Dispensationalism

[Naomi25]

1. First of all, numbers in the Bible do have spiritual significance. And the number 7 stands for divine perfection (or if you wish completion). For example "the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth". In fact there are books in print that show us how and why a host of numbers symbolize spiritual things.

2. That however, does NOT automatically mean that seven does not literally mean 7, forty does not literally mean 40, one hundred and forty four does not literally mean 144. For example 40 is symbolic of probation or testing.

So when we come to Revelation, 7 continues to symbolize divine perfection or completion, but it also means exactly what it is -- the number 7. Since Revelation is the book of completion it is significant that 7 is repeated over and over again, It does not mean 8, nor does it mean 70 or 700.

It doesn't automatically mean that 7 HAS to be literal either, does it? And yet Dispensationalists insist it does. For what reason? If 7 is used throughout scripture to signal both 7 and also completeness and perfect, then shouldn't any responsible exegete come to a passage with that knowledge in hand? Shouldn't we allow the possibility, rather than holding so hard to a system that we refuse to allow what we know God has revealed beforehand to enter into the way we read it?

This is incorrect. Dispensationalists tie Daniel and Revelation together, as well as any and all prophecies from Genesis to Revelation which impinge on what is revealed in Revelation (particularly the Olivet Discourse and prophecies pertaining to the Antichrist and the second coming of Christ).

If this is truly the case, then why do Dispensationalists have such a hard time seeing the symbolism used in Revelation? Daniel has repeated visions of beasts, horns and the like, which, yes, are mostly revealed to us. And when we come to Rev 13 and introduced to "the Beast rising out of the sea" we are again introduced to a strange beast, with 7 heads and 10 horns. It has feet like bear, but was like a leopard and it's mouth is like a lions mouth. Are we given an interpretation here? Nope. So...if we're following the Dispensational rule, we must expect this wonderful creature to actually show up. But if we use the precedent set down by Daniel, we can begin to understand that this beast signifies create power over the nations of the earth, probably residing in one entity. The passage goes on, allowing us to narrow it down, but you catch my meaning. Daniel allows us to move away from nightmare demon, to something earthly, but with a vast spiritual weight behind it.

And the exact same is seen all throughout Revelation, and the rest of the OT. Almost every time we see the "sky rolling up like a scroll", or "stars falling from the sky" or "mountains fleeing away", we can find correlating passages in the OT where such phrases were used. And when they were used, they were not used in the manner of "the world is ending" (as it would if the sky disappeared, or the mountains ran away). It's a figure of speech used to describe massive national disaster. For example, if it were to happen today and we had an OT writer handy...if the US toppled, he would write: "the sky is falling". And for most of the world, it would be. The cascading effect from America imploding would be catastrophic.

Since you suggested that the 144,000 were not literally Jews from the 12 tribes, then what else can it mean? But here is what you said: "I, on the otherhand, see the number as symbolic, and the reference to the witnesses as a reference to the whole Church." And since the text itself shows that you are mistaken, you should have accepted what I showed you instead of attacking me below.

Wait...because I disagreed with your interpretation of the text, that gives you leave to accuse me? Can you not see that is exactly what the others have been doing? How can their be unity in the Christian body when the slightest disagreement on a doctrinal issue is met with accusations and nastiness?

Your assumption about the 144000 was incorrect. Because I see it as the whole Church...as in, all the elect...that includes the great number of Jews that God will bring to Jesus at the end. I have also been fairly vocal on many threads about my thoughts on the Jewish nation. But, you know, if you hadn't read or remembered any of that, one can always just ask before going to bold.

Now you are making a direct and false accusation. What evidence you do you have to make such an accusation?

Well, you were upset, quite rightly, at vexatious and reggie for being disrespectful and making accusations against 'dispies', even though they didn't have their facts correct. And yet, you have also made statements, some of them disrespectful, against me and my view that are also incorrect. You have said that I am dishonest, and that I am foolish, and misrepresented what I believe about the Jews. So...how is what you have done any better?

 

[Naomi25]

All Israel is the Gentiles added to the Jews....not the Jews added to the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes is...then all of Israel will have been saved.

"Israel" is the elect...or Christ, even. The elect began being mostly Jews, in the OT, as it was God's plan to bring his Messiah and word through that people. After Christ the majority of his elect come from Gentiles, although some still come from the Jewish people. I simply believe that the closer we come to the end, the more God will call Jewish people into the elect...into the true Israel, if you want.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

When this thread was started, I didn't know much about the differences between dispensationalism and preterism (and their opposing views of the End Times, aka eschatology). I found an interesting comparison online. Here's a link to the article:

A Comparison of Three Systems

***I'd be interested to know if those in either camp find this information to be accurate.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I did not totally fall under any of the 3 views he covered in his outline. Go figure.

 

[Nancy]

I did not totally fall under any of the 3 views he covered in his outline. Go figure.

Me neither. Maybe we are Tri-Breeds...ha. I was surprised how much of the CT I did agree with though but, not all...esp. the Calvinism. I believe the OT saints looked forward to their Messiah in FAITH.
I like the NCT view on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of NT saints, and that the Spirit worked outside men before Jesus.

"NCT say that Israel was so frightened* that they would have accepted anything." <--- LOL.

A few more in there I don't remember but, I suppose I am a mutt. :)

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I'm with y'all! I guess we're the three theological mutts. ROTFL

 

[Nancy]

When this thread was started, I didn't know much about the differences between dispensationalism and preterism (that are opposing views of the End Times, aka eschatology). I found an interesting comparison online. Here's a link to the article:

A Comparison of Three Systems

***I'd be interested to know if those in either camp find this information to be accurate.

Very good link...it taught me allot as, I was never sure what "label" I fell under, lol.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Very good link...it taught me allot as, I was never sure what "label" I fell under, lol.

Reading the different views of both sides made me more glad than ever that I haven't chosen one camp or the other to set up my tent. I think there will be a lot of things we think we know, but we'll be very surprised or shocked about how wrong we were when it comes to eschatology.

Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I don't need to understand it all in order to do what God has commanded me to do--love Him, love others, share my faith.... I know Him, and I've learned how to walk in obedience to His voice through the Holy Spirit in me. I spend time in His Word daily to learn more about Him and to help me stay on track. That's the Christian life a far as I'm concerned. It's really simple!

 

[Helen]

It seems to me that the confusion and controversy about the kingdom of God is a result of the either/or thinking that ByGrace mentioned earlier in this thread. Some Christians say the kingdom of God is now and that Christians should take political power (Kingdom Now theology); others say it's in the future. But I believe it's both--that the kingdom of God is active and working in us and through us now with mighty demonstrations of God's power AND that Christ will establish His kingdom government on earth in the future. So, Christians experience one level of His kingdom here and now and a whole other level of it when Christ reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords on this earth.

John the Baptist proclaimed that the kingdom of God is "near" or "at hand" (Mark 1:15). I take this to mean within reach. Of course, Jesus said the kingdom of God within us. Various verses say that Jesus preached the Gospel of the kingdom. He demonstrated the power of the kingdom by healing people and casting out demons. The apostles demonstrated the power of God's kingdom in the same way. Paul spent the last 2 years of his life proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here's an interesting anecdote that I believe shows that at one level believers can experience the power of God's kingdom here and now. Sandra Kennedy, who has had a powerful healing ministry for years, tells this story:

One of the first miracles I witnessed was with my own mother who was dying of cancer. My family called me home because Mama was in a coma and the doctors said she only had a few days to live. On the airplane the Lord spoke to me and said, “Tell your mother, ‘Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.’ Tell your mother there is no sickness in heaven!”
​

She and her sister repeated this to their mom for 5 hours. Her mom came to and Sandra told her that she had a choice to live or die. Her mom chose to live and was healed. I think Sandra has said that her mom lived another 20 years....

Amen!! Totally. :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is very good to have such awesome siblings. I am from the mutt family and very honored to be.

 

[Taken]

Literal or symbolic??? Something Steve mentioned in the video is whether to take certain scriptures as being literal or symbolic. I'd like to suggest that some scriptures may be taken as both, even scriptures that have typically been interpreted as purely symbolic.

changed my mind...

Touching on two points of your post.

1)
Literally OR symbolic?

I trust the Knowledge presented in Scripture is Literal. Truth.
If it is not Literal, then how can it be Truth?

If The knowledge in Scripture is symbolic...
Then Who precisely is the One to Decide What it means? By observance; The Who, deciding What the supposed symbols mean...
Are umpteen Individual men.

Then what?
Men seek umpteen Different men's interpretations of the supposed symbols...and then what?

Logically weigh between other men's opinions of which one to choose to believe.

What is Logic?
It IS weighing Between two or more ideas and selecting one, that appears to make the most Sense.

MAKE the most Sense TO What?
The mans MIND.

It's a circle jerk rouse.

The Knowledge in Scripture Plainly notifies us;
God does NOT Lie.
The Lord IS the Truth.
The Carnal Mind IS Against God.
Gods Understanding IS NOT the same as mans.
Do NOT be duped by philosophies of men.

Bottom Line.
We are taught and asked TO Trust to Believe Him from our Hearts.

We are taught and asked TO Trust HE Will give us HIS Understanding of the Knowledge in Scriptures.

I absolutely believe and trust what God has prepared for me to KNOW....is Absolute Truth, and He will give me His Understanding of His Approved Word.

2)
Changed your mind...
Scripture teaches;
God changes the Heart, and births a man a new spirit....and then FEEDS a mans spirit with HIS truth.
And thereafter, a man is to supersede the thoughts of HIS MIND, with the thoughts of his Heart.

IOW the thoughts of your MIND, should originate from the thoughts of your new HEART, being FED by the indwelling Spirit of God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

I'm sorry...how does national conversion contradict "my kingdom is not of this world"? We are all members of that Kingdom...which is not of this world. If the Jews came to Christ in large numbers, they would belong to this Kingdom as well, wouldn't they?
And yes...they would 'abandon Judaism'...to the extent that they followed it hoping it led to salvation. But we know from Paul's teaching that many of the early Jewish converts were told that it was not shameful or wrong for them to hold to their Jewish traditions out of respect of their forefathers and heritage, as long as they placed their faith and hope in Christ alone. In other words...he told them if they still wanted to observe circumcision, or the festivals, then go ahead, as long as they knew those things had been shadows of the new covenant, of Christ. And that they could not hold Gentiles to those same things.
So...if it was like that then, how should it be different now?

Jesus' kingdom comes without observation. “Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

 

[Prayer Warrior]

It is very good to have such awesome siblings. I am from the mutt family and very honored to be.

Yes! We are sisters in Christ!!!

Man, you were up early, StunnedbyGrace!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Taken, I hope you see this post. I tried to use "reply" with your post, but it wouldn't work.

I agree with you that understanding the scriptures comes down to God giving us the understanding through His Holy Spirit. Man's logic seems to always fall short at some point. Is this what you're saying?

I have to warn you, though. Some theologians will probably disagree with what you wrote about the new heart. Here in the West, we value our minds above our hearts even though Jesus spoke so much about the heart. I think this is one of our biggest problems.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus' kingdom comes without observation.

Not forever. The day is coming when every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, and every knee will bow.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Taken, I hope you see this post. I tried to use "reply" with your post, but it wouldn't work.

I agree with you that understanding the scriptures comes down to God giving us the understanding through His Holy Spirit. Man's logic seems to always fall short at some point. Is this what you're saying?

I have to warn you, though. Some theologians will probably disagree with what you wrote about the new heart. Here in the West, we value our minds above our hearts even though Jesus spoke so much about the heart. I think this is one of our biggest problems.

As a man THINKS in his heart, so is he.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes! We are sisters in Christ!!!

Man, you were up early, StunnedbyGrace!

Yes, it's the oddest thing. No matter what time I go to sleep, my eyes automatically pop open about 3 A. M. Occasionally not til 4.

 

[Dave L]

Not forever. The day is coming when every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, and every knee will bow.

This is Jesus, not the kingdom here now, that one must be born again to see John 3:3. When Jesus returns on the last day, he resurrects the Just followed by the rapture of the saints then living 1 Thessalonians 4:16–18. This followed by the resurrection of the wicked and their judgement John 5:29. Followed by the conflagration of the universe and the creation of the New Heavens and earth where the Kingdom remains forever 2 Peter 3:10–13.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

First of all "dispies" is a derogatory term used by those who are ignorant about what Dispensationalism means, and simply believe all the lies and propaganda which have been in circulation for sometime.

Since I am a Dispensationalist, I can tell you that the true teaching of Dsipensationalism is that the Bible must be taken in its plain literal sense UNLESS there is good reason not to.

For example, there are many who teach that the book of Revelation is purely symbolic, and all the events described therein were already fulfilled in the first century. We know that that is pure fantasy, since the New Heavens and the New Earth have not been established as yet, and an "end of sins" and "eternal righteousness" worldwide is still a long way off.

In other words metaphors in the Bible should be understood for what they are, but plain Scriptures should not be spiritualized and allegorized on a whim. Dispensationalists also understand that there are depths and layers to Bible interpretation, that Christ is revealed throughout the OT, as well as in the Old Covenant, that there are types of Christ from Adam onwards, etc.

The reason for the bitter animosity (and in some cases hatred) against Christian brothers and sisters is because Dispensationalism has shown Christians that Covenant Theology, Amillennialism, Post-Millennialism, Preterism, etc. are completely false. These ideas originated in the Catholic Church but were never challenged by the Protestant Reformers (who were too busy with focusing on the Gospel and other Bible doctrines).

One of the major errors addressed by Dispensationalism is the arrogant assumption that God is finished with the Jews and with Israel, even though the Bible makes it crystal clear that just as God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church in the New Jerusalem (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body, the Body of Christ), He also has an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel on earth in the Millennium, and beyond.

At the same time, we need to be clear that there are variations even among Dispensationalists, and Hyper-Dispensationalism is an example of falsely interpreting Scripture. This is known as Bullingerism or Acts 28 Ultra-Dispensationalism, which teaches that the Church did not begin at Pentecost, but with Paul turning away from the Jews (Acts 28:28), that water baptism is not necessary for Christians, etc. True Dispensationalists have already written against this nonsense.

In brief, Dispensationalism opposes nonsensical Bible interpretation, and every Christian should be in agreement with that. In fact every Christian should be a Dispensationalist.

The main problem I see with your conclusion here--that every Christian should be a dispensationalist--is that I really believe the dispensationalists may have it wrong about some things. Not everything, mind you. And preterists probably have it wrong about some things. The danger in putting both feet squarely in one camp or the other is that you tend to view the scriptures (and God Himself) through the lens of that belief system, but it's a manmade system.

GOD WILL NOT BE BOXED INTO ANY MANMADE SYSTEM! Every manmade system, whether it's denominational doctrine or something broader, breaks down at some point because it cannot explain the whole of WHO GOD IS.

If you continue on this course, you'll be fighting against your fellow soldiers (even though we wrestle not against flesh and blood)
in this war against the devil and his evil agenda. The defensiveness I mentioned to you in an earlier post is a result of your having to defend your position. There are always going to be fellow Christians who disagree with your position, so you will always be fighting against your fellow Christians at a time when unity in the body of Christ is more important than ever (at least, according to dispensational teaching)!

Where does loving one another and so proving to be Jesus' disciples fit into this scenario??? As long as we're mostly interested in proving that we're right, we can't be loving our Christian brothers and sisters because we see them as the enemy. The desire to prove that we're right (which comes from the flesh, the sin nature, the old man) trumps the command to love (which is lived out in the Spirit).

Do you see the problem?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Yes, it's the oddest thing. No matter what time I go to sleep, my eyes automatically pop open about 3 A. M. Occasionally not til 4.

I know what you mean. I've been experiencing that since "the change." After about 2 weeks of that, my brain doesn't want to work any more. :)