Dispensationalism versus Hyper-Dispensationalism

[Prayer Warrior]

Romans 8:1-4--Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. [This is the other law Paul referred to that was "against" the law of his mind which is the Law of God.] What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. [The law of God is limited by the flesh because the flesh is against the Law of God, but the indwelling Spirit is NOT against the Law of God which is why the spiritually minded person can be subject to the Law.] He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering, in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [Now that Yeshua has condemned sin in the flesh, which is another way of saying "breaking the Law of God in the flesh", and given us the indwelling Holy Spirit, we can be subject to the Law and actually obey it (fulfill the Law's requirements).]

The fact that the Law cannot make us righteous is not grounds for abolishing it. It cannot be abolished because breaking it is how we know that we have sinned. If we do not know we have sinned, then we cannot confess our sin and receive forgiveness. How diabolical Satan is. He has deceived Christians into believing the Law of YHWH is abolished so that we will go right on sinning throughout our lives and never confess those sins.​

We know that we sin because the Holy Spirit convicts us, and what is the new definition of sin in our new life as believers? Paul said that anything not done of FAITH is sin.

Edit: I didn't say anything about abolishing the law. I think I addressed that in my first or second post to you.

Edit 2: Romans 14:23 (AMPC)--"For whatever does not originate and proceed from faith is sin [whatever is done without a conviction of its approval by God is sinful]."

That conviction comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit to us as individuals, not from the law given to all of Israel.

Edit 3: Look at what Paul said in Gal 3 (AMPC)--

Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?] Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?
​

He's pitting "observing the law" against living by faith.

(Sorry about all the edits! I'm the Edit Queen!)

 

[Stranger]

The true believer cannot fail except through renouncing Yeshua as his Savior. When any believer sins, we simply confess the sin, receive forgiveness and move on endeavoring to sin no more out of love for our Heavenly Father. We do not try to abolish the Law in order to avoid sin. Those under the OC Law fail repeatedly because they don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit or the Law in their heart. When they sin by breaking the Law, they are condemned to death. Under the NC, there is no such condemnation for sin (breaking the Law). However, that is not justification to continue in sin. A true believer MUST obey the Spirit as it leads us to obey the Law (be subject to the Law). Otherwise we grieve the Spirit. Most don't even know they are grieving the Spirit because they have been falsely taught there is no more Law to obey.

If the Spirit led you to obey the Law...what happened? You broke it. The Law killed you as a believer, just like it killed those under the Law.

Nice try....but the Law doens't reward trying.

Strnager

 

[gadar perets]

We know that we sin because the Holy Spirit convicts us, and what is the new definition of sin in our new life as believers? Paul said that anything not done of FAITH is sin.

And John said, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4
Paul also said, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." The law is established/stands through faith. So when we break the law and sin, we have done so against faith.

That conviction comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit to us as individuals, not from the law given to all of Israel.

They act in harmony with each other because the Law is now internal as is the indwelling Spirit.

Edit 3: Look at what Paul said in Gal 3 (AMPC)--

Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying the Law and doing its works, or was it by hearing [the message of the Gospel] and believing [it]? [Was it from observing a law of rituals or from a message of faith?] Are you so foolish and so senseless and so silly? Having begun [your new life spiritually] with the [Holy] Spirit, are you now reaching perfection [by dependence] on the flesh?
​

He's pitting "observing the law" against living by faith.

No he is not. In context, including the end of chapter 2, he is pitting being justified by law (works) against being justified by faith. He is also establishing the means of receiving the Holy Spirit and being perfected without "pitting" the Holy Spirit against the Law. His entire argument throughout the epistle is to address the misuse of the Law as a means of justification. Paul is pro-Torah.

 

[gadar perets]

If the Spirit led you to obey the Law...what happened? You broke it. The Law killed you as a believer, just like it killed those under the Law.

Nice try....but the Law doens't reward trying.

The Law does NOT kill believers who walk in the Spirit, but as Paul said the Spirit is at war with the flesh. Occasionally the flesh wins. The same holds true for believers who don't keep the Law. Like you. Or do you claim to be sinless?

 

[Stranger]

The Law does NOT kill believers who walk in the Spirit, but as Paul said the Spirit is at war with the flesh. Occasionally the flesh wins. The same holds true for believers who don't keep the Law. Like you. Or do you claim to be sinless?

It killed you because you broke the Law...even though it was written on your heart.

No, I don't claim to be sinless. But neither am I under the Law. You placed yourself in a position to obey the Law, yet you don't. Thus, the Law did it's work on you...and killed you.

Stranger

 

[Prayer Warrior]

And John said, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4
Paul also said, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." The law is established/stands through faith. So when we break the law and sin, we have done so against faith.


They act in harmony with each other because the Law is now internal as is the indwelling Spirit.


No he is not. In context, including the end of chapter 2, he is pitting being justified by law (works) against being justified by faith. He is also establishing the means of receiving the Holy Spirit and being perfected without "pitting" the Holy Spirit against the Law. His entire argument throughout the epistle is to address the misuse of the Law as a means of justification. Paul is pro-Torah.

With ALL that Paul said about the law, I wouldn't call him pro-law, if that's what you're saying by the term "pro-Torah." He said that the law was good, but he also understood it's true purpose, and that purpose was not to give life.

In an earlier post I had commented that Romans 8:2 was referring to the law, and you had disagreed. Here are the verses.

Romans 8:1-3

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did.​

I found other verses that support my position (meaning my position that the law of sin and death is the same as the law given through Moses); although, I'm more interested in speaking and understanding the truth than making myself appear right.

2 Corinthians 3:4-18

We have this kind of confidence toward God through Christ. It is not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God. He has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit produces life.​

Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stones, came with glory, so that the Israelites were not able to look directly at Moses’ face because of the glory from his face — a fading glory — how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness overflows with even more glory. In fact, what had been glorious is not glorious now by comparison because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was fading away was glorious, what endures will be even more glorious.​

Therefore, having such a hope, we use great boldness. We are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not stare at the end of what was fading away, but their minds were closed. For to this day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains; it is not lifted, because it is set aside only in Christ. Even to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all, with unveiled faces, are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit.
​

Look at what Paul is saying about the law here. He says that it "kills," that it's the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation." This is the "law of sin and death" mentioned in Romans 8:2, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death! Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom!!!

Here's the problem with a Christian keeping the law. A person can only have one focus. (That's why people shouldn't text and drive.:)) Either we focus on walking/living by the Spirit (things above), which gives life, or we focus our attention on living by the letter of the law (things on the earth), which kills and brings death and condemnation. We can't do both at the same time, and why would we focus on that which brings death? Of course, we are to set our minds on things above--that which brings life.

Colossians 3:2--

So if you have been raised with the Messiah, seek what is above, where the Messiah is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on what is above, not on what is on the earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God. When the Messiah, who is your life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
​

This seems to be a point of confusion for many Christians--what to do with the law. I've been saved for over 40 years, and it's taken quite a few of those years to learn the walk of faith, and I'm still learning. God's grace through faith saves us and lifts us off the earthly plane of living according to the sinful flesh that tries to keep the law, but cannot, because the law was given to expose sin, not fix the sin problem. So, the law is not the remedy for the flesh (i.e. sin nature). Crucifixion is the only remedy! That's why Paul said that he had been crucified with Christ...

Galatians 2:19-20--

For through the law I have died to the law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.​

Living on the faith plane is not accomplished through keeping the law in any way, but by living under the direction and unction of the Holy Spirit. I've learned to walk and live according to the Spirit by constantly communing with Him, meaning, I listen and allow Him to direct my steps.... So, instead of being directed by a set of rules, I'm directed by God's Spirit by grace though faith. Of course, the Spirit never directs me to sin, so I don't have to be mindful of the law. My eyes are on Him and my ears are attuned to His voice, and I submit myself to His authority over me. At least, that's the goal. The Amplified Classic version of the Bible says that the apostles were "filled with and controlled by the Holy Spirit." That's the Christian life!

I don't mean to sound like I'm perfect at this or that I've arrived. I'm not at all perfect in my walk of the Spirit! I fail in this walk of faith every day. I struggle with temptations of fear, doubt, and other wrong thoughts that work against faith. I started this life of faith over 40 years ago, and I endeavor to continue to live my life by grace through faith.

​

​

 

[gadar perets]

With ALL that Paul said about the law, I wouldn't call him pro-law, if that's what you're saying by the term "pro-Torah." He said that the law was good, but he also understood it's true purpose, and that purpose was not to give life.

Paul was definitely pro-law and against the misuse of it. We do not keep the law to give life or to be justified or to be saved or to receive the Spirit. We keep it because we love YHWH and He commanded us to keep it. It is so valuable, that He wrote it on our hearts and minds under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). It is so valuable that He gave us His indwelling Holy Spirit to aid in keeping it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). It is so valuable that Yeshua kept it perfectly. That is why he was sinless. For us to "go and sin no more", we must obey it as well.

In an earlier post I had commented that Romans 8:2 was referring to the law, and you had disagreed. Here are the verses.

Romans 8:1-3

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did.​

I found other verses that support my position (meaning my position that the law of sin and death is the same as the law given through Moses); although, I'm more interested in speaking and understanding the truth than making myself appear right.

2 Corinthians 3:4-18

We have this kind of confidence toward God through Christ. It is not that we are competent in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our competence is from God. He has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit produces life.​

Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stones, came with glory, so that the Israelites were not able to look directly at Moses’ face because of the glory from his face — a fading glory — how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness overflows with even more glory. In fact, what had been glorious is not glorious now by comparison because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was fading away was glorious, what endures will be even more glorious.​

Therefore, having such a hope, we use great boldness. We are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the Israelites could not stare at the end of what was fading away, but their minds were closed. For to this day, at the reading of the old covenant, the same veil remains; it is not lifted, because it is set aside only in Christ. Even to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We all, with unveiled faces, are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit.
​

Look at what Paul is saying about the law here. He says that it "kills," that it's the "ministry of death" and the "ministry of condemnation." This is the "law of sin and death" mentioned in Romans 8:2, but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death! Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom!!!

Both of these passages refer to the Law of YHWH under the OC in which it was weak through the flesh. The flesh without the Spirit could not keep the Law and the breaking of the Law (sin) brought forth death. Now, under the NC, the law is written internally and it works in conjunction with the Spirit which empowers us to obey.

Here's the problem with a Christian keeping the law. A person can only have one focus. (That's why people shouldn't text and drive.:)) Either we focus on walking/living by the Spirit (things above), which gives life, or we focus our attention on living by the law (things on the earth), which kills and brings death and condemnation. We can't do both at the same time, and why would we focus on that which brings death? Of course, we are to set our minds on things above--that which brings life.

Our focus is on walking in the Spirit which includes the Spirit causing us to keep YHWH's laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

​

God's grace through faith saves us and lifts us off the earthly plane of living according to the sinful flesh that tries to keep the law, but cannot, because the law was given to expose sin, not fix the sin problem. So, the law is not the remedy for the flesh (i.e. sin nature). Crucifixion is the only remedy!

I do not try to live according to the sinful flesh. I live according to the Torah that is written in my heart and mind as the Spirit leads me. Yeshua proved the Law can be kept. Is it too hard for you to not steal or not commit adultery? Which part of the Law is so difficult that it cannot be kept? Yes, under the OC it could not be kept because they did not have the Holy Spirit to help.

Living on the faith plane is not accomplished through keeping the law in any way, but by living under the direction and unction of the Holy Spirit. I've learned to walk and live according to the Spirit by constantly communing with Him, meaning, I listen and allow Him to direct my steps.... So, instead of being directed by a set of rules, I'm directed by God's Spirit by grace though faith. Of course, the Spirit never directs me to sin, so I don't have to be mindful of the law. My eyes are on Him and my ears are attuned to His voice, and I submit myself to His authority over me. At least, that's the goal. The Amplified Classic version of the Bible says that the apostles were "filled with and controlled by the Holy Spirit." That's the Christian life!

Faith establishes the Law. It makes the Law to stand (Romans 3:31). It is your flesh that directs you to sin. It is your flesh that tells you you do not need to obey the Law. The Spirit directs us to obey the Law in our heart.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Paul was definitely pro-law and against the misuse of it. We do not keep the law to give life or to be justified or to be saved or to receive the Spirit. We keep it because we love YHWH and He commanded us to keep it. It is so valuable, that He wrote it on our hearts and minds under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). It is so valuable that He gave us His indwelling Holy Spirit to aid in keeping it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). It is so valuable that Yeshua kept it perfectly. That is why he was sinless. For us to "go and sin no more", we must obey it as well.


Both of these passages refer to the Law of YHWH under the OC in which it was weak through the flesh. The flesh without the Spirit could not keep the Law and the breaking of the Law (sin) brought forth death. Now, under the NC, the law is written internally and it works in conjunction with the Spirit which empowers us to obey.


Our focus is on walking in the Spirit which includes the Spirit causing us to keep YHWH's laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

​

I do not try to live according to the sinful flesh. I live according to the Torah that is written in my heart and mind as the Spirit leads me. Yeshua proved the Law can be kept. Is it too hard for you to not steal or not commit adultery? Which part of the Law is so difficult that it cannot be kept? Yes, under the OC it could not be kept because they did not have the Holy Spirit to help.


Faith establishes the Law. It makes the Law to stand (Romans 3:31). It is your flesh that directs you to sin. It is your flesh that tells you you do not need to obey the Law. The Spirit directs us to obey the Law in our heart.

Romans 7:1-6 (AMPC)--

DO YOU not know, brethren—for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law—that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive? For [instance] a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is loosed and discharged from the law concerning her husband.

Accordingly, she will be held an adulteress if she unites herself to another man while her husband lives. But if her husband dies, the marriage law no longer is binding on her [she is free from that law]; and if she unites herself to another man, she is not an adulteress.

Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs,in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death.

But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
.

 

[gadar perets]

Romans 7:1-6 (AMPC)--

DO YOU not know, brethren—for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law—that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive? For [instance] a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is loosed and discharged from the law concerning her husband.

Accordingly, she will be held an adulteress if she unites herself to another man while her husband lives. But if her husband dies, the marriage law no longer is binding on her [she is free from that law]; and if she unites herself to another man, she is not an adulteress.

Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.

When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs,in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death.

But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
.

This passage refers to the relationship the holy, just, good, and spiritual law has to the carnal man living under the Old Covenant (Romans 7:14). His mind delights in the Law of YHWH (Romans 7:22), but his flesh wars against the Law of YHWH (Romans 7:23; 8:7). The solution?
Turn the carnal man into a spiritually minded man by giving him the indwelling Holy Spirit and write the Law in his heart and mind. Then he will fulfill the righteousness of the Law as the Spirit leads him. Of course, this is all contingent upon obeying the Spirit's leading as it causes us to obey YHWH's laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The problem preventing the solution? The indoctrination of Christians into believing the Law no longer applies to NC believers. As long as they believe that lie, they will continually fight against the Spirit in this regard.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

This passage refers to the relationship the holy, just, good, and spiritual law has to the carnal man living under the Old Covenant (Romans 7:14). His mind delights in the Law of YHWH (Romans 7:22), but his flesh wars against the Law of YHWH (Romans 7:23; 8:7). The solution?
Turn the carnal man into a spiritually minded man by giving him the indwelling Holy Spirit and write the Law in his heart and mind. Then he will fulfill the righteousness of the Law as the Spirit leads him. Of course, this is all contingent upon obeying the Spirit's leading as it causes us to obey YHWH's laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The problem preventing the solution? The indoctrination of Christians into believing the Law no longer applies to NC believers. As long as they believe that lie, they will continually fight against the Spirit in this regard.

No indoctrination at all on my part and no lies! I've quoted long portions of various letters written BY PAUL who had been a model Pharisee before he "saw the light"! In fact, I didn't quote from the Old Testament (Old Covenant) at all like you did.

You say, "he will fulfill the righteousness of the Law..." Really? Christians become righteous by obeying the law??? Perhaps you're the one indoctrinated and are having a hard time letting go of the old. It's so clear in Paul's letters that Christians are NOT to live by the law, but by the Spirit--for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death! I pray that you will see the TRUTH and stop misleading other Christians to put themselves in bondage to the law!
.

 

[gadar perets]

No indoctrination at all on my part and no lies! I've quoted long portions of various letters written BY PAUL who had been a model Pharisee before he "saw the light"! In fact, I didn't quote from the Old Testament (Old Covenant) at all like you did.

I'm not allowed to quote an OT passage that refers to the New Covenant? Or is it just tat you do not like what it says about the NC because it is contrary to what you have been indoctrinated to believe? Yes, you have quoted Paul, but out of context.

You say, "he will fulfill the righteousness of the Law..." Really? Christians become righteous by obeying the law??? Perhaps you're the one indoctrinated and are having a hard time letting go of the old.

The same way you misunderstand Paul, you have misunderstood me. The words, "fulfill the righteousness of the Law" are not my words, but Paul's (Romans 8:4). Believers become righteous through faith in Messiah Yeshua, not by obeying the Law.

It's so clear in Paul's letters that Christians are NOT to live by the law, but by the Spirit--for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death!

What IS clear in Paul's letters is that we are not to be justified, saved, or receive the Spirit by the Law and that we are to obey the Law through the Spirit.

I pray that you will see the TRUTH and stop misleading other Christians to put themselves in bondage to the law!

Obedience to the Law is liberty, not bondage. Breaking the Law is sin and sin is bondage.

James 1:22-25 – “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was. But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”​

What is the perfect law of liberty? First, Psalm 19 says the Law of Yahweh is perfect. It is a perfect law. Secondly, James 2:8-12 tells us what the perfect law of liberty is.

“If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, you do well: But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.”​

The law of verses 8-11 is the Old Covenant law. In verse 8, James is quoting the second greatest commandment which is actually an Old Covenant commandment found in Leviticus 19:18. In verse 9, the law he is referring to is the Old Covenant law. Verse 10 is often used by those opposed to obeying the Old Covenant laws. They say, “if you break one law you’ve broken them all, so why even try to keep the law?” So verse 10 is also speaking of the Old Covenant law. Of course, verse 11 is quoting two of the Ten Commandments which are also Old Covenant laws. In verse 12, James is saying that people are going to be judged by that same law. So, in order to receive a good judgment, speak and do according to those laws.

Paul said the same thing in Romans 2:12,13, “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before the Mighty One, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Not that the law justifies us. We are justified by faith. However, a saving faith will be evidenced by good works, among which include obedience to the law.

I pray that you will see the TRUTH and stop misleading other Christians to put themselves in bondage to sin (the breaking of the law - 1 John 3:4)!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I'm not allowed to quote an OT passage that refers to the New Covenant? Or is it just tat you do not like what it says about the NC because it is contrary to what you have been indoctrinated to believe? Yes, you have quoted Paul, but out of context.


The same way you misunderstand Paul, you have misunderstood me. The words, "fulfill the righteousness of the Law" are not my words, but Paul's (Romans 8:4). Believers become righteous through faith in Messiah Yeshua, not by obeying the Law.


What IS clear in Paul's letters is that we are not to be justified, saved, or receive the Spirit by the Law and that we are to obey the Law through the Spirit.


Obedience to the Law is liberty, not bondage. Breaking the Law is sin and sin is bondage.

James 1:22-25 – “For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was. But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”​

What is the perfect law of liberty? First, Psalm 19 says the Law of Yahweh is perfect. It is a perfect law. Secondly, James 2:8-12 tells us what the perfect law of liberty is.

“If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, you do well: But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.”​

The law of verses 8-11 is the Old Covenant law. In verse 8, James is quoting the second greatest commandment which is actually an Old Covenant commandment found in Leviticus 19:18. In verse 9, the law he is referring to is the Old Covenant law. Verse 10 is often used by those opposed to obeying the Old Covenant laws. They say, “if you break one law you’ve broken them all, so why even try to keep the law?” So verse 10 is also speaking of the Old Covenant law. Of course, verse 11 is quoting two of the Ten Commandments which are also Old Covenant laws. In verse 12, James is saying that people are going to be judged by that same law. So, in order to receive a good judgment, speak and do according to those laws.

Paul said the same thing in Romans 2:12,13, “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before the Mighty One, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Not that the law justifies us. We are justified by faith. However, a saving faith will be evidenced by good works, among which include obedience to the law.

I pray that you will see the TRUTH and stop misleading other Christians to put themselves in bondage to sin (the breaking of the law - 1 John 3:4)!

I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh...? So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promised Spirit through faith.

 

[gadar perets]

I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh...? So then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Why would you quote these passages when I just got done saying, "What IS clear in Paul's letters is that we are not to be justified, saved, or receive the Spirit by the Law and that we are to obey the Law through the Spirit."? Did you post them to affirm what I said was true?

 

[Stranger]

Why would you quote these passages when I just got done saying, "What IS clear in Paul's letters is that we are not to be justified, saved, or receive the Spirit by the Law and that we are to obey the Law through the Spirit."? Did you post them to affirm what I said was true?

But as you admitted, you can't keep the law even by the Spirit. What now?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

But as you admitted, you can't keep the law even by the Spirit. What now?

Stranger

I did not say I can't keep the law. I said I may "occasionally break the law, but not willfully". For example, I may accidentally eat something that contained pig, but I certainly would not knowingly eat pig. The Spirit has taught me to eat only clean meat. That is what I endeavor to do as best I can while living in the flesh.

 

[Stranger]

I did not say I can't keep the law. I said I may "occasionally break the law, but not willfully". For example, I may accidentally eat something that contained pig, but I certainly would not knowingly eat pig. The Spirit has taught me to eat only clean meat. That is what I endeavor to do as best I can while living in the flesh.

If you break the law in one point you have broken the law period. That is the nature of law. As to you fooling yourself that you can keep the law, you are doing just that, lying to yourself.

Do you covet? Come on, lie to me. In other words, did you want to?

You can 'endeavor' all you want. The law doesn't honor 'endeavoring'. It doesn't honor 'trying'. It honors complete obedience. You use words like 'endeavor' because you know you break the law. Just like everyone else knows you break the law.

So, as I said, what now? You couldn't keep it before. You can't keep it now. What good does it do you?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

If you break the law in one point you have broken the law period. That is the nature of law. As to you fooling yourself that you can keep the law, you are doing just that, lying to yourself.

Do you covet? Come on, lie to me. In other words, did you want to?

You can 'endeavor' all you want. The law doesn't honor 'endeavoring'. It doesn't honor 'trying'. It honors complete obedience. You use words like 'endeavor' because you know you break the law. Just like everyone else knows you break the law.

So, as I said, what now? You couldn't keep it before. You can't keep it now. What good does it do you?

Stranger

Do you murder people? Do you steal things? Do you make graven images to worship? If not, why not? The reason you hopefully do not break those commandments is because you love God. They are not difficult to obey. Neither are the other commandments.

No, I don't covet. Do you? I am content with what I have. Aren't you? I do not make breaking the law my lifestyle as you have.

The less carnal you are, the more you will obey. The more you walk in the Spirit, the less you will break the law. If you refuse to be led by the Spirit as it move you to obey the law, then you will continue to break the law and sin. You have conveniently tried to abolish the law, but it remains to tell you when you are sinning.

 

[Stranger]

Do you murder people? Do you steal things? Do you make graven images to worship? If not, why not? The reason you hopefully do not break those commandments is because you love God. They are not difficult to obey. Neither are the other commandments.

No, I don't covet. Do you? I am content with what I have. Aren't you? I do not make breaking the law my lifestyle as you have.

The less carnal you are, the more you will obey. The more you walk in the Spirit, the less you will break the law. If you refuse to be led by the Spirit as it move you to obey the law, then you will continue to break the law and sin. You have conveniently tried to abolish the law, but it remains to tell you when you are sinning.

It doesn't matter if you make breaking the law your lifestyle. Have you broken the law? If you have, then you are a lawbreaker.

You don't covet? My, my. You set yourself as greater than the apostle Paul. (Rom. 7:7) "...I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Which means I don't believe you. Am I guilty of coveting. You bet. I am a sinner through and through.

Your 'obedience to the law' has made you a liar. Is that a sin? Apparently not to you.

The Holy Spirit does not lead you to obey the law. The Holy Spirit leads you. I did not abolish the law. God did. Take it up with Him. (2 Cor. 3:7-11)

Your credibility is tainted.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Your credibility is tainted.

Stranger

Only by your false accusations. And yes, as part of the NC the Spirit causes us to obey. If not, then explain Ezekiel 36:26-27.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

 

[Stranger]

Only by your false accusations. And yes, as part of the NC the Spirit causes us to obey. If not, then explain Ezekiel 36:26-27.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

What false accusations? That you obey the law?

Having the Spirit of God and Christ in us does not move us to obey the law. We obey the Spirit of God and Christ, thus in so doing, do those things written in the law. Your emphasis is obeying the law. My emphasis is obeying the Spirit.

Neither emphasis finds you guiltless before the law. You just want to pretend your effort amounts to something. I am saying the law acknowledges no effort.

Stranger