Dispensationalism

[LC627]

How do you consider the exodus hidden? Pharoah certainly knew it happened.
Hidden from whom?

His army knew it too when they drowned :cool:

 

[Nancy]

I have posted this video which I think is fair and balanced. I very much like this brother and his kindly approach. He actually acts like a brother. It's a bit long...but very worth the listen. Enjoy! :)

Good video Epi...only watched half so, if I have time tomorrow morning, I will watch the rest...an hour was enough for tonight, lol.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I watched the video and liked Steve's straightforwardness (wow, that’s a long word). I also appreciated that he kept going back to the Bible, and I agree with him that the three guys he was critiquing were over the top with their rhetoric. IMHO, we should be VERY careful about calling fellow Christians heretics.

I found myself wishing that Steve would explain terms a little more. He knows so much, and I could have understood his position better with more background info. Maybe I’ll check out his other videos.

The bottom line for me right now is that I don’t have the energy to figure out which camp my beliefs fall into. (With Hurricane Michael moving through my area last night, I didn’t get much sleep, so my brain is tired.) And I don’t know that I would live any differently if my beliefs fall squarely into one camp or the other. IOW, how would it help me love God and others and share my faith....

For diehards in either camp, please don’t attack me for my honest assessment of the video and this issue. God is using me despite my theological shortcomings.

Edit: BTW, Epi, thanks for posting the video. I really enjoy his teaching style, and like I said, I'll probably check out some of his other videos.

 

[Nancy]

I watched the video and liked Steve's straightforwardness (wow, that’s a long word). I also appreciated that he kept going back to the Bible, and I agree with him that the three guys he was critiquing were over the top with their rhetoric. IMHO, we should be VERY careful about calling fellow Christians heretics.

I found myself wishing that Steve would explain terms a little more. He knows so much, and I could have understood his position better with more background info. Maybe I’ll check out his other videos.

The bottom line for me right now is that I don’t have the energy to figure out which camp my beliefs fall into. (With Hurricane Michael moving through my area last night, I didn’t get much sleep, so my brain is tired.) And I don’t know that I would live any differently if my beliefs fall squarely into one camp or the other. IOW, how would it help me love God and others and share my faith....

For diehards in either camp, please don’t crucify me for my honest assessment of the video and this issue. God is using me despite my theological shortcomings.

"The bottom line for me right now is that I don’t have the energy to figure out which camp my beliefs fall into."
I stand totally with you here. And true, how could it affect our Love for Him and our salvation ect. anyway.
(With Hurricane Michael moving through my area last night, I didn’t get much sleep, so my brain is tired.)
I hope no damage!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

"The bottom line for me right now is that I don’t have the energy to figure out which camp my beliefs fall into."
I stand totally with you here. And true, how could it affect our Love for Him and our salvation ect. anyway.
(With Hurricane Michael moving through my area last night, I didn’t get much sleep, so my brain is tired.)
I hope no damage!

Thanks, Nancy! We actually got the outskirts of the system, so no damage. I live in a hundred year old farmhouse with hundred year old pecan trees all around. Sometimes, they drop huge branches for no apparent reason. So, when the wind is strong, I get a little worried even though I shouldn't. God had assured me that no trees would fall on the house, so I should've just slept like a baby.

 

[Nancy]

Thanks, Nancy! We actually got the outskirts of the system, so no damage. I live in a hundred year old farmhouse with hundred year old pecan trees all around. Sometimes, they drop huge branches for no apparent reason. So, when the wind is strong, I get a little worried even though I shouldn't. God had assured me that no trees would fall on the house, so I should've just slept like a baby.

Your place sounds lovely! I am happy there was no damage and, yeah-see! Oh ye of little faith gets little sleep J/K

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Your place sounds lovely! I am happy there was no damage and, yeah-see! Oh ye of little faith gets little sleep J/K

ROFL--is that right? Roll on floor laughing? LOL

 

[Nancy]

ROFL--is that right? Roll on floor laughing? LOL

Lol...you just need the "T" ROTFL The floor...not that it matters! Bbyrd has plenty to keep us guessing, lol.

 

[Naomi25]

First of all "dispies" is a derogatory term used by those who are ignorant about what Dispensationalism means, and simply believe all the lies and propaganda which have been in circulation for sometime.

Since I am a Dispensationalist, I can tell you that the true teaching of Dsipensationalism is that the Bible must be taken in its plain literal sense UNLESS there is good reason not to.

For example, there are many who teach that the book of Revelation is purely symbolic, and all the events described therein were already fulfilled in the first century. We know that that is pure fantasy, since the New Heavens and the New Earth have not been established as yet, and an "end of sins" and "eternal righteousness" worldwide is still a long way off.

In other words metaphors in the Bible should be understood for what they are, but plain Scriptures should not be spiritualized and allegorized on a whim. Dispensationalists also understand that there are depths and layers to Bible interpretation, that Christ is revealed throughout the OT, as well as in the Old Covenant, that there are types of Christ from Adam onwards, etc.

What happens when the "plain, literal sense" of the book in question is to read it symbolically?
I understand and totally agree that we must let scripture tell us how it is to be interpreted. And that we must not take it upon ourselves to read it as we choose. And when we come to Revelation we are told by John, straight out of the gate, how we need to come to his book:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. -Revelation 1:1–2

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” -Revelation 1:10–11

And then throughout the whole book, how often does John say, "then I saw..."?
John is describing vision after vision that was shown to him by Christ, things in heaven, things on earth, things that have taken place, things that will take place. Spiritual things, earthly things. All absolutely true things.

I often wonder why, when people accuse us of "spiritualizing" things, that that has to be a bad thing. As Christians, the best part of our lives is spiritual. God is a spiritual being. We fight, not against flesh, but against spirits. The spiritual world is real, and what is playing out beyond our ability to see is a cosmic battle of epic proportions. A lot of it echos here, as the saints persevere in Christ, and Satan spreads his lies and death. But oh! It is as real and as essential as anything we can see and touch! More! In Revelation God is giving us, through John, a peek behind the curtain, so to speak. How precious! But we must read it as God has given it. He gave it in symbols, in images that speak beyond earthly realities...things we see shadows of, but cannot see fully. Let me attempt to explain:
When adults talk to children, and attempt to explain things to them, we at times must use under simplification: "what's a plane?"..."it's like a giant bird, that flies in the sky" Or we use things that aren't exactly accurate (literally), but are still what the child can grasp, "We'll go to heaven forever"..."how long is forever?"..."it's the biggest number there is!"..."maybe 100!" (100 being "the biggest number" to a child of a certain age!).
There are things that we, as created beings, are just not going to grasp. And so God uses images, and ideas throughout scripture to paint certain concepts for us. These don't become less in truth or gloriousness because they are not "literally exact".

I suppose what I am trying to communicate here is this: I know a lot of Dispensationalists think that when people like me "spiritualize" things in scripture, we are like the liberals who then claim it didn't really happen, and it's just some story that we should take some moral or philosophical idea away from. That is not so. Boy...so not so! And if I do nothing else, I hope I can help you do away with that idea.

Let me try and give you just one example of the difference between our interpretation in Revelation, and how that plays out on the ground. Take the passage on the 144000 witnesses. You, I believe, see them as Jewish converts, of that specific number, who will preach and convert others during the Tribulation? I, on the otherhand, see the number as symbolic, and the reference to the witnesses as a reference to the whole Church. So, while, yes, I "spiritualize" this passage, I'm not "wishing it away" as some story, I'm saying that "on the ground"...physically, there are an uncountable number of converts going out through the years, preaching Christ. While you may heartily disagree with how I interpret it, and where I ended up, I hope, very much, you will see that 'spiritualizing' the passage is not as terrible as you were perhaps lead to believe. No, I may not see it as Jewish converts (although they would certainly be included), I see the whole Church having a purpose (as we know we already do, so it's not entirely new information) and marching forth over the whole earth! Not exactly just me dismissing it as a 'nice allegory'...I actually think it's boots on the ground.

The reason for the bitter animosity (and in some cases hatred) against Christian brothers and sisters is because Dispensationalism has shown Christians that Covenant Theology, Amillennialism, Post-Millennialism, Preterism, etc. are completely false. These ideas originated in the Catholic Church but were never challenged by the Protestant Reformers (who were too busy with focusing on the Gospel and other Bible doctrines).

One of the major errors addressed by Dispensationalism is the arrogant assumption that God is finished with the Jews and with Israel, even though the Bible makes it crystal clear that just as God has an eternal plan and purpose for the Church in the New Jerusalem (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body, the Body of Christ), He also has an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel on earth in the Millennium, and beyond.

At the same time, we need to be clear that there are variations even among Dispensationalists, and Hyper-Dispensationalism is an example of falsely interpreting Scripture. This is known as Bullingerism or Acts 28 Ultra-Dispensationalism, which teaches that the Church did not begin at Pentecost, but with Paul turning away from the Jews (Acts 28:28), that water baptism is not necessary for Christians, etc. True Dispensationalists have already written against this nonsense.

In brief, Dispensationalism opposes nonsensical Bible interpretation, and every Christian should be in agreement with that. In fact every Christian should be a Dispensationalist.

You know I've been quite vocal in standing up for Dispensationalism, even though I am not one, because of the false claims others have been making towards it's beliefs.
So...I would respectfully ask the same of you.
Not all Amillenialist, or Postmillenialists "arrogantly" think God has finished with Israel. Like you've said about Dispensationalism, there is much diversity within our schools of thought as well, and it does no one any favors to try and broad brush them all.

I would also caution your bold claim that Dispensationalist have "shown Christians that Covenant Theology, Amillennialism, Post-Millennialism, Preterism, etc. are completely false. These ideas originated in the Catholic Church but were never challenged by the Protestant Reformers (who were too busy with focusing on the Gospel and other Bible doctrines)."

Sister, you may be sure in your heart of these things, and good for you, but there is plenty of good, honest, biblical dialogue to be had that proves that your certainty that we have been doctrinaly "put in our place" is not factual.

 

[Naomi25]

They are false prophets. Unless you can find one direct scripture supporting any of what I outlined from their writings.

Well...here's the thing. I am not a Dispensationalists. I think that many of their suppositions are weak and a lot of the ideas are read into scripture.

HOWEVER...there is enough biblical evidence for them to 1) lie within biblical orthodoxy...which makes them our Christian siblings. And 2)...they said Israel must become a nation again and we laughed at...and then Israel became a nation. They said that Russian, Iran, Turkey, Libia and Sudan would come against Israel in the last days, with Saudi Arabi objecting about it and were again laughed at. But low and behold...Iran, who used to be an ally of Israel years ago, now hates her with a passion and vows her destruction with every breath. Turkey, a Country Israeli's used to vacation in now spits venom towards her over Temple rights. Russia, Turkey and Iran sit in Syria on Israel's boarder, just having made cosy with Libia, as tensions mount with Israel.

I would say we need to hold off on the "false prophets" accusations and admit that the Dispensationalists deserve a seat at the table just as much as the others do.

 

[Enoch111]

I often wonder why, when people accuse us of "spiritualizing" things, that that has to be a bad thing.

Well if it is meant to distort the meaning of Scripture, it is a bad thing. Let's take the example of 1260 days ("a thousand two hundred and three score days"). The fact that they are 1260 days is confirmed by the use of 42 months (1260/30), which is 3 1/2 years (42/12), which then translates into time (1 year) + times (2 years) + the dividing of time or half a time (6 months).

Now if someone comes along and say "Oh, 1260 days means 1260 years" you know that is totally absurd. But that is the result of spiritualizing what is factual.

We fight, not against flesh, but against spirits. The spiritual world is real, and what is playing out beyond our ability to see is a cosmic battle of epic proportions.

Now you are off on an entirely different subject. We are talking about the plain literal meaning of words and texts. Of course there is a spiritual battle, but that is not our focus at the moment.

But we must read it as God has given it. He gave it in symbols, in images that speak beyond earthly realities...things we see shadows of, but cannot see fully.

If John tells us that the seven candlesticks or lampstands represent the seven churches, and the seven stars represent the seven angels, then the symbols have been explained. So to now keep insisting that they are all symbols is dishonest. There are no "shadows" here. There were actually seven churches in Asia Minor (presently Turkey) and some of those cities can still be pinpointed.

And just about every symbol in the Bible is explained, sooner or later. Take Nebuchadnezzar's dream or Joseph's dreams. They were all interpreted. Taken even the serpent on the pole in the wilderness. It represented Christ on the Cross.

Take the passage on the 144000 witnesses. You, I believe, see them as Jewish converts, of that specific number, who will preach and convert others during the Tribulation? I, on the other hand, see the number as symbolic, and the reference to the witnesses as a reference to the whole Church.

Well this is a good example of FAULTY SPIRITUALIZING. Revelation 7 spells out the twelve tribes of Israel. 12 x 12,000 = 144,000, and there is no getting away from simple math. We are also given details of each tribe. Then God gives us a glimpse of the Church as a completely different group. So trying to simply confuse and confound the two just because people believe that God is finished with Israel as Israel is not only foolish but dishonest. Here is the contrast (as given by the Holy Spirit Himself):

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. (v 4) There can be no mistaking of the term "the children of Israel" (meaning the 12 tribes of Israel).[Note: These are not evangelists as is clear from chapters 7 and 14]

But then we have this so that no honest person will confuse the Church with Israel: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands (v 9)

The Church does indeed consist of believers from all nations, kindreds, tribes, and tongues (languages), and they cannot be numbered because of the huge number of people in the Church. But there are two distinct groups within the same chapter.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Well...here's the thing. I am not a Dispensationalists. I think that many of their suppositions are weak and a lot of the ideas are read into scripture.

HOWEVER...there is enough biblical evidence for them to 1) lie within biblical orthodoxy...which makes them our Christian siblings. And 2)...they said Israel must become a nation again and we laughed at...and then Israel became a nation. They said that Russian, Iran, Turkey, Libia and Sudan would come against Israel in the last days, with Saudi Arabi objecting about it and were again laughed at. But low and behold...Iran, who used to be an ally of Israel years ago, now hates her with a passion and vows her destruction with every breath. Turkey, a Country Israeli's used to vacation in now spits venom towards her over Temple rights. Russia, Turkey and Iran sit in Syria on Israel's boarder, just having made cosy with Libia, as tensions mount with Israel.

I would say we need to hold off on the "false prophets" accusations and admit that the Dispensationalists deserve a seat at the table just as much as the others do.

But it's not Israel at all is it, the cunning of them that called it that name, such is in fact a great delusion in fact, the True Jews do not say that it is Israel at all, but they hope for it to be one day in the future, it was only the Zionist that clamed this name for the State.

The Roman Catholic Church has called it's self Israel for 2000 years.
Not to mention that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel in fact for 2000 years.

I remember Pope JP 2 rejected the State naming it's self Israel for years and all the satanic media idiots making out that the Pope JP2 was a idiot and laughing that he some how did not understand the situation and that all the Catholics were that stupid that they were wrong and all this coming from moron atheist in the Media who know nothing at all about Christianity worthy of putting such that they know on a postage stamp. I was sick of hearing media fools claiming the high road, when in fact they were only doing the work of Satan.
The thing was that the media was using propaganda to undermine the truth and that the true Jews do not say that it is Israel at all, so why do they hide that fact that the most truly devout educated religious Jews do not believe it is Israel as well.
It's just cunning of Satan to make such a claim or just stupidity in fact, so it comes down to if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it.

The cunning deception is so well orchestrated that it takes the cake for being the biggest lie in the history of the world.
The true Jews are upset that it is not Israel in fact, they want it to be Israel for sure but they know that it is not, because they are upset that all the degenerates that are about the Land that in no way represents the OT Israel.

If it was like the OT Israel even I would be happy for them to be living like that, but I am sad for them, that they have to put up with what is going on over there with most being not worthy of even being a Jew for a start. look at all the atheist and homosexuals etc that they have running about, they would be kicked out for a start, not worthy at all, such would of been killed in fact on the spot. if you know the History you know that that's a fact.

I under stand the Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ because they do not know him, but the real Jews will come to know Jesus all it takes is that spark and they will come to Christ.

 

[Dave L]

Well...here's the thing. I am not a Dispensationalists. I think that many of their suppositions are weak and a lot of the ideas are read into scripture.

HOWEVER...there is enough biblical evidence for them to 1) lie within biblical orthodoxy...which makes them our Christian siblings. And 2)...they said Israel must become a nation again and we laughed at...and then Israel became a nation. They said that Russian, Iran, Turkey, Libia and Sudan would come against Israel in the last days, with Saudi Arabi objecting about it and were again laughed at. But low and behold...Iran, who used to be an ally of Israel years ago, now hates her with a passion and vows her destruction with every breath. Turkey, a Country Israeli's used to vacation in now spits venom towards her over Temple rights. Russia, Turkey and Iran sit in Syria on Israel's boarder, just having made cosy with Libia, as tensions mount with Israel.

I would say we need to hold off on the "false prophets" accusations and admit that the Dispensationalists deserve a seat at the table just as much as the others do.

False prophets use scripture. You would not listen to them if they did not. If you define Israel by the NT, today's Jews and State of Israel are such in name only. Jesus is Israel along with those who believe in him. Any broken off former Jews will be reunited to Israel (Christendom) only through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Unless you were some odd fringe element, I don't think anyone would disagree with you Dave that it is through faith in Christ that Israel will come to God. I mean, salvation IS by Grace and through faith.

Here's my thought about others getting offended when I say I believe Israel will one day say, in large numbers, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. We are told that temporary blindness has been put on them. And we used to be blind but our blindness was lifted. And in this way, it says, He has shut everyone up in disobedience so He could bless all.

I don't take offense when anyone says Israel will never come to God in large numbers, but I do think the y haven t carefully enough searched the matter out, and I fear for them that they have a touch of pride that they were grafted in while Israel was shut up in blindness and disobedience.

if I had nothing to do with my blindness being lifted, and it was lifted because of God's kindness, even while I was in disobedience, I don't take that opportunity to condemn other blind men but rather to fear God and plead for them.

 

[Dave L]

Unless you were some odd fringe element, I don't think anyone would disagree with you Dave that it is through faith in Christ that Israel will come to God. I mean, salvation IS by Grace and through faith.

Here's my thought about others getting offended when I say I believe Israel will one day say, in large numbers, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. We are told that temporary blindness has been put on them. And we used to be blind but our blindness was lifted. And in this way, it says, He has shut everyone up in disobedience so He could bless all.

I don't take offense when anyone says Israel will never come to God in large numbers, but I do think the y haven t carefully enough searched the matter out, and I fear for them that they have a touch of pride that they were grafted in while Israel was shut up in blindness and disobedience.

if I had nothing to do with my blindness being lifted, and it was lifted because of God's kindness, even while I was in disobedience, I don't take that opportunity to condemn other blind men but rather to fear God and plead for them.

The problem with most in understanding the broken off Jews (now gentiles) being grafted back into Israel, is that it will never be on a national level. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. And God placed them under wrath until the end.

“Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost [end].” (1 Thessalonians 2:16)

Furthermore they trample down Jerusalem as gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. Until the end of the world. Jesus said:

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [gentiles], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19–20)

 

[Episkopos]

Something that Steve mentioned in the video...about we Gentiles being grafted into the "green olive tree" ...which is both Judah and Israel. Because the tree is a leafy tree...all the branches that don't bear fruit are broken off.

Jer. 11:16 The Lord called your name,
Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit.
With the noise of a great tumult
He has kindled fire on it,
And its branches are broken.

17 “For the Lord of hosts, who planted you, has pronounced doom against you for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke Me to anger in offering incense to Baal.”

This is the Olive tree spoken of by Paul here...

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

So then we who are grafted into the holy tree are not Judah...but Israel.

 

[Enoch111]

False prophets use scripture. You would not listen to them if they did not.

You continue to slander Dispensationalists, when you are ignorant about what they believe, and also ignorant about Bible prophecy. Take some time to educate yourself properly before hurling wild and baseless accusations (like the Left-Liberals).

If you define Israel by the NT, today's Jews and State of Israel are such in name only.

Anyone who knows the history of the nation-state of modern Israel knows that Zionism was purely secular and rejected Messiah as well as the Lord Jesus Christ. The world is full of unbelieving Jews today, but many are being saved in Israel as well as world-wide.

However, the prophecies in Scripture pertain to God's dealings with Israel and the Jews AFTER the second coming of Christ: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,[Christ] and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Israel] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:25-27)

Jesus is Israel along with those who believe in him.

This is TOTAL NONSENSE but we hear this a lot. How can Jesus "be Israel" when Jesus is the King of Israel? And those who believe in Him are the Church, not Israel.

Any broken off former Jews will be reunited to Israel (Christendom) only through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

That's a good way to misinterpret Scripture. Christendom is not the Church since a a large segment of Christendom is False Christianity, including the RCC and the World Council of Churches.

Looks like you are wise in your own conceits according to Paul.

 

[Enoch111]

Something that Steve mentioned in the video...about we Gentiles being grafted into the "green olive tree" ...which is both Judah and Israel.

1. First of all it is NOT "the green olive tree" but "the good olive tree" (as contrasted with the wild olive tree).

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? (Rom 11:24)

2. And the good olive tree is BELIEVING JEWS since Pentecost, NOT the kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

The first Church was an all-Jewish Church and thousands of Jews were saved on the day of Pentecost and shortly thereafter. But the Jews and Israel -- by and large -- rejected their Messiah. After the second coming of Christ there will be a huge change in their attitude to Christ, and "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26)

So this just goes to show once again that you are simply not up to speed with your understanding of either Dispensationalism or Bible prophecy. Why don't you guys sit down and do some serious study, instead of ranting against Dispensationalists?

 

[Dave L]

You continue to slander Dispensationalists, when you are ignorant about what they believe, and also ignorant about Bible prophecy. Take some time to educate yourself properly before hurling wild and baseless accusations (like the Left-Liberals).

Anyone who knows the history of the nation-state of modern Israel knows that Zionism was purely secular and rejected Messiah as well as the Lord Jesus Christ. The world is full of unbelieving Jews today, but many are being saved in Israel as well as world-wide.

However, the prophecies in Scripture pertain to God's dealings with Israel and the Jews AFTER the second coming of Christ: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,[Christ] and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (Rom 11:25-27)

This is TOTAL NONSENSE but we hear this a lot. How can Jesus "be Israel" when Jesus is the King of Israel? And those who believe in Him are the Church, not Israel.

That's a good way to misinterpret Scripture. Christendom is not the Church since a a large segment of Christendom is False Christianity, including the RCC and the World Council of Churches.

Looks like you are wise in your own conceits according to Paul.

Put up merely one scripture directly supporting any of their their claims mentioned above, and prove yourself right in the matter.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Literal or symbolic??? Something Steve mentioned in the video is whether to take certain scriptures as being literal or symbolic. I'd like to suggest that some scriptures may be taken as both, even scriptures that have typically been interpreted as purely symbolic.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. In Revelation 12:1, a woman is described as "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet...." I had always looked at this verse as being purely symbolic. IOW, there was nothing literal about what John described. This is how I've heard Bible teachers teach about this verse.

Several years ago, I saw a video that changed my mind about this. It's a documentary titled, "The Star of Bethlehem" by Rick Larson. Larson is a lawyer who set out to research the star in order to create a Christmas scene in his yard. What he found through his research is fascinating! (You can purchase the video online. It's worth every penny!)

Through the use of astronomy software, he was able to find the "star"(actually 2 planets) in the sky probably around the time of Jesus' conception, which is amazing, but he found something else. He found that on the horizon around that time, the constellation Virgo (the virgin) rising with the sun behind her ("clothed with the sun') and the moon "under her feet". The moon was a new moon signifying a new life, i.e. birth. He also found the same scenario around the time of Christ's crucifixion, except the moon was a full blood moon!

So, John literally "saw" in the vision the position of the sun, stars and moon, and he described this literal event! Of course, we know that it's also symbolic. The woman signifies the Virgin Mary, and like I said before, the moon phases signify the phases of Christ's life--birth and a bloody death.

What amazes me most about Larson's discovery is that when God created the universe, I believe that He placed the heavenly bodies (stars, sun, moon and planets) just where they needed to be in order to create these signs in the heavens to point to these events. This should make your brain feel funny when you think about it! What an AWESOME God He is!!!!!

I need to mention that Larson almost aborted his research because he was afraid of getting hooked into the false New Age religion of astroLoGy, which is looking to the heavenly bodies to tell your future, as opposed to astroNoMy, which is the study of the heavenly bodies. Genesis 1:14 says, "Then God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night. They will also serve as signs for festivals and for days and years.'" So, one of the reasons God created the heavenly bodies is to serve as signs.

Edit: I just found "The Star of Bethlehem" on YouTube.