Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[marks]

Some words are like that in Hebrew. Elohim is one of them, but not the only one.

Menahem Mansoor wrote a popular two-volume textbook titled Biblical Hebrew Step-By-Step. In Volume 1 he addresses this in Lesson Twenty-two, “Dual Number”. In Section 2 he gives six examples of “Nouns with Plural Form Only” - God, mercy, life, face, water and sky, heaven.

The Gods (elohim - plural form, plural meaning) of Israel is unheard of; it’s polytheism. Trinitarian scholars don’t translate it that way. Non-trinitarian scholars don’t translate it that way either.

The God (elohim - plural form, singular meaning) of Israel is monotheism. Trinitarian scholars translate it that way. Non-trinitarian scholars translate it that way too.

To insist that elohim must mean plural because the word is plural in form - which it always is - is to insist on polytheism.

Interestingly, I've long understood that this word is found referring to God in three different forms, including El, Eloh, and Elohim, being 1, 2, and 3 or more. But I'll be the first to say I'm not an Hebrew scholar!

Polytheism is the humanist way to view the Trinity.

In who's image is man created? Let us make man in our image. What is your answer to that? Curious is all.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Interestingly, I've long understood that this word is found referring to God in three different forms, including El, Eloh, and Elohim, being 1, 2, and 3 or more. But I'll be the first to say I'm not an Hebrew scholar!

Elohim can mean more than one; can be plural in meaning. When it is, it’s always talking about pagan deities. 1 Kings 11:33 is a good example. Ashtoreth, Chemosh and Milcom are individually elohim (singular) “god or goddess” and collectively elohim (plural) “gods and goddess”). It’s never plural in meaning when applied to the deity of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Polytheism is the humanist way to view the Trinity.

The Trinity is a monotheistic deity; trinitarianism is a monotheistic religion.

It isn’t the strict monotheism of Jewish unitary monotheism.

In who's image is man created? Let us make man in our image. What is your answer to that? Curious is all.

Much love!

Genesis 1:1. God. (Elohim. Theos.)

“Us” isn’t referring to God alone. God is speaking to someone who isn’t God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

“Us” isn’t referring to God alone. God is speaking to someone who isn’t God.

Who would that be, who helped God make man?

 

[marks]

Elohim can mean more than one; can be plural in meaning. When it is, it’s always talking about pagan deities. 1 Kings 11:33 is a good example. Ashtoreth, Chemosh and Milcom are individually elohim (singular) “god or goddess” and collectively elohim (plural) “gods and goddess”). It’s never plural in meaning when applied to the deity of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.



The Trinity is a monotheistic deity; trinitarianism is a monotheistic religion.

It isn’t the strict monotheism of Jewish unitary monotheism.



Genesis 1:1. God. (Elohim. Theos.)

“Us” isn’t referring to God alone. God is speaking to someone who isn’t God.

Who was He speaking to?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Who would that be, who helped God make man?

Great minds and all!

;)

 

[Matthias]

Who was He speaking to?

Much love!

If he wasn’t speaking to himself, then our options are severely limited. Trinitarian scholarship recognizes this and suggests that God was speaking to his angelic court. See, for example, the trinitarian commentary in the NET.

Genesis 1

God created alone, by himself, without the agency of anyone else, but he spoke of it beforehand with the angels.

P.S.

Are the angels created in the image of God? JAT says, no. Trinitarian scholarship says to JAT, not so fast.

 

[marks]

If he wasn’t speaking to himself, then our options are severely limited. Trinitarian scholarship recognizes this and suggests that God was speaking to his angelic court. See, for example, the trinitarian commentary in the NET.

Genesis 1

God created alone, by himself, without the agency of anyone else, but he spoke of it beforehand with the angels.

P.S.

Are the angels created in the image of God? JAT says, no. Trinitarian scholarship says to JAT, not so fast.

He said, Let us make . . ., are you saying angels were the co-creators of man?

BTW . . . the Trinity affirming teaching I hear have the Father speaking to the Son. I imagine sources can found for many things, I'm just saying in my years of hearing about these things, that's what I've long heard.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

He said, Let us make . . ., are you saying angels were the co-creators of man?

No. I said that God created alone, by himself, without the agency of anyone else.

If nothing else, that should suffice to demonstrate that I don’t agree with the JWs.

BTW . . . the Trinity affirming teaching I hear had the Father speaking to the Son. I imaging sources can found for many things, I'm just saying in my years of hearing about these things, that's what I've long heard.

Much love!

That poor Holy Spirit person. He can’t get no respect.

 

[marks]

No. I said that God created alone, by himself, without the agency of anyone else.

Ok, because He said, Let us create . . . indicating "co-creators". Or is this another example of a plural meaning singular?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That poor Holy Spirit person. He can’t get no respect.

He didn't come to testify of Himself.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Ok, because He said, Let us create . . . indicating "co-creators".

In regard to the Genesis creation event, God doesn’t have a co-creator. God is the sole creator, in Jewish monotheism.

Or is this another example of a plural meaning singular?

Much love!

Elohim - always plural in form, no exceptions - is always singular in meaning, no exceptions - when used in reference to the creator.

God (elohim - plural in form, singular in meaning) created the heavens and the earth, alone, by himself (Isaiah 44:24)

 

[Matthias]

He didn't come to testify of Himself.

Much love!

In the trinitarian circles you mentioned in post #147, he wasn’t involved in the “us” conversation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And God said, Let us..

But he was just talking to Angels?

How easy we can just destroy the word.

 

[marks]

In regard to the Genesis creation event, God doesn’t have a co-creator. God is the sole creator, in Jewish monotheism.

Then why did He say, Let us create . . .? If He were not speaking to a co-creator?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Then why did He say, Let us create . . .? If He were not speaking to a co-creator?

Much love!

He? That’s a singular personal pronoun. It doesn’t fit your scenario. “He” is one person.

More apropos: Why did They say, Let us create …?

But then that’s not what Moses wrote, is it?

I posted a video clip from Michael Brown’s trinitarian radio call-program, Line of Fire. If you haven’t seen it, I recommend it.

Back to God. Why did he say what he said to the angelic court? That’s a fine question. What role did the angelic court play prior to the creation? Let’s think about it.

Do you even believe that God has an angelic court? If you do, do you believe he spoke with the court before he acted? If so, why did he speak to the court?

 

[Matthias]

I’m aware that the JWs believe God had a co-creator (Michael the Archangel) when he created the heavens and the earth.

Now I’m hearing trinitarians say that God didn’t create the heavens and the earth, alone, by Himself; that God Himself had a co-creator - Himself. And only two of Himself discussed it amongst Himself.

That’s wilder than a March hare.

 

[Matthias]

Then why did He say, Let us create . . .? If He were not speaking to a co-creator?

Much love!

A nit picking question : You capitalized “He.” Why didn’t you capitalize “us”? I don’t think it changed your position. I’m just curious.

 

[marks]

He? That’s a singular personal pronoun. It doesn’t fit your scenario. “He” is one person.

More apropos: Why did They say, Let us create …?

But then that’s not what Moses wrote, is it?

I posted a video clip from Michael Brown’s trinitarian radio call-program, Line of Fire. If you haven’t seen it, I recommend it.

Back to God. Why did he say what he said to the angelic court? That’s a fine question. What role did the angelic court play prior to the creation? Let’s think about it.

Do you even believe that God has an angelic court? If you do, do you believe he spoke with the court before he acted? If so, why did he speak to the court?

Hey, either the angels were co-creators, of the Speaker was not referring to them, and was referring to Another is was co-creator. Anyway, I'm tired of just circling around this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

A nit picking question :

Not interested.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Not interested.

Much love!

No problem, but watch out for the fools who say it is.