Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[Phoneman777]

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of New Testament commands on day one of our service to be saved (after we are saved by God’s grace)?

The charge has been claimed by Belief Alone Salvationists that you must obey all of the New Testament commands (or that you must reach a state of Sinless Perfection whereby you can never sin again) in order for salvation by obedience to be valid after you are saved by God’s grace. This is why many believe that all you have to do is just believe in Jesus for salvation or the finished work of the cross and you are good to enter the Kingdom.

I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification is a process of living holy by the Spirit. It’s why Romans 8:13 says but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit you will live (i.e. live eternally). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. These verses would not make any sense if we were automatically perfectly obeying all of the Lord’s commands in the New Testament on day one and we could never slip up on rare occasion and break God’s commands ever again. Granted, I am not against a new believer being able to do that. I would be for the brethren doing that since day one if we had strong Christian leaders training new converts to obey in all things right away. But that’s not always the reality for everyone. The thief on the cross was saved without works. But for those who live out their faith: I believe God gives us grace and time to learn His Word and to study it so as to know His will and to learn how to obey God.

Abraham did not even fulfill the command by God to take his son’s life. Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac and yet God was telling him to do that. God was testing Abraham’s loyalty. So it’s a willingness of our heart to obey God. For example: We are told to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost teaching them all things that Christ commanded. Can you do that on day one after you are saved? What if you are in the mountains and there is nobody but you and the other person who led you to Jesus? Again, can you know of all of what Christ commands on day one? I imagine in some circumstances you could (if you had the right teachers). But is one not saved while they are still learning of those commands and they are not obeying them yet? This is why I believe there is grace. This grace is not a license for immorality of us thinking we can willfully sin. No, no. Most certainly not. We must seek to obey God in everything. Why? Because it is a part of our faith. It is our willingness to obey that I believe God is looking at before we can learn of that command and put into action. I say this because how many of you here are obeying the great commission in baptizing others in the name of Jesus (i.e. the name (singular) that represents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)? That’s a command by Jesus. Are you doing it? Are you not saved because you have not done so yet? I don’t believe so. I believe God gives us grace and time to do those things He desires of us. We should pray and ask God for help to obey Him in all things.

This also does not mean that we do not have to obey God as a part of God’s plan of salvation, either. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel). The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the CALL of the gospel is our Sanctification (living holy by the Spirit and putting away sin and learning to know how to obey God), and continuing to believe the doctrines and or truths in the Bible.

Note: I believe that if a Christian sins (like say looking upon a woman in lust, or not forgiving someone), they must confess and forsake that sin. Believers need to strive to seek to obey all of God’s commands. This is a part of living by faith. If we are not seeking to obey God as a part of the Kingdom, we are simply seeking to be our own lords and masters. God calls us to obedience and to pick up our cross and to deny ourselves. We have to count the cost and we have to be willing to give up all for the Lord Jesus. Again, this takes time for many of us to learn. There are many tests of our faith along the way. Our faith is not always a walk in the park. Jesus said, strive to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). So yes. We should be striving to obey the commands that come from the Lord Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. But I believe God gives us grace to get there. For grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).

An apple tree doesn't produce apples in order to be an apple tree - it's because it's an apple tree.

An apple tree ain't an apple tree if it doesn't produce apples - a Christian ain't a Christian if he lives in sin.

 

[mailmandan]

An apple tree doesn't produce apples in order to be an apple tree - it's because it's an apple tree.

An apple tree ain't an apple tree if it doesn't produce apples - a Christian ain't a Christian if he lives in sin.

Excellent analogy about an apple tree and producing apples (fruit). An apple tree produces apples BECAUSE it's a living apple tree and not in order to become a living apple tree. It's the same with faith and works (fruit). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Life flows through the root and produces fruit and not the other way around.

 

[Gospel Believer]

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of their salvation. Their hands are FULL OF THEIR WORKS/SELF PERFORMANCE and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. At best, such people only trust in Christ as their "initial" Savior, but not their ultimate Savior. Truly sad. Self righteousness is a cancer to the gospel.

They acknowledge that Jesus is perhaps “ Essential” for Salvation.....they just don’t Believe that he is “ Adequate” for Salvation....their Pride deceives them into thinking that they will be the “ CO- Savior”......That Glory That should 100% belong to Christ alone? They insist on having a piece of it.......kinda like the Pride of Satan that says, “ I will be like the Most High!”

 

[Gospel Believer]

An apple tree doesn't produce apples in order to be an apple tree - it's because it's an apple tree.

An apple tree ain't an apple tree if it doesn't produce apples - a Christian ain't a Christian if he lives in sin.

I guess that Paul should not be considered a Christian, according to your confused thinking —- he called himself “ The CHIEF Of Sinners” and admitted to doing things that he Hated......that admission of Sin was written about in Romans Chapter 7.....He had been Saved for at least 10 years when he wrote that....

 

[Phoneman777]

Excellent analogy about an apple tree and producing apples (fruit). An apple tree produces apples BECAUSE it's a living apple tree and not in order to become a living apple tree. It's the same with faith and works (fruit). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Life flows through the root and produces fruit and not the other way around.

It couldn't have been said any better than you've stated it. It's a truth that indicts all of us. There's no excuse for us to indulge deliberate, known, presumptuous sin. If we're prayed up and studied up on Scripture and truly striving against sin and have the faith you speak of, then we'll take that "way of escape" God promises will accompany every temptation He allows.

But, thankfully, God even delights in forgiving deliberate, known, presumptuous sin aka "iniquity" - however His mercy won't cripple His justice, and if we persist in refusing that way of escape, we only show that we lack saving faith.

 

[Phoneman777]

I guess that Paul should not be considered a Christian, according to your confused thinking —- he called himself “ The CHIEF Of Sinners” and admitted to doing things that he Hated......that admission of Sin was written about in Romans Chapter 7.....He had been Saved for at least 10 years when he wrote that....

Depends on what kind of sin of which Paul claimed to be chief: the sin of the "Just Man" who falls 7 times but rises again and is covered by grace until Jesus comes, or...

...the "Presumptuous Man" who deliberately climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down comfortably among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and pushes his OSAS License to Sin in His face...that man is going to split hell wide open, no matter how much he raises his praise hands in church and shouts "freedom in Christ!".

If you need verses, I got verses...

 

[Gospel Believer]

Depends on what kind of sin of which Paul claimed to be chief: the sin of the "Just Man" who falls 7 times but rises again and is covered by grace until Jesus comes, or...

...the "Presumptuous Man" who deliberately climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down comfortably among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and pushes his OSAS License to Sin in His face...that man is going to split hell wide open, no matter how much he raises his praise hands in church and shouts "freedom in Christ!".

If you need verses, I got verses...

Save your computer ink.....I’ve got verses too.....you aren’t gonna show me a verse that I have not seen 50 times before .....all your verses that seem to show that one can lose their Salvation will have at least one of two errors.....they will either be verses taken out of context or they will be verses that are not being addressed to Gospel Believers.....I got one Topper, however , that Nobody has been able to argue with — Jesus said This in John 5:24—“ Everyone That BELIEVES in me ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation—- They ALREADY have passed from Death unto Life”.... Case Closed.

 

[Phoneman777]

.....all your verses that seem to show that one can lose their Salvation will have at least one of two errors.....they will either be verses taken out of context...

The only pretexts I see are on the part of the OSAS crowd.

...or they will be verses that are not being addressed to Gospel Believers

There's no such thing as "ecclesiastical diplomatic immunity" - read what Ezekiel says about the righteous man who turns from righteousness...or read about the saints in Matthew 24:12-13 KJV Jesus says will wind up lost, in stark contrast to the saint He says will "endure to the end" and be "saved".

.....I got one Topper, however , that Nobody has been able to argue with — Jesus said This in John 5:24—“ Everyone That BELIEVES in me ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation—- They ALREADY have passed from Death unto Life”.... Case Closed.

Prime example for why there's so much doctrinal confusion: read one verse, close the Bible. Let's see what this "believe" you speak of is all about:

"If ye continue in My word, then are ye are My disciples indeed".​

"Abide in Me...If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch...and they are burned.​

"Whosoever...abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth (has God).​

So, "believe" isn't limited to the mere "mental assent" the OSAS crowd wants it to be - integral to that is "continual surrender to Christ's will". The saints who cease from "believing" and say to Him "not Thy will, but mine" are going to wind up in hell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Excellent analogy about an apple tree and producing apples (fruit). An apple tree produces apples BECAUSE it's a living apple tree and not in order to become a living apple tree. It's the same with faith and works (fruit). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Life flows through the root and produces fruit and not the other way around.

James says, “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).
Jesus says, “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” (Matthew 12:33).

It’s like the sheep and the goats. One is a sheep or a goat based on what they did or did not do in Matthew 25:31-46.
The key is one listening to the devil or God. If we abide in the Lord we will do good things. If we abide in Satan, we will sin and justify evil things. It’s just that simple.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Save your computer ink.....I’ve got verses too.....you aren’t gonna show me a verse that I have not seen 50 times before .....all your verses that seem to show that one can lose their Salvation will have at least one of two errors.....they will either be verses taken out of context or they will be verses that are not being addressed to Gospel Believers.....I got one Topper, however , that Nobody has been able to argue with — Jesus said This in John 5:24—“ Everyone That BELIEVES in me ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation—- They ALREADY have passed from Death unto Life”.... Case Closed.

We have to hear (obey) and believe in order to pass from death unto life.

John 5:24 (EXB)
”I tell you the truth [Truly, truly I say to you], whoever hears [obeys] what I say [my word/message] and believes in the One who sent me has eternal life. That person will not ·be judged guilty [come into judgment/condemnation] but has ·already left death and entered life [passed from death into life].

The same concept of hearing meaning obedience can be seen in Acts 3:23.

Speaking of Jesus, Acts 3:23 says,
“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

Obviously just to listen to Jesus and then not obey His words means one is not really listening to Jesus.

Jesus tells the Pharisees (who did the lusts of their father, the devil):

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
(John 8:47)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand.

For the reader who is seeking the truth:

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about how you are initially saved (See: Ephesians 2:1-3).
For when we are saved by God’s grace, we did not do any major work to be saved but we trusted in the Lord to forgive us and we trusted in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15. We believe Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day. We believe he was seen by many witnesses. We believe that the grace of God can make us to labor abundantly. That’s good news!

In addition, Ephesians 2:9 talks about works you would boast in (Which would be man directed works).
Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about God directed works we are created unto Christ Jesus to do.
Boasting is excluded if it involves the law of faith (See: Romans 3:27).

Why?

Because you are not doing your own man made work but you are only doing what God told you to do by faith.
So if you are doing a good work God told you to do… boasting is excluded because you would give praise to God for any good done in your life. The LORD is not saying not to do good works in regards to salvation as a blanket ban statement. We see in Galatians 6:8-9 that if we sow to the Spirit by well doing we will reap everlasting life. We know that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So if there are not works, our faith is dead. Therefore, works are required as a part of our faith or as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

Again, when you read Paul on him speaking negatively of works and the Law… think about Acts 15.
In Acts 15 tells us about those Jews who were trying to deceive Gentile Christians to be saved by first being circumcised.
Paul himself says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing in Galatians 5:2, but then in Galatians 5:4 Paul then says if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace. So Paul is referring to the problem of those who had to be circumcised in order to be saved. But Paul was not against us living holy as a part of entering the Kingdom. Paul mentions in Galatians 5:19-21 a list of sins (fornication, adultery, murders, strife, envy, idolatry, etc.) and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So it’s not a belief alone in Jesus that will save you. If you abide in sin, or you justify some kind of sin, or if you unfruitful, you will not be saved. You see 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on a smaller level and not as a means to practice sin. You believe you must sin again a little bit because of 1 John 1:8. But that is not what 1 John 1:8 is saying. It’s a warning to the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is talking about the false belief where a person is thinking sin is an illusion or is not real. 1 John 1:9 gives us the proper way to deal with sin instead of ignoring it in one’s life (as if it was non-existent). We must confess of our sins to be forgiven of them. If you don’t confess, you will not be forgiven. This again destroys belief alone salvationism.

It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of their salvation.

But here is the problem.

There is no actual verse in the Bible that says we are to only trust in Jesus Christ (a mental ascent) as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Which does not include works, not sinning, etc.). For if you are promoting that you don’t need works to be saved and you don’t need to stop sinning to be saved, then you are by default secretly promoting lawlessness under God’s grace (whether you want that or not).

Now, granted at other times, I heard you say that works and a holy life will follow a true saving faith. But you believe works do not save even though they are some kind of after effect of saving faith. This is a contradiction. If you really believed that works and holy living following a saving faith, then you would say that is a part of the salvation package or God’s plan of salvation. For even in your own rule book, a faith that does not produce some kind of works or a life of not practicing sin is not a true genuine saving faith. So you back end in works and holy living as a part of saving faith but you are embarrassed to admit the truth that this is salvation by works.

Again, the way to reconcile Paul and James on the “Law / works” issue is to understand that…

#1. Paul is talking about being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation and how we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a package deal (and not particular commands that have been repeated into the New Testament Laws of Christ - like love God and love your neighbor).

#2. James is talking about a Continued Faith lived out (after we are saved by God’s grace without works In our Initial Salvation). James is saying that if a faith does not eventually produced good fruit or works it is a dead faith. So this means that you cannot be saved if you do not do any good works as a part of your faith.

Their hands are FULL OF THEIR WORKS/SELF PERFORMANCE and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. At best, such people only trust in Christ as their "initial" Savior, but not their ultimate Savior. Truly sad. Self righteousness is a cancer to the gospel.

I believe Jesus is our ultimate Savior, as well. If a Christian sins, they do not do good works to absolve that sin. They go to Jesus Christ and His grace by confessing of that sin to Him in order to be forgiven of it. But some in the Belief Alone Camp see even confessing sins as a work and therefore they don’t think continual confession of sin is necessary as a part of salvation. They just believe in trusted in the finished work of the cross (Which is another Belief Alone Christian saying that is not in the Bible). A believer also continues their whole life to stand in believing the gospel message that Christ died for their sins, He was buried, and risen the third day. But again: This would be in line with believing ALL of the rest of what God said and or told us to do. God told us to love others and that involves good works. God told us to be holy in conduct and that involves us doing something and not nothing. This is all a part of the faith. Your whole Bible is a part of the faith. That’s what you don’t understand. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

 

[Gospel Believer]

For the reader who is seeking the truth:

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about how you are initially saved (See: Ephesians 2:1-3).
For when we are saved by God’s grace, we did not do any major work to be saved but we trusted in the Lord to forgive us and we trusted in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15. We believe Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day. We believe he was seen by many witnesses. We believe that the grace of God can make us to labor abundantly. That’s good news!

In addition, Ephesians 2:9 talks about works you would boast in (Which would be man directed works).
Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about God directed works we are created unto Christ Jesus to do.
Boasting is excluded if it involves the law of faith (See: Romans 3:27).

Why?

Because you are not doing your own man made work but you are only doing what God told you to do by faith.
So if you are doing a good work God told you to do… boasting is excluded because you would give praise to God for any good done in your life. The LORD is not saying not to do good works in regards to salvation as a blanket ban statement. We see in Galatians 6:8-9 that if we sow to the Spirit by well doing we will reap everlasting life. We know that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So if there are not works, our faith is dead. Therefore, works are required as a part of our faith or as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

Again, when you read Paul on him speaking negatively of works and the Law… think about Acts 15.
In Acts 15 tells us about those Jews who were trying to deceive Gentile Christians to be saved by first being circumcised.
Paul himself says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing in Galatians 5:2, but then in Galatians 5:4 Paul then says if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace. So Paul is referring to the problem of those who had to be circumcised in order to be saved. But Paul was not against us living holy as a part of entering the Kingdom. Paul mentions in Galatians 5:19-21 a list of sins (fornication, adultery, murders, strife, envy, idolatry, etc.) and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So it’s not a belief alone in Jesus that will save you. If you abide in sin, or you justify some kind of sin, or if you unfruitful, you will not be saved. You see 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on a smaller level and not as a means to practice sin. You believe you must sin again a little bit because of 1 John 1:8. But that is not what 1 John 1:8 is saying. It’s a warning to the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is talking about the false belief where a person is thinking sin is an illusion or is not real. 1 John 1:9 gives us the proper way to deal with sin instead of ignoring it in one’s life (as if it was non-existent). We must confess of our sins to be forgiven of them. If you don’t confess, you will not be forgiven. This again destroys belief alone salvationism.


But here is the problem.

There is no actual verse in the Bible that says we are to only trust in Jesus Christ (a mental ascent) as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Which does not include works, not sinning, etc.). For if you are promoting that you don’t need works to be saved and you don’t need to stop sinning to be saved, then you are by default secretly promoting lawlessness under God’s grace (whether you want that or not).

Now, granted at other times, I heard you say that works and a holy life will follow a true saving faith. But you believe works do not save even though they are some kind of after effect of saving faith. This is a contradiction. If you really believed that works and holy living following a saving faith, then you would say that is a part of the salvation package or God’s plan of salvation. For even in your own rule book, a faith that does not produce some kind of works or a life of not practicing sin is not a true genuine saving faith. So you back end in works and holy living as a part of saving faith but you are embarrassed to admit the truth that this is salvation by works.

Again, the way to reconcile Paul and James on the “Law / works” issue is to understand that…

#1. Paul is talking about being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation and how we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a package deal (and not particular commands that have been repeated into the New Testament Laws of Christ - like love God and love your neighbor).

#2. James is talking about a Continued Faith lived out (after we are saved by God’s grace without works In our Initial Salvation). James is saying that if a faith does not eventually produced good fruit or works it is a dead faith. So this means that you cannot be saved if you do not do any good works as a part of your faith.


I believe Jesus is our ultimate Savior, as well. If a Christian sins, they do not do good works to absolve that sin. They go to Jesus Christ and His grace by confessing of that sin to Him in order to be forgiven of it. But some in the Belief Alone Camp see even confessing sins as a work and therefore they don’t think continual confession of sin is necessary as a part of salvation. They just believe in trusted in the finished work of the cross (Which is another Belief Alone Christian saying that is not in the Bible). A believer also continues their whole life to stand in believing the gospel message that Christ died for their sins, He was buried, and risen the third day. But again: This would be in line with believing ALL of the rest of what God said and or told us to do. God told us to love others and that involves good works. God told us to be holy in conduct and that involves us doing something and not nothing. This is all a part of the faith. Your whole Bible is a part of the faith. That’s what you don’t understand. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

For the reader who is seeking the truth:


.....or put more accurately—- This guy’s “ Version” Of The Truth......( “ Other “ Versions” might say that this guy rejects Grace and is teaching a “ False and Perverted” Gospel and He is Fallen From Grace” ,Plus, he is “ Severed from Christ” and doesn’t even understand what these descriptions mean) Sound a little Harsh? Read the Book Of Galatians ( it’s only 6 chapters!) and show me how I am wrong.....Paul said that “ there are some that have TROUBLED you “ with their Gospel Additions.....he was referring to the Confused, Error-Filled Gospel Perverters such as we see in here at times.....and, of course , that is just “ my” version of things, but I am convinced that I am correct just like he thinks that “ he” is.....Read Galatians , friends and make up your own minds.....

 

[Gospel Believer]

But, thankfully, God even delights in forgiving deliberate, known, presumptuous sin aka "iniquity" - however His mercy won't cripple His justice, and if we persist in refusing that way of escape, we only show that we lack saving faith.


Nope—— the only thing that we “ Show” is that we are in danger of being Severely Chastised......even to the point of dying a premature death.....God will not be mocked.....play games with the Grace of God that His Son Died for and you think that God is going to “ Wink” at it? Go ahead, Fool—- give it a shot.....Believers get Punished for their sins—— Relax, all you Legalists out there—— there ain’t nobody “gettin’ away” with Anything! As much as it Kills you to admit it—- “ Where Sin abounds, Grace abounds even more” .....deal with it.

 

[Gospel Believer]

They go to Jesus Christ and His grace by confessing of that sin to Him in order to be forgiven of it.

When Jesus healed the paralytic man, he forgave Him Of His Sins first.....did Jesus ask the guy to admit and repent of all of his known sins before he forgave him?

Under Law, one had to forgive to be forgiven.....under Grace, we are ALREADY Forgiven.....”Having been Forgiven all of your Sins” .....Your Sins are Paid for and even Forgotten before you even ask....thank God for His Grace....

 

[mailmandan]

For the reader who is seeking the truth:

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about how you are initially saved (See: Ephesians 2:1-3).
For when we are saved by God’s grace, we did not do any major work to be saved but we trusted in the Lord to forgive us and we trusted in the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15. We believe Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day. We believe he was seen by many witnesses. We believe that the grace of God can make us to labor abundantly. That’s good news!

We are initially and ultimately saved by faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Peter 1:9) Salvation is neither obtained or maintained by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day to provide for us eternal life. We not only believe that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" but we trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. That is the gospel that saves (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and it truly is good news!

In addition, Ephesians 2:9 talks about works you would boast in (Which would be man directed works).

Which includes works of righteousness (Titus 3:5 - literally of works which are done in righteousness) which fully refutes the doctrine of meritorious works in general, which is not merely limited to man directed works or specific works of the law.

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about God directed works we are created unto Christ Jesus to do.
Boasting is excluded if it involves the law of faith (See: Romans 3:27).

Boasting is excluded of good works as well. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Your false teaching of saved by "these" works and just not "those" works lines up with Roman Catholic doctrine.

Why?

Because you are not doing your own man made work but you are only doing what God told you to do by faith.
So if you are doing a good work God told you to do… boasting is excluded because you would give praise to God for any good done in your life. The LORD is not saying not to do good works in regards to salvation as a blanket ban statement. We see in Galatians 6:8-9 that if we sow to the Spirit by well doing we will reap everlasting life. We know that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). So if there are not works, our faith is dead. Therefore, works are required as a part of our faith or as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

Exactly what Roman Catholics teach and you still don't see the red flag. If accomplishing good works that God told us to do after we have been saved through faith were the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life which would give us something to boast about. Period.

Galatians 6:8-9 is not teaching salvation by works. There is no end to your eisegesis which finds it's foundation in 'type 2 works salvation.' The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Faith without works is dead does not mean that dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith or that works are a part of faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

Again, when you read Paul on him speaking negatively of works and the Law… think about Acts 15.
In Acts 15 tells us about those Jews who were trying to deceive Gentile Christians to be saved by first being circumcised.
Paul himself says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing in Galatians 5:2, but then in Galatians 5:4 Paul then says if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace. So Paul is referring to the problem of those who had to be circumcised in order to be saved.

Obviously, circumcision for salvation was a problem with these Jews, yet the law of Moses is not merely limited to circumcision.

But Paul was not against us living holy as a part of entering the Kingdom.

Paul was against salvation by works IN GENERAL (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) which includes our best efforts to live holy as the basis or means of obtaining salvation. So this is what motivates to live holy? God will save you based on the merits of holy living/works done in righteousness? I knew it! Let the boasting in SELF begin!

Paul mentions in Galatians 5:19-21 a list of sins (fornication, adultery, murders, strife, envy, idolatry, etc.) and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Yes, those who practice such sins (which is descriptive of unbelievers) will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 we see Paul mentioning a similar list of sins and describes such people as the unrighteous in verse 9. In verse 11, speaking of the righteous, Paul goes on to say, And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Children of God practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10)

So it’s not a belief alone in Jesus that will save you.

Yes it is. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5,6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). The right kind of belief.

If you abide in sin, or you justify some kind of sin, or if you unfruitful, you will not be saved.

Although genuine believers are not sinless 100% of the time (1 John 1:8-10) they do not abide in sin or justify sin and all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Your argument here clearly demonstrates what you are trusting in for salvation and it's NOT CHRIST ALONE. You are trusting in your best efforts to abstain from sin and in works for salvation. SELF.

You see 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on a smaller level and not as a means to practice sin. You believe you must sin again a little bit because of 1 John 1:8. But that is not what 1 John 1:8 is saying. It’s a warning to the brethren about those who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is talking about the false belief where a person is thinking sin is an illusion or is not real. 1 John 1:9 gives us the proper way to deal with sin instead of ignoring it in one’s life (as if it was non-existent). We must confess of our sins to be forgiven of them. If you don’t confess, you will not be forgiven.

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10).

Certain people misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin we are toast!"

Believers confess speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

This again destroys belief alone salvationism.

Your eisegesis destroys nothing and belief (rightly understood) in Christ alone still stands. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5,6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

But here is the problem.

Your eisegesis is the problem.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

There is no actual verse in the Bible that says we are to only trust in Jesus Christ (a mental ascent) as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Which does not include works, not sinning, etc.). For if you are promoting that you don’t need works to be saved and you don’t need to stop sinning to be saved, then you are by default secretly promoting lawlessness under God’s grace (whether you want that or not).

Trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation goes beyond mental assent and is done with the heart and not merely with our head. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). Producing works and not practicing sin is the fruit of repentance/faith, but not the means of our salvation. That is not lawlessness and it's either 'flawless or lawless' with you. Again, you demonstrate that you are believing in/trusting in works and abstaining from all sin as the basis or means of your salvation which also demonstrates that you are not trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation. SELF righteousness.

Now, granted at other times, I heard you say that works and a holy life will follow a true saving faith. But you believe works do not save even though they are some kind of after effect of saving faith. This is a contradiction.

No contradiction at all. Faith is the root of salvation and works and holy living which follow is the fruit.

If you really believed that works and holy living following a saving faith, then you would say that is a part of the salvation package or God’s plan of salvation. For even in your own rule book, a faith that does not produce some kind of works or a life of not practicing sin is not a true genuine saving faith. So you back end in works and holy living as a part of saving faith but you are embarrassed to admit the truth that this is salvation by works.

This is where it takes spiritual discernment to understand. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) Works-salvationists typically wrap up both faith and works in a package and simply stamp faith on the package. You clearly teach salvation by faith AND WORKS just as Roman Catholics do.

Again, the way to reconcile Paul and James on the “Law / works” issue is to understand that…

#1. Paul is talking about being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation and how we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a package deal (and not particular commands that have been repeated into the New Testament Laws of Christ - like love God and love your neighbor).

#2. James is talking about a Continued Faith lived out (after we are saved by God’s grace without works In our Initial Salvation). James is saying that if a faith does not eventually produced good fruit or works it is a dead faith. So this means that you cannot be saved if you do not do any good works as a part of your faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). I can't make it any clearer than that.

I believe Jesus is our ultimate Savior, as well.

No you don't. You also trust in works and abstaining from all sin as the means of your salvation.

If a Christian sins, they do not do good works to absolve that sin. They go to Jesus Christ and His grace by confessing of that sin to Him in order to be forgiven of it. But some in the Belief Alone Camp see even confessing sins as a work and therefore they don’t think continual confession of sin is necessary as a part of salvation.

So salvation to you is a continuous revolving door of saved (commit a sin and lose salvation) confess and get saved all over again and if you forget a sin you are toast! That turns confession into a work for salvation. How many people keep a specific inventory of every sin they have ever committed or will commit and confess each one? Again, Christians confess speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

They just believe in trusted in the finished work of the cross (Which is another Belief Alone Christian saying that is not in the Bible).

You obviously don't trust in the finished work of Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of your salvation which means that you don't believe the gospel. You believe in works/cessation of sin/exhaustive inventory confession as the means of your salvation. That is your gospel of works righteousness at the back door.

A believer also continues their whole life to stand in believing the gospel message that Christ died for their sins, He was buried, and risen the third day.

Yes, saving belief/faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces not fruit and withers away.

But again: This would be in line with believing ALL of the rest of what God said and or told us to do. God told us to love others and that involves good works. God told us to be holy in conduct and that involves us doing something and not nothing. This is all a part of the faith. Your whole Bible is a part of the faith. That’s what you don’t understand. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Oh I understand perfectly! Your error here is the same error that I made prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church. You basically define faith 'as' works. Faith is faith and works are works, yet you 'infuse' it all into one package and simply stamp faith on the package. To be saved by faith according to you is also to be saved by works. You basically make no distinction. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Acts of obedience, love for others which 'follows' is WORKS. That's what you don't understand. Your argument here reminds me of a similar argument that I heard from a Roman Catholic.

At first, this Roman Catholic denied that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works, then he contradicted himself with this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments.. etc..

His argument about faith being “defined as” and INCLUDES these works above equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. We are saved through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

This may be your turning point Bible Highlighter! This was my turning point several years ago when I came to understand this error which kept me from trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and is keeping you from trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Now I know that I believe and I know that I have eternal life. (1 John 5:13) Praise God! :)

Will this be your turning point Bible Highlighter? I hope and pray that it is.

 

[mailmandan]

James says, “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).
Jesus says, “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” (Matthew 12:33).

It’s like the sheep and the goats. One is a sheep or a goat based on what they did or did not do in Matthew 25:31-46.
The key is one listening to the devil or God. If we abide in the Lord we will do good things. If we abide in Satan, we will sin and justify evil things. It’s just that simple.

You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. A good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.

Sheep do not go bah bah in order to become sheep, but BECAUSE they are sheep. Likewise, believers do not produce good works in order to become sheep, but BECAUSE they are sheep. Based on what one does confirms whether or not they ARE a sheep or a goat. It's just that simple. You have this backwards.

 

[Taken]

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?​

OP^

To “BE” saved?

Hearing Gods Word, is HOW a man BEGINS receiving measures of Gods Gift of FAITH.

Believing Gods Word, is CALLED a mans “WORKS”, and HOW a man CONTINUES receiving INCREASE measures of Gods Gift of FAITH.

A man Heartfully CONFESSING he “heartfully BELIEVES” Gods Word...
A man Heartfully CONFESSING “repentance” for having NOT BELIEVED”...
...is the “WAY...METHOD...ACT” of “REASONABLE SERVICE of a man”....
...FOR that individual to “establish” an Exclusive ONCE and FOREVER one on one relationship between that one man and the Lord God Almighty.

...TWO COMMANDS thereafter are exclusively REQUIRED...
1) Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
2) Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Matt 22: 35-40)

WHAT man can ACCOMPLISH “those TWO exclusively Required Commands”?

* ALWAYS ACCOMPLISH those commands?...A Converted man, IN Christ and the Spirit of God (Christ) IN the man.
(Always effected BY the POWER of God IN the man.)

* SOMETIMES ACCOMPLISH those commands?...A Believing man, WITH Christ and the Spirit of God (Christ) WITH the man.
(Only effected BY the POWER of God...WHEN WITH the man.)

A believing man CONTROLS his own POWER. He can follow, believe, obey...and God will BE WITH that man. The same man can vacillate, not follow, not believe, not obey....and God will NOT BE WITH that man.
(OT historical scriptural content reveals numerous times, men believing, following, obeying and Gods Power WITH THEM....and men not believing, following, obeying and Gods Power WITHOUT (leaving) THEM.)

A converted man HAS acknowledged the Lord God Himself is ALL-Knowing, ALL-Powerful and such man has acquiesced his own weak self exclusively to Soliciting, Believing, Trusting, Accepting the Lord Gods Offering FOR the POWER of the Lord God to enter “IN” that man and “KEEP” that man “FOREVER WITH the Lord God and the Lord God FOREVER WITH that man”.

* Point being...a converted mans SERVICE of obeying Gods TWO Required Commands ARE Always Accomplished BY, THROUGH, OF the POWER of God IN a converted man.
(acknowledgement and credit of a converted mans Service unto God, is unto Gods Power)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Gospel Believer]

At first, this Roman Catholic denied that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works, then he contradicted himself with this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES:Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments.. etc..




I missed all of this somehow.....I never suspected he was this far gone.....
He definitely adds to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace and he is in more jeopardy than he realizes....He ( and anybody else that holds to catholic doctrine) is “ Fallen from grace “ and “ Severed from Christ” —- all one has to do to verify these terrible things is to read Galatians .....

Do these things equate to Damnation as some claim or do these poor, confused “ believers” just live out a beggarly, crummy walk of Faith ? Full of fear and lack of assurance .....

It beats me. I can see the merits of Both sides in the cases that are made—-Anybody want to comment about this?

 

[Taken]

You continue to put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by works. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. A good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.

Sheep do not go bah bah in order to become sheep, but BECAUSE they are a sheep. Likewise, believers do not produce good works in order to become sheep, but BECAUSE they are sheep. Based on what one does confirms whether or not they ARE a sheep or a goat. It's just that simple. You have this backwards.

Salvation BY “WORKS” is a “CONVOLUTED” Teaching...BECAUSE it is “TWISTED” out of “CONTEXT”.


The WORKS of a man “regarding” SALVATION....IS the mans “BELIEF”.
IN context....the “WORKS” of a man....IS “True Heartful BELIEF.”
IN context....”SALVATION”....IS “GIVEN”:
....1) WHEN a mans “SERVICE” is accomplished.
....2) “SERVICE” is accomplished ‘WHEN’ the man “IS Freely Willing to LAY DOWN his bodily LIfe” FOR the Lord God, FOR the mans “TRUE Heartful CONFESSION of BELIEF .

THAT ^^ is MADE possible BY, Through, Of.... Gods OFFERING.
THAT ^^ is MADE possible By, Through, Of.... TWO methods.

*A man WHO heartfully Believes on the Day and moment of his Physical Bodily Death.........HE SHALL “THEN” Be SAVED.

*A man WHO heartfully Believes AND HEARTFULLY CONFESSES his TRUE BELIEF with HIS WORD.......HE SHALL “THEN” Be SAVED....Before His Physical Bodily Death.

* The MANIFESTATION of a mans SALVATION “IS KNOWN, BUT NOT OBSERVED (seen) with mortal mens EYES.”

* in other words....THE ACTUAL VISUAL (seen by man) EFFECT of a mans SOUL becoming SAVED, ALWAYS OCCURS AFTER a physical Bodily Death.

* THAT’s the MYSTERY...
* MEN wait to SEE....However what God Proclaims IS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED, whether or not a mortal man can SEE it.

* Regardless....Every man Believing on the day of his Mortal physical death....IF he heartfully Believes.....GOD HIMSELF searches every Heart, IF that mans Belief BE TRUE....His soul SHALL BE SAVED on the day that man physically Dies.

* Every Believing and Heartfully Confessing man....(Before his mortal physical death) AS WELL....God Searches his Heart, IF that mans Belief BE TRUE....IF IT IS....His soul IS “SANCTIFIED” THEN....set apart, sealed unto God, and CLAIMED (redeemed) BY God on the day that mans physically body dies, and his Living soul Departs his dying body, and returns to God (who gave that soul to that body).

* ABSOLUTELY there are “OTHER WORKS”, a Believing man WITH God..A Converted man IN Christ....”CAN DO”....
“BEYOND the “WORKS” of BELIEF”.

* A man can Preach, Teach Gods Word, a man can help, lend a hand to other men....THESE such WORKS, THAT WHICH the “helper, teacher, etc. GIVE their “preaching, teaching, charity ABILITY “CREDIT” TO THE Lord God..................
*** SHALL BE “REWARDED BY God FOR THEIR WORKS THAT HAVE GLORIFIED God.

*** THOSE WORKS have NOTHING TO DO WITH .... Receiving or Keeping a mans Salvation.

*** Men routinely Convolute, Misconstrue, Misteach... A mans WORKS regarding “Receiving Gods Gift of Salvation” with a mans WORKS regarding “Receiving Gods Rewards for Glorifying God”.