Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[Pearl]

You cannot ignore other verses at the expense of other ones. What do you make of 1 John 1:7? It also talks about being cleansed by the blood, too.

You carry on believing you are doomed if you want, but I'm not falling for it so I'm using my 'ignore' option.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am accepted by God because I am clean and free from sin. But as Jesus told Peter in John 12:10 Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean.

Did Jesus wrap up the sermon on the Mount by saying that all we have to do is believe in Jesus and not to worry about sin or just trust in the blood of Jesus? That’s not the impression I get by His sermon. Jesus was not leading up to saying something like…. “Look it’s not about really forgiving others, it’s about trusting in my finished work to be saved. I merely said those things to get you to see that you cannot keep my Laws.”

This is what you want Jesus to have said, but He did not say anything like this.

Even in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus did not correct the lawyer and tell him to just believe on the finished work of the cross.

 

[Pearl]

Did Jesus wrap up the sermon on the Mount by saying that all we have to do is believe in Jesus and not to worry about sin or just trust in the blood of Jesus? That’s not the impression I get by His sermon. Jesus was not leading up to saying something like…. “Look it’s not about really forgiving others, it’s about trusting in my finished work to be saved. I merely said those things to get you to see that you cannot keep my Laws.”

This is what you want Jesus to have said, but He did not say anything like this.

Even in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus did not correct the lawyer and tell him to just believe on the finished work of the cross.

No comment!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You carry on believing you are doomed if you want, but I'm not falling for it so I'm using my 'ignore' option.

Nowhere did I ever said I believe I am doomed. That is your false accusation.
Anyways, while I love you in Jesus, I can see now you simply are not wanting to deal with what Scripture says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No comment!

I don’t understand why you don’t want to explain Scripture here.
If you are on the side of the truth, surely you should be able to at some point get back to me and explain it with the Word of God.
There is no rush on explaining the truth of God’s Word.
But if you simply don’t want to comment, that is your choice (of course).
It is just odd to me why you would not want to do so.

In any event, may God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the Jesus (described below) that most here don’t know about.

Luke 19:27 (NKJV).

“But bring here those enemies of mine,
who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’”​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So if we don’t let Jesus reign over us, we will be slain.

Jesus says,

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46).​

 

[mailmandan]

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense).

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10). Certain people like you misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we must confess each sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) as an additional requirement to remain cleansed and if we forget a sin we are toast! Genuine believers speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over - Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. We do not flawlessly obey God's commandments 100% of the time. We are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time, but in the eyes of God, believers are seen in the eyes of God as righteous and flawless because we are clothes in the righteousness of Christ. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4.

OSAS works just fine, but sinless perfection does not work.

You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

Only Jesus Christ has flawlessly obeyed all of God's commandments and is without sin. You are taking a legalistic approach to 1 John 2:3-4 and neither 1 John 1:8 or 1 John 2:3 teach that we are flawless 100% of the time or breaking God's commandments/sinning 24/7 either.

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them.

More eisegesis.

This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus.

You don't seem to have much faith in the blood of Christ to wash away your sins. Sinless perfection has replaced the blood of Christ in your self righteous plan of salvation. Daydreamer hit the nail on the head in post #252 and Pearl hit the nail on the head in post #255. You have some soul searching to do.

They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

You are not fooling me with your crafty eisegesis.

In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

If we say we have no sin - literally “sin we do not have" (refusing to admit we are sinners) in the present tense, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. John is talking directly to you. This does not mean that we are sinning 24/7 in the present tense either, so put away the straw man card.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense because, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10). Verse 9 does not mean that we must confess each sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) as an additional requirement to remain cleansed and if we forget a sin we are toast, as you teach. That would turn confession into a work for salvation in your legalistic plan of salvation. Again, genuine believers speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

What bondage you must live in! Your arguments bring back painful memories for me while still under bondage in the Roman Catholic church prior to my conversion. 1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. How could you possibly have any assurance of salvation whatsoever?

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus said, “sin no more” with two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
You obviously don't believe Him like you do His other words.

I believe Jesus and I've seen people abuse and misuse the words of Jesus here in John 5:14 and John 8:11 to demand sinless perfection, yet none of us meet that standard and Jesus cannot compromise his perfect, holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit." In John 8:11, Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery.

What is confessing sins all about? Is about you? Or is it about God and His grace?

So we are saved by grace through faith plus confession each and every sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) and if we forget a sin we are toast? I guess Paul forgot to mention that in Ephesians 2:8,9. Apparently you have no sins to confess because you are under the delusion that you are sinless 100% of the time.

When people seek forgiveness with another person even, do they boast about how they did that with other people as if it was a work?
Surely not. The Bible tells you to confess your sins (i.e. confess your sins to Jesus) in order to be forgiven of them (See: 1 John 1:9) (cf. 1 John 2:1). So it’s not about me or my telling you what to do, but it simply is what God’s Holy Word is telling you to do. Forgiveness of sins is tied to salvation in the Bible (When it relates to God). For we never see anywhere in the Bible whereby God forgives a person’s sins and it is not dealing with their salvation.

Genuine believers do confess their sins. Just not as a legalistic formula for maintaining their salvation, as you teach.

As for holy living:

God’s Word says,

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:”
(Hebrews 12:14).​

And this:

“See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God, and that no root of bitterness springs up to cause trouble and defile many.” (Hebrews 12:15) (Berean Standard Bible).​

So following after peace with all men, and following after holiness we will….

(a) See the Lord (without which we will not see the Lord if we are not following after peace with all men and we are not following after holiness).

(b) Be led to tell other believers to not fall short of the grace of God (by answering the call of the gospel - which is God having chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and or by allowing God’s grace to teach us to deny ungodliness - Titus 2:11-12). For Hebrews 12:14 appears to be connected with Hebrews 12:15 in that it says we are to tell other believers to Follow after holiness and follow after peace with all men and if they fall short, they will not see the Lord and they will fall short of the grace of God, whereby a root of bitterness will come in and it will defile many.​

I already thoroughly explained these passages of scripture to you in a previous post. Do you even bother to read what I post or are you too busy listening to yourself talk? I often hear those who view themselves as "holier than thou" (YOU) cite Hebrews 12:14 to teach that if you are not "holy enough" (practically speaking) "in addition" to placing your faith in Christ for salvation then you will not see the Lord/will not be saved. In Hebrews 12:14 the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

In regards to Hebrews 12:15, some people read it from the KJV "fail of the grace of God" and assume that such a person was saved and lost their salvation, yet other translations clear up this confusion. The NIV says, "falls short of the grace of God." The NASB says, "comes short of the grace of God" and the ESV says, "fails to obtain the grace of God." Never saved.

No, you don’t believe the words of Jesus because whenever I bring up verses about how Jesus warns about how sin can destroy our souls in the afterlife (like Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15) you simply do not believe them.

I believe Jesus. I just don't believe your eisegesis. Jesus is not addressing the Church, the body of Christ after His resurrection here warning believers that if they ever sin again at all they will lose their salvation. Jesus is putting things into perspective here to His Jewish audience in regards to the law (Matthew 5:17-20) and expanding on it. You are always so busy bringing up the bad news about sin and doom and gloom and obsessing over sinless perfection that you don't even bother to bring up the good news about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) You remind me of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

 

[mailmandan]

That is not a Scripture verse or passage that explains what you said. In fact, your words here do not explain away the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, etcetera.

You need to learn to read scripture in context and understand who the audience is here. Your eisegesis has reached the point of nauseam.

We will be judged by the words of Jesus on the last day if we do not receive them (John 12:48).

John 12:48 (NKJV)

“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.​

Seeing you reject the words of Jesus (in the fact that you don’t believe Jesus’ words about how sin can destroy our souls in the after life), and if you continue to do so (and if you don’t repent of that)…. Those words by our Lord Jesus will indeed judge you on the last day (Whether you want that to happen or not). Sorry. I love you in Jesus, but that’s the cold hard fact or reality, my friend. No Christian should reject the words of Jesus.

I don't reject the words of Jesus. I just reject your eisegesis. You are not my judge and I really don't appreciate your slander or your legalism. I don't see one ounce of love in your posts, only judgment and condemnation. Talk is cheap. You need to be more concerned for yourself. It's time for you to repent and believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Works salvation is no salvation at all. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Jesus was not focused on addressing primarily unbelievers in Matthew 5, Matthew 6, and Matthew 7. His goal was to get people to believe and be believers.

Who was Jesus addressing here and don't overlook Matthew 5:17-20. Jesus explained what establishes a believer in John 3:14-18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26 and how we receive eternal life and it's not through sinless perfection. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

For example: If Jesus was talking about unbelievers in Matthew 6:15, then it would be pointless because if they (being an unbeliever) would have forgiven everyone in the whole world and yet if they did not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior (being an unbeliever), then they are still doomed and on their way to hell. So Jesus is not talking to unbelievers in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, etcetera. Jesus is talking to believers here.

You really believe that everyone in this large audience was a genuine believer? How naive can you be? In regards to Matthew 6:15, a Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that we have been forgiven by God. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts, which reveals the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and have received God’s grace forgive others from a heart that is saved, but vengeful hearts that are unforgiving reveal a heart that is unsaved. Those who are unforgiving from the heart (descriptive of unbelievers) show they are unfit to receive God’s ultimate forgiveness.

 

[mailmandan]

King David was saved before he committed his sins of adultery and murder. But when he sinned, he lost his salvation and needed to have forgiveness of God to be restored back to the LORD.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

More eisegesis and bias. Show me the specific words, "lost his salvation." According to your legalistic salvation formula, anyone who falls short of exhaustive inventory confession and/or sinless perfection is going to hell. You are not the judge of David or the judge of the universe. You really need to repent and come down from your high horse and believe the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus said, the people who were guilty of hypocrisy, by demanding of others what they did not demand of themself(using the random letter of the then scriptures to do it) were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean on the inside. I tend to think the two go hand in hand

You nailed it!

 

[mailmandan]

I totally agree and the words pearls and swine come to mind.

I am accepted by God because I am clean and free from sin. But as Jesus told Peter in John 12:10 Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean.

Amen Pearl!

 

[mailmandan]

To be continually washed in the blood you have to also walk in the light as He is in the light. This is in 1 John 1:7, and it’s conditional because it has the IF word in there.

More eisegesis which is no surprise. 1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. Walking in the light is 'descriptive' of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. *It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness, hates his brother" is connected with "children of the devil."

 

[mailmandan]

I hope you don't mind me saying this. But bible highlighter clearly does not even try and practice what he preaches/demands of others. And I don't think its going to matter what anyone says to him, I don't believe he has any intention of changing. Im not even sure if its biblical to keep chatting to him (from my point of view) It just gives him oxygen to carry on as he does. Jesus did tell us to beware of the yeast of the pharisees, which is hypocrisy. They too endlessly quoted the random letter and demanded of others what they did not demand of themselves. Nothing has changed sadly in 2000 years

So it's not just me. ;) Well said! The truth hurts, but bible highlighter really needs to hear it and we may just be wasting our time beating a dead horse by continuing to chat with him, but there are others who may have ears to hear and may also benefit from these discussions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Notice that - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10). Certain people like you misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we must confess each sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) as an additional requirement to remain cleansed and if we forget a sin we are toast! Genuine believers speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness.

I am only going to address the error of your beginning of your post here because my time is valuable and I have other things I need to do that are more important in regards to the things of God (with those who are open to the Word of God).

As I already demonstrated before, 1 John 1:8 is in context to the gnostic belief that denies sin’s existence as per 1 John 1:10. We both believe 1 John 1:10 because we both believe we have sinned in the past. But your gnostic does not believe that because they deny the existence of sin and will say they have never sinned (past tense). Therefore, 1 John 1:8 is a person denying sin’s existence in the present tense. Again, it is still a gnostic belief that is being told to the brethren as a warning to them against these false beliefs (1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:9 is the proper way to deal with sin. But you don’t believe 1 John 1:9 because you don’t actually believe 1 John 1:9 in that it says we must confess of sins to be forgiven of sins. Why? Well, you believe all future sin is forgiven you by a belief alone in Jesus or in believing the imaginary Protestant saying that all you have to do is believe on the finished work of the cross and your good to enter the Kingdom.

This is why many in your camp deny 1 John 1:9 and or seek to say that it is falsely referring to Initial Salvation when it is not talking about that.
But we are done here. I see no benefit of continue to keep going back and forth with you on this topic. What I said here was enough to convince any person who upholds the Word of God in what it plainly says (vs. your approach in changing the Bible when it does not agree with you at times, i.e. like the time when you said “By faith…” in Hebrews 11:7 should be “Out of faith…” when no translation or dictionary defends you. You are just mindlessly repeating what you have been taught by Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists and you are not really getting in the Bible Alone and believing it in what it says alone at face value.

You falsely accused me also several times, as well (and no apologies were given, either).

So I think it is best to move on and we can agree to disagree in love and respect.

May the Lord’s good ways shine upon you.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Bible Highlighter.

 

[mailmandan]

I am only going to address the error of your beginning of your post here because my time is valuable and I have other things I need to do that are more important in regards to the things of God (with those who are open to the Word of God).

You need to spend your valuable time seriously considering the truth which I shared with you in multiple posts.

As I already demonstrated before, 1 John 1:8 is in context to the gnostic belief that denies sin’s existence as per 1 John 1:10. We both believe 1 John 1:10 because we both believe we have sinned in the past.

Apparently you believe that you have sinned in the past but no longer sin at all in the present. If you claim that you have no sin (present tense) 1 John 1:8 describes you.

But your gnostic does not believe that because they deny the existence of sin and will say they have never sinned (past tense). Therefore, 1 John 1:8 is a person denying sin’s existence in the present tense. Again, it is still a gnostic belief that is being told to the brethren as a warning to them against these false beliefs (1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:9 is the proper way to deal with sin.

Confessing our sins (1 John 1:9) is in CONTRAST to saying we have no sin (present tense vs. 8) and that we have not sinned (past tense vs. 9). So gnostic belief or not, that is what John is CONTRASTING. Sinless perfection is a false belief. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

But you don’t believe 1 John 1:9 because you don’t actually believe 1 John 1:9 in that it says we must confess of sins to be forgiven of sins. Why? Well, you believe all future sin is forgiven you by a belief alone in Jesus or in believing the imaginary Protestant saying that all you have to do is believe on the finished work of the cross and your good to enter the Kingdom.

I believe 1 John 1:9. Just not your legalistic, exhaustive inventory of confessing each and every sin that we have ever committed and if we forget a sin we are toast! Genuine believers speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness. That's the opposite of saying we have no sin and that we have not sinned.

What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? So the object of our belief (Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption is not enough to save us?) Is that what you really believe? The apostle Paul clearly stated in Acts 16:31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.." but you seem to mock the words of Paul and refuse to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and instead, believe on yourself. So instead of trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, you turn to supplements/self performance/personal holiness/works for salvation. You are on very thin ice here and you don't even realize it!

This is why many in your camp deny 1 John 1:9 and or seek to say that it is falsely referring to Initial Salvation when it is not talking about that.

We will not be saved if we don't confess/acknowledge/agree with God that we are sinners in need of a Savior. If we don't agree that we have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, (Romans 3:23; 6:23) we will not place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, but instead will remain under the delusion that the blood of Christ merely removes past sins and future sins being removed depends upon our performance/self righteousness/sinless perfection. In Acts 13:39, we read - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from ALL things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

But we are done here. I see no benefit of continue to keep going back and forth with you on this topic. What I said here was enough to convince any person who upholds the Word of God in what it plainly says (vs. your approach in changing the Bible when it does not agree with you at times, i.e. like the time when you said “By faith…” in Hebrews 11:7 should be “Out of faith…” when no translation or dictionary defends you.

I already showed you that "By faith" is the same as saying "out of faith." In the WordHippo Thesaurus, I shared with you that synonyms of BY are "a consequence of, as a result of, by reason of, caused by, on account of," and YES even "OUT OF" but apparently, you ignored it. Did not fit your narrative.

Look under: Preposition
As a result of

Preposition
through

after

given

granted

with

in consequence of
as a consequence of

as a result

as a result of

attributable to
because of

by dint of

by reason

by reason of

by virtue of
caused by

down to

due to

following

for the sake of

in the wake of
on account of

on grounds of

on the basis of

on the grounds of
on the strength of

out of

owing to

thanks to

by means of

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/by.html

In post #157 you said works done "out of" love. Why didn't you say "by" love since you are so against "out of"?

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

In post #228 you falsely accused me of promoting Ray Comfort of Living Waters (who you said clearly teaches turning God's grace into a license to sin like I believe) (here is the post) AND YOU HAVE THE WRONG PERSON! You are so determined to indict me on promoting a license to sin that you will resort to anything, even deception and slander if necessary. You obviously despise Protestantism and you paint Protestants with a broad brush of promoting a license for immorality in post #153 through your biased interpretation of Jude 1:4 which was a harsh, judgment call that was well above your pay grade.

You are just mindlessly repeating what you have been taught by Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists and you are not really getting in the Bible Alone and believing it in what it says alone at face value.

Oh the irony. It's you who just mindlessly repeats your biased narrative and refuses to read scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. You like to simply isolate pet verses, build doctrine on them and ignore the rest. That's called flawed hermeneutics.

You falsely accused me also several times, as well (and no apologies were given, either).

Falsely accused you of what? You promote false teachings and I make no apologies for exposing them. No apologies were given to me when you falsely accused me of promoting Ray Comfort of Living Waters (who you said clearly teaches turning God's grace into a license to sin like I believe) and that's false! I don't teach a license to sin. You did not even have the right person from that website who promotes Ray Comfort! That was a different Mailman Dan from 2005. I was not even a member of that site in 2005.

So I think it is best to move on and we can agree to disagree in love and respect.

I don't consider false accusations and slander as love and respect, but anyway, we certainly disagree on some very critical doctrines.

May the Lord’s good ways shine upon you.

I pray that the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, will shine upon you. (2 Corinthians 4:4) :)

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

That was loving kindness? Okay then. May we all seek to be more loving and kind.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@mailmandan

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...​

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.
​

Source:
Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).
​

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.


#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).
​

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).​

(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
​

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).
​

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.


#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have its service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).
​

Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.


#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).
​

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).


#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).
​

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.


​

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).