Mungo,
We agree then that we are unlikely to be 100% perfect and holy upon death.
I don’t see the difference. We want to be holy to please God because we love him.
We want to get into heaven to be with God because we love him.
Loving and pleasing God is the way the heaven. I don’t see the need to set up some sort of false dichotomy
There is no 'unlikely' about it.
Everyone sins.
Everyone falls short of the glory of God. There are two types of true Christians, those that admit that they still sin and struggle with their sin nature, and those that have deceived themselves into thinking that they are more righteous than most of the others. They feel good about themselves, and almost break their arm trying to pat themselves on their back. They see their righteousness as something that makes them better than everyone else. And some go as far as to believe that THEY are responsible for maintaining their salvation, and their standing before a Holy and Pure God.
In short, they suffer from the same prideful self-righteousness that plagued the Pharisees in the bible.
Look at how Jesus dealt with the Pharisees. Did he compliment them on how closely they followed the Law? I am sure that the Pharisees thought that they were more righteous in God's eyes than most of the people in the city. And to be honest, most of them were revered by men for their strict observance of the Law. Now was following the law a bad thing? Absolutely not! The Law was the Holy Command of God. But the Pharisees mistake was that in their observance of the Law, they failed to learn what the Law was suppose to teach us, which is quite simply, that no matter how hard we try, we are unable to measure up to God's standard of perfection. Which is why we needed a savior. The Law was suppose to teach us that we have no inherent righteousness in and of ourselves.
God is the God of truth not lies. God does not pretend. God can make me truly righteous.
It was Martin Luther’s false idea that we are like a pile of dung, as it were covered in snow so that we looked clean. But God sees into our hearts. He sees us as we are.
Rev 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean may enter heaven. A pile of dung covered in snow is still a pile of dung.
Jesus said “
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (
Mt 5:48), not you can be imperfect but my Father will pretend you are OK.
but as he who called you is holy,
be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (
1Pet 1:15-16)
We are to be holy in all our conduct, not God pretending we are holy.
You are absolutely right! God does not pretend. I never said he did. God not only can make me truly righteous, but He will make me truly righteous. This is when we are glorified and receive our glorified bodies, and our new spiritual natures. This is when we will be totally and truly free of our sin nature. This happens at the rapture. And since God sees the end from the beginning, God sees us in our Glorified state. Yes, he knows we have sinned, he knows that some of us are sinning right now, and if he doesn't call us home we will sin again. But this sin has been paid for on the cross, and therefore as far as our salvation is concerned, it is not held against us once we come under the covering of His Blood. Now, it can and will affect our rewards. And our sin can cause us to suffer eternal loss but we will still be saved.
1 Cor 3:15.
Do you mean God punished Jesus instead of us?
Is God’s Justice to punish the innocent?
If Jesus was punished for every sin then everyone will go to heaven automatically because its all been paid for.
That doesn’t sound right to me.
Yes, God punished Jesus instead of us. Have you never read,
Isaiah 53:5 But
he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that
we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Now does everyone go to Heaven automatically? No, because again, not everyone has placed themselves under the blood of Christ. Jesus can only save those who have accepted His authority in their life. Everyone doesn't get an automatic free pass, but everyone who truly gives their life to Christ, who places themselves under His authority, is covered by his blood, and God seals his Holy Spirit as a promise to bring this person to the Day of Redemption, and fulfill the promise of Salvation by giving them a new nature, a spiritual nature that replaces the sin nature that we have now. And we become what God foreknew us to be... perfect and totally righteous.
Let me say this again, because it bear repeating... Jesus can not be your Savior unless he is first your Lord. You accepting his authority in your life is what allows his Blood to cover you. It is being a member of a church, It is not being dunked in some water. It is not walking down an aisle in church, shaking a preacher's hand, and repeating a prayer. There are alot of people who have done this, and think that they are saved, but they have never accepted His authority over them. They go to church on Sunday, and then live like the devil the rest of the week, get drunk on Saturday night, and then show up in church Sunday morning with a hangover, and think that they saved.
Peter, Paul, and others encourage us to live holy lives because the closer we draw to God, the nearer he draws to us. Sin can harm us, it can harm our testimony, destroy our witness, and rob us of not only a victorious life here on earth, but of eternal rewards when we stand before Jesus to give an accounting for our life.
Consider this parable....
Luke 18:9-14 9 Jesus told a story to some people who were sure they were right with God. They looked down on everybody else. 10 He said to them, “Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee. The other was a tax collector.
11 “The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself. ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people,’ he said. ‘I am not like robbers or those who do other evil things. I am not like those who commit adultery. I am not even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week. And I give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood not very far away. He would not even look up to heaven. He beat his chest and said, ‘God, have mercy on me. I am a sinner.’
14 “I tell you, the tax collector went home accepted by God. But not the Pharisee. Everyone who lifts himself up will be brought down. And anyone who is brought down will be lifted up.”
As to the Tribulation I don’t really care. I’ve never understood this obsession by some with end-times, and Tribulations. I very rarely look into end-time forums.
I’m beginning to wish I hadn’t bothered this time.
I'm sorry to hear that... I am not trying to start an argument. I love talking about the bible, be it about end-times, salvation, or whatever. Personally I study the endtimes because Jesus expected the Jews to know the season of his first coming, and because they didn't they suffered greatly... I don't know if he feels the same about us knowing the season of his second coming, but I want to be ready just in case. :)
But seriously, studying the endtimes is what got me back into church, and it is a passion of mine.
Joshua David
