value, expected by the ancient reader. This makes modern reader's identify the hyperbolic, figurative language usage as contradiction.

An honest Christian must recognize the pattern that every time a literal Bible verse comes across scientific evidence (such as archeological findings) and is found wanting, apologists retreat to figurative (or as @VictoryinJesus prefers, Spiritual) language. <sigh>

 

[Wrangler]

Others are literally inconsistent, giving differing factual accounts of the same event. I see a lot more instances of the latter than of the former.

I watched a vid a few years ago that explored this in detail regarding the Gospel accounts. The vid included police detectives experience in interviewing eye witnesses to an event. There are always inconsistencies based on the witnesses point of view. Their view is blocked as the event unfolds. So, some witnesses provide more details at the beginning while other witnesses at the middle or end of the event.

In addition, some witnesses are more sensitive to color or height or position. For instance, I might be confident of the relative timeline and position of the people involved in the event but could not elaborate on the race or sex of the participants. For another witness, the opposite is the case. They are highly confident of the race, sex and height of the participants but cannot say with much conviction the timeline of events and position relative to fixed objects. These investigators even said that if the eye witnesses ever told the exact same story, it would be suspicious that collusion is involved.

From this, the police investigators conclude the different Gospel accounts of the same event is consistent with the human experience.

 

[St. SteVen]

These investigators even said that if the eye witnesses ever told the exact same story, it would be suspicious that collusion is involved.

From this, the police investigators conclude the different Gospel accounts of the same event is consistent with the human experience.

Thanks.
To everyone participating, actually. This has been a healthy discussion.

Seems good to expose this biblical contradictions bogeyman for what it really is.

We would have a better outcome, it seems to me, if we disarmed
the accusation of biblical contradictions by owning up to it.

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[amigo de christo]

Who cares? No doctrine is affected by the timing of the tree's death.

Here's a bigger issue...

The first 7 chapters of Leviticus require a number of different animal sacrifices, for various sins, to appease God. Exodus contains a couple chapters about how God gave a specific design for the Israelite Tabernacle.

But the prophet Amos has God Himself saying that he HATES the Israelites' sacrifices, and that they were not devoted to Him, but for foreign gods, and even that the Tabernacle was for those foreign gods:

I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. (Amos 5)

No contradiction at all . It was the heart behind the sacrifice that GOD despised .
Many were already sacrificing to other gods and would then come to HIS own house
and still offer up the sacrifices to GOD . IT was ritual only baby . THEY had zero love for GOD .
the sacifice dont mean squat if the heart is not for GOD .
MANY are and were LIP only . just did the routine but had no heart for GOD .
kinda like confession time for some . OH they party all week
and on a sunday go to a preacher as a cover . But their heart is not WITH or FOR GOD .
its empty and dead faith . GOD dont like that .

 

[amigo de christo]

God judges the action of the heart , the Israelites hearts were not in the right place in Amos 5 . Their offerings were of a ritualistic nature and they were not worshiping God from the heart .

Bingo my friend .

 

[Lambano]

Somehow I end up being the bad guy here. By upsetting the status quo.

"Nobody loves the quality control engineer".

 

[Lambano]

I watched a vid a few years ago that explored this in detail regarding the Gospel accounts. The vid included police detectives experience in interviewing eye witnesses to an event. There are always inconsistencies based on the witnesses point of view.

Thank you, Wrangler; I'd been meaning to bring that up.

For certain inconsistencies (like who and how many went to tomb to anoint the body), that actually lends some authenticity to the accounts. It may not meet the criteria of "inerrancy", but this is what really happens when you gather a bunch of eye-witness accounts.

Not inerrant - but authentic.

 

[Lambano]

But I still say that the fact that Matthew and Luke have totally different stories about the fate of Judas Iscariot is evidence that there was a conspiracy among the disciples to cover up the fact that St. Simon the Zealot slit Judas's throat in some Jerusalem back alley. Zealots knew how to handle traitors.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This may not be a contradiction but when I read this in Devotional reading, I thought of this thread. In the NRSV Cultural Bible, there is an article about 1:46 entitled, "Numbers In Numbers." It states

With an able body militia of over 600,000 and an additional population of 22,273 Levites, the total population of Israel coming out of Egypt would have easily exceeded 2 million (cf Ex 12:37, 38:26, Num 11:21) Internal evidence from the Bible and external data both cause considerable difficulty accepting these figures at face value. The numbering of the Levites at 22,000 for the redemption of the first born of Israel's males (well over 603,550 [Num 1:46], if firstborn males under age 20 are included), would mean the average Israelite woman bore more than 27 males, plus females.​

How is that for being saved in childbirth @VictoryinJesus? The article goes on to suggest hyperbole (a non-literal, figurative use of language) in using such figures for rhetorical value, expected by the ancient reader. This makes modern reader's identify the hyperbolic, figurative language usage as contradiction.

An honest Christian must recognize the pattern that every time a literal Bible verse comes across scientific evidence (such as archeological findings) and is found wanting, apologists retreat to figurative (or as @VictoryinJesus prefers, Spiritual) language. <sigh>

All I know is what I’ve experienced. I have two daughters and five grandchildren(no seven, two by marriage see, I even have respect of persons). I was naive and blind (blind as blind can be) when I gave birth to my two daughters. I did horrible things as a mother…and can relate to where Paul said “those things you are now ashamed of”. It is Not my daughters I’m ashamed of, but all the ways I failed being “godly”. I know it’s not literal. For if it’s literal then there is NO hope for me or my daughters or my generations(including boy grandchildren growing unto men). Bs is telling mothers it is through their (flesh) godliness and giving birth (to flesh) is the childbearing that saves them. It fails. My mother still tells me she never did anything wrong as a mother and she had no part in my brother whom is now deceased being damaged. I haven’t met a parent yet that has not failed in some way. It’s self righteous denial to think otherwise. Children of bible fearing parents, can be just as rebellious as those born in an unbelieving home. All eventually have to turn to God as the perfect Parent. Even if they don’t want to admit it. I’m trying to point at God, New Jerusalem, Jesus Christ and being born ANEW of God (Spirit, say it’s not so!) as the childbearing that saves, since Christ is the first fruit that opened the way to “born of God”. There was a time I pleaded with God to be the Parent to my family that I never was. For Him to be what saves them out of my destruction of an repeated curse upon a curse handed down from one generation to the next. I can’t deny the repeating of the curse. It’s only Him that can save. Even if I’m wrong about the verses …as you say. I don’t think I’m wrong for taking the focus off a mother in the hospital giving birth to a baby that will eventually come to need the same thing the childs mother needs, “A New Birth” given of God, where the woman is saved through Childbearing by Jesus Christ. “Unto us a Sin is given!” Opps I mean “unto us a Son is Given!” Define that woman however you want, but that woman is not earthly for her womb is the “good ground” where the seed(Christ) is planted, grows (increases) of God.

 

[Wrangler]

We would have a better outcome, it seems to me, if we disarmed
the accusation of biblical contradictions by owning up to it.

Always. The same is true in politics and recently stated in a vid I watched the other day. The host stated the Democrats CANNOT acknowledge the reason millions of people support Trump. They suffer cognitive dissonance

1. Anyone who supports Trump is garbage.
2. I will unite the American people.

I've recently embraced the term "gaslighting," a basic denial of reality; presenting a false narrative of reality. Christian apologists do that when they assert there are no contradictions in the Bible in the face of apparent contradictions. I say "apparent" contradictions because they can be easily reconciled - but only after acknowledging them.

IMO, this makes for far more effective evangelism; to take away the ammo unbelievers have. The central message of Scripture does not depend on reconciling obscure verses. Our faith does not depend on mastery of ancient languages or even knowledge, generally. No argument, not even an argument about apparent contradictions in ancient text, can stand up to our experience with the living God!

Most Christians are not theologians. They may incorrectly believe there are 4 Gospels. This unintended Strawman invites unbelievers to discredit the faith based on inconsistencies among but 4 testimonies.

The truth is much more powerful than this. There is only one Gospel, the Good News of Jesus Christ. The testimony, the eye witness accounts are in the billions over the millennia. They have experienced the living God and so have I. That is the unshakable truth we stand on. Not on a book.