Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[Matthias]

Hey, either the angels were co-creators, of the Speaker was not referring to them, and was referring to Another is was co-creator. Anyway, I'm tired of just circling around this.

Much love!

The angels weren’t co-creators, God spoke with them before he created the heavens and the earth, and God didn’t have a co-creator when he created the heavens and the earth, alone, by himself.

When we get tired of circling, the wise thing to do is stop and rest. Tomorrow’s another day.

 

[marks]

No problem, but watch out for the fools who say it is.

What? You've lost me.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

What? You've lost me.

Much love!

Don’t worry about it. I’ve been dealing with a foolish person today. You can see it for yourself, if you want to waste time doing it.

But remember this, you knocked on my door. I didn’t come looking for you.

 

[marks]

When we get tired of circling,

Already there, I'm not planning to continue, I think we've said what there is to be said.

Apparently.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Already there, I'm not planning to continue, I think we've said what there is to be said.

Apparently.

Much love!

That’s fine. I have more to say about it, but I’ll save it for another time.

 

[marks]

Don’t worry about it. I’ve been dealing with a foolish person today. You can see it for yourself, if you want to waste time doing it.

But remember this, you knocked on my door. I didn’t come looking for you.

It's cool, I'm just saying, To me, this convo is dodging something simple.

Anyway, I've lost interest in pursuing it, so . . .

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

It's cool, I'm just saying, To me, this convo is dodging something simple.

Anyway, I've lost interest in pursuing it, so . . .

Much love!

It is simple, until we move away from Jewish monotheism.

I’ll be around. Call again, any time you want to. I’ll leave the porch light on for you.

 

[Peterlag]

Sounds like a bunch of human reasoning to me! What is that worth? Add $3 to it and you can get a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

But what did Paul say?

Co. 1:16-20
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Look at the bold, Peterlag, and tell me that the Creator is not Jesus Christ, if you want to deny the Scripture!

Who did Paul say Christ is? And what is the Creator called in Scripture? Is it not God?

"For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

So tell me, if Christ is the Creator as Paul said, what does that make Him?

I have an OP on that Colossians 1:16.

 

[Charlie24]

I have an OP on that Colossians 1:16.

How about Heb. 1:10? How do you like that one?

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

 

[marks]

I’ll be around. Call again, any time you want to. I’ll leave the porch light on for you.

I'd be interested if you cared to reconcile how God was not talking to a co-creator when He said, let US make man in OUR image . . . I think that's where it went off the rails. It's up to you.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

I'd be interested if you cared to reconcile how God was not talking to a co-creator when He said, let US make man in OUR image . . . I think that's where it went off the rails. It's up to you.

Much love!

God created alone, by himself. He wasn’t talking to a co-creator. The angels he spoke to before he created the heavens and the earth - the angelic court - are also created in the image of God.

I alluded to a particular trinitarian scholar I recently quoted on the forum who makes this point. He isn’t alone.

Rest. Let’s talk again when you’re refreshed.

 

[Peterlag]

How about Heb. 1:10? How do you like that one?

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

It looks like it's referring to God. God laid the foundations and therefore the Lord here must be God. It can't be Jesus in this verse because he did not lay the foundations.

 

[marks]

God created alone, by himself. He wasn’t talking to a co-creator. The angels he spoke to before he created the heavens and the earth - the angelic court - are also created in the image of God.

I alluded to a particular trinitarian scholar I recently quoted on the forum who makes this point. He isn’t alone.

Rest. Let’s talk again when you’re refreshed.

So then, my point being this. Aren't you then saying that while the plain saying of this Scripture according to the normal use of language says one thing, that it really means something different than that?

When I say to someone, let's go to the mall, I'm meaning we both go, right? Let's create something, we both create. Isn't that language?

As I understand it, you are asserting that God was using language meant more to be inclusive than accurate, is that correct? Let us make man in our image, well, I mean, really, I'm going to be the one making man in my image, but I'm saying "us" because you're here and all. Do I have the right idea about how you are thinking of this?

I find most if not all debates about Scripture come down to this very sort of thing.

Oh, and I'll be sleeping later on, but thank you for your concern! I've just been trying to arrive at the destination is all. I'm glad we've been able to reach this point.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

I started reading this Roman Catholic article on the heavenly court this afternoon and finished it this evening. For those interested, it gives a nice overview of the subject.

The Court of God | EWTN

 

[Wrangler]

I started reading this Roman Catholic article on the heavenly court this afternoon and finished it this evening. For those interested, it gives a nice overview of the subject.

The Court of God | EWTN

I've been wanting to read up on this. Thanks so much for posting this!

 

[Matthias]

So then, my point being this. Aren't you then saying that while the plain saying of this Scripture according to the normal use of language says one thing, that it really means something different than that?

No. I’m simply saying that God consulted with the angelic court before he acted.

When I say to someone, let's go to the mall, I'm meaning we both go, right? Let's create something, we both create. Isn't that language?

Yes.

As I understand it, you are asserting that God was using language meant more to be inclusive than accurate, is that correct?

No. I’m asserting that God made an announcement to the angelic court. The court played a role in God’s decision to act; a role which didn’t call upon them to be co-creators.

Let us make man in our image, well, I mean, really, I'm going to be the one making man in my image, but I'm saying "us" because you're here and all. Do I have the right idea about how you are thinking of this?

No. They weren’t just there. They were involved in the discussion about what God was planning to do.

I find most if not all debates about Scripture come down to this very sort of thing.

I’m not interested in debating. I’m interested in discussion.

Oh, and I'll be sleeping later on, but thank you for your concern! I've just been trying to arrive at the destination is all.

Much love!

You’re welcome.

 

[Charlie24]

It looks like it's referring to God. God laid the foundations and therefore the Lord here must be God. It can't be Jesus in this verse because he did not lay the foundations.

Back up to vs.4 and read it through, you will see who is speaking to who.

It is God the Father speaking to God the Son as Paul dictates.

 

[Matthias]

I've been wanting to read up on this. Thanks so much for posting this!

I think you’ll find it interesting. Much of it you should be able to agree with; some of it you won’t. Take from it what you can in good conscience.

I think it’s a fascinating subject and deserving of more discussion than it typically receives. I suspect that’s because our knowledge of it is so limited. The focus in scripture is on God and man, not God and angels. They’re certainly a part of the story, our story, though.

P.S.

If you come across other good sources of information on the angelic court, please let me know.

 

[Charlie24]

It looks like it's referring to God. God laid the foundations and therefore the Lord here must be God. It can't be Jesus in this verse because he did not lay the foundations.

Also notice in that scripture vs. 8, the Father calls the Son, "O God" your throne is forever.

 

[WalkInLight]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

Jesus is Gods word in human form. Every part of God is eternal, and any part expressed in any form is God and eternal.
I used to think God to be God had to be all of Him in any one place. But the Lord is eternal, so dwarfs anything created.

How we perceive the eternal will always be limited as created beings. We have but that which He reveals to us.
Independent, able to think and express Himself, Jesus, was still part of God and who He is. They are one and also 3.

One advantage of eternity, is the smallest thing is infinitely greater than created things. Our expression or voice could
not become a being, because it is bounded by our limited existence.

Are we real, and what is existence? We do not know we just know we are here and now and driven by our emotional
loyalties to others and sometimes to our desires alone. Jesus calls us to make things complete, to trust, to become open
and bow the knee and follow in repentance and learning. And not because of a name or a claim, but because we desire to
know love and follow its ways. Which is a strange contradiction. To love that which is love, is a bit of a no brainer unless
sin has gripped ones soul and lost it in hurt and darkness.

God bless you