Did God commend or approve of Rahab’s lie?

[stunnedbygrace]

How does this verse prove that she was lying?

She so obviously lied to the king when she said the men had left but they hadn’t left, that it would be preposterous to demand proof she lied or to continue a conversation about it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

She so obviously lied to the king when she said the men had left but they hadn’t left, that it would be preposterous to demand proof she lied or to continue a conversation about it.

Again, I explained in the opening of this thread (starting in post #2) that it is possible that she did not lie.
Although I do count it as a possibility she may have lied, too. If such were the case, then God was commending her for her protection of the spies, and not her lying to the guards. So when I hear people use Rahab as an excuse to lie for a good cause, I believe they are misguided. There is no clear teaching in the Bible that we are allowed to do so. In fact, the Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. If I wanted to have double protection insurance on my soul, I would want to make sure I will be far away from anything remotely that would be regarded as a lie. But most Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved and so this discussion is not really all that big of a deal for them. Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44). So I am not sure why folks here are trying to defend a tactic of the devil. I have talked with Christians on another forum who did not see a problem with porn. We are living in the last days where even those in the church are defending sin in God’s name. It’s not right. Somebody needs to take a stand for what is good and right (According to His Word). If I am the last one standing in defending His Word here, then so be it. May the LORD Jesus get all the glory.

 

[quietthinker]

If God commands the taking of life, it is not murder because God is the ultimate giver and taker of life (Job 1:21).
But when it comes to lying, God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18).
Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44).
All liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).
These are truths you must accept.
Once you do, then you will realize that God could not have commended Rahab for lying.
Thus, I believe she used clever word play instead. This is not uncommon to see in Scripture.
Jesus employed clever word play all the time and many misunderstood Him.
For example: Jesus said if they destroyed this temple he would raise it up again.
But Jesus did not let them in on the fact that He was referring to his body and not the actual religious temple.

Job thought God was the giver and taker of life but he also thought it was God who was giving him a hard time......when we know it was the devil who caused his grief.

I would also propose it is the devil who is the taker of life, not God.......and if Jesus is the full revelation of God as the book of Hebrews tells us he is, then this become even clearer. Jesus would rather give his life than take a life.

Jesus' language was clear to those who understood. It was those who didn't understand who needed to flip his words to suit their agenda.

......and by the way, God never commanded Elijah to do any killing. Elijah did that off his own back and suffered for it. The PTSD he was afflicted with had him running for his life out of fear of the threats of one woman.....Jezebel

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Once again,
James seems to think Rahab did a good work.
25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

And also,
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies [a]in peace.

So you obviously have gone in a different direction to both James and the writer of Hebrews. Two witnesses. One to her faith and the other to her works.

Continue on with your lawyerly obsession. Continue on with your virtue signaling and pious shock at us, James and the writer of Hebrews.

 

[Lambano]

There is no problem in employing deception if it does not compromise the truth.

Gotta love this quote. Ranks right up there with "It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it" and "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is".

 

[Lambano]

What do you think of this story from 1 Kings 22:19-23?

19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the angels of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one spirit said this, while another said that. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You shall entice him, and you will also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 Now then, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

Like Mark Twain said, "It ain't the parts of the Bible I don't understand that bother me; it's the parts I do understand."

 

[Moses_the_younger]

In the Old Testament God commanded the taking of life of pagan nations because the pagan nations sought to destroy the Israelites and because God needed to show that sin will be punished, as well. Revelation says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire and so if Rahab did lie, should we have sought forgiveness of such of sin with the LORD (either generally or specifically in coming to the LORD for salvation in being saved by His grace). Most Christians today believe you can sin and still be saved and so the idea that Rahab lying is not all that big of a deal to them. Of course we are living in the last days. So many cannot see what is plainly written in God’s Word.



Again, if God condemns lying in His Word, then it impossible for God to commend somebody for lying. What I believe God was commending Rahab for was her faith and not her lying (even if she did lie). The problem is that many Christians today have a skewed view of God's people in that they justified sin when this is simply not the case. Granted, you and or others are not going to use the words "justify sin" but that simply is the reality in light of God's Word, though. For if God commended Rahab for lying, then imagine what a Christian today can do if they believe that way.

Remember Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Liars are lumped in with murderers. If Rahab was a liar for deceiving the armies of Jericho, then the Israelites were murderers for killing them. That God commanded the Israelites to smite those living in Jericho, and those who did so could do it without being guilty of murder, gives Rahab the same right (by faith) to deceive the same armies (effectively joining the side of Israel), without being guilty of lying. Murder is worse than lying, so to think God can give the Israelites a dispensation for murder without a similar dispensation for lying or deception seems indicative that one has a poor understanding of the difference between the severity of the crimes.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Gotta love this quote. Ranks right up there with "It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it" and "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is".

The verse that came to my mind concerning it was the one about leaving behind the useless way of life/former conversation we learned from our parents. That whole…subtlety or…craftiness of trying To say something in such a way as to be able to wipe your mouth and then say, I’ve done nothing wrong. Even the thought of trying to lie but at the same time tell the truth is bizarre. When I lie, I lie boldly. Like if you ask me if I like your shirt and I think it looks like Walt Disney threw up on it but I say it’s nice. I’m lying, I know I’m lying, my purpose of heart is to not hurt your feelings with my opinion of the shirt, I don’t suffer in conscience, and I don’t think that’s the liar who will be thrown into outer darkness or be outside the gates.

 

[quietthinker]

The verse that came to my mind concerning it was the one about leaving behind the useless way of life/former conversation we learned from our parents. That whole…subtlety or…craftiness of trying To say something in such a way as to be able to wipe your mouth and then say, I’ve done nothing wrong. Even the thought of trying to lie but at the same time tell the truth is bizarre. When I lie, I lie boldly. Like if you ask me if I like your shirt and I think it looks like Walt Disney threw up on it but I say it’s nice. I’m lying, I know I’m lying, my purpose of heart is to not hurt your feelings with my opinion of the shirt, I don’t suffer in conscience, and I don’t think that’s the liar who will be thrown into outer darkness or be outside the gates.

poor ole Walt might be offended :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Remember Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Liars are lumped in with murderers. If Rahab was a liar for deceiving the armies of Jericho, then the Israelites were murderers for killing them. That God commanded the Israelites to smite those living in Jericho, and those who did so could do it without being guilty of murder, gives Rahab the same right (by faith) to deceive the same armies (effectively joining the side of Israel), without being guilty of lying. Murder is worse than lying, so to think God can give the Israelites a dispensation for murder without a similar dispensation for lying or deception seems indicative that one has a poor understanding of the difference between the severity of the crimes.

Good observations. It’s nice to meet you. :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

“evil” is a judgement call, and we eat the fruit and decide we can judge
i think

Ah, I get you. Trying to perform with a wrong line of code in the software.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

poor ole Walt might be offended :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's kind of funny (in a sad way) that people think it's okay to slaughter the heathens (as happened in Jericho), but lying to them - that would be crossing the line.

Gnat - camel

The situation in Jericho was warfare. The Israelites were at war with those in Jericho. If God commanded the Israelites to kill those dwelling in Jericho, why would lying to them (to save Israelite lives) be such a terrible sin? Rahab was forced to pick a side, and she chose the right one. She might not have served Israel and God with her sword, but she served Israel and God with her tongue and her wits, and was declared righteous for her act of faith.

 

[Moses_the_younger]

The verse that came to my mind concerning it was the one about leaving behind the useless way of life/former conversation we learned from our parents. That whole…subtlety or…craftiness of trying To say something in such a way as to be able to wipe your mouth and then say, I’ve done nothing wrong. Even the thought of trying to lie but at the same time tell the truth is bizarre. When I lie, I lie boldly. Like if you ask me if I like your shirt and I think it looks like Walt Disney threw up on it but I say it’s nice. I’m lying, I know I’m lying, my purpose of heart is to not hurt your feelings with my opinion of the shirt, I don’t suffer in conscience, and I don’t think that’s the liar who will be thrown into outer darkness or be outside the gates.

Amen! If you're going to lie or use deception (for the right reasons), at least do it honestly! None of this bickering about what the word "is" means, or similar such pathetic attempts to justify what rightly is an act of war just like killing (but often less severe!)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What do you think of this story from 1 Kings 22:19-23?

19 And Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the angels of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one spirit said this, while another said that. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You shall entice him, and you will also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23 Now then, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

Like Mark Twain said, "It ain't the parts of the Bible I don't understand that bother me; it's the parts I do understand."

So God’s Word bothers you?
That means you have a problem with God’s Word and that’s not right.

In the passage you quote, God is not to blame for any lying here because it is the fallen angel who is doing the lying. God gives people over to a strong delusion to believe a lie because they have chosen to reject the truth of God’s word and they prefer lies instead. So God simply gives them what they already want and desire because their abandonment of the truth of God’s Word. Now, if this king desired to truly seek the truth of God and desired to truly want that truth, then such a scenario would not have happened to him. In other words, God knows when a person is fed up with God’s truth and he only prefers to see lies instead. So God simply sends spirits who already lie to do that job. God Himself is not approving of any person or being lying, but God can use deceptive spirits for a greater plan for good that we cannot see. God Himself can never lie and He never encourages anyone to lie. Therein lies the difference and what you fail to understand here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Gotta love this quote. Ranks right up there with "It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it" and "it depends on what the definition of 'is' is".

So what do you think happened at the battle of AI? Did not God use deception as a part of the battle plan?
What about Jesus not revealing who He really was on the road to Emmaus?
Why would Jesus let the Jews walk away misunderstanding what He said about His raising up the temple?
Jesus could have stopped them and explained what He really meant, but He allowed them to believe their own falsehood or wrong thinking. Jesus’ words were not all that clear and they could easily be misunderstood for them to think the wrong thing. Temple is generally understood as the religious temple and yet it can refer to the body. So Jesus it was a form of cryptic response by Jesus and not an open and clear explanation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Job thought God was the giver and taker of life but he also thought it was God who was giving him a hard time......when we know it was the devil who caused his grief.

I would also propose it is the devil who is the taker of life, not God.......and if Jesus is the full revelation of God as the book of Hebrews tells us he is, then this become even clearer. Jesus would rather give his life than take a life.

Jesus' language was clear to those who understood. It was those who didn't understand who needed to flip his words to suit their agenda

No. God is the giver and taker of life. Job was correct.
Read the verses in this following article here:

When someone dies is God always in control their death?

God is in control of all death whether it be from sickness, illness, accident, murder, overdose from drug addiction, etc.

www.neverthirsty.org

(Please keep in mind that I may not agree with everything that this website or author teaches - especially their view on Calvinism).

......and by the way, God never commanded Elijah to do any killing. Elijah did that off his own back and suffered for it. The PTSD he was afflicted with had him running for his life out of fear of the threats of one woman.....Jezebel

Not sure why you are bring this up. I never brought up Elijah killing anyone. You did.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Once again,
James seems to think Rahab did a good work.
25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

And also,
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies [a]in peace.

So you obviously have gone in a different direction to both James and the writer of Hebrews. Two witnesses. One to her faith and the other to her works.

Continue on with your lawyerly obsession. Continue on with your virtue signaling and pious shock at us, James and the writer of Hebrews.

Rahab did do a good work in protecting the spies. But nowhere does James commend Rahab for her lying to the guards which is not mentioned by James. You are somehow inserting that into James statement when that is not the case.

 

[Lambano]

In the passage you quote, God is not to blame for any lying here because it is the fallen angel who is doing the lying.

Oh? If a Mafia boss orders a goon squad to make a hit on one of his rivals, is he innocent of murder just because he didn't get his own hands bloody?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Remember Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Liars are lumped in with murderers. If Rahab was a liar for deceiving the armies of Jericho, then the Israelites were murderers for killing them.

You really don’t understand. Murder is when a person takes life without God’s say so. It is not murder when God commands others to take life by His command. That’s not murder. If you believe otherwise you need to prove God commanding the Israelites to take life is called murder in the Bible. But…. You will not find such a statement. Besides, God is the giver and taker of life and so God can take life. But God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18). So God can never make a human being to lie because it is not in the capacity of God to lie.
The father of lies is the devil (John 8:44). This is what you fail to understand.

That God commanded the Israelites to smite those living in Jericho, and those who did so could do it without being guilty of murder,

No. God never calls this murder In His Word. That’s your own thinking. God also is in control of who lives and dies.
It is murder when we decide to take life without God commanding us to do so. Granted, under the New Testament (or New Covenant), God now commands us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek. So things are different now under the New Covenant.

gives Rahab the same right (by faith) to deceive the same armies (effectively joining the side of Israel), without being guilty of lying.

This is just your own thinking and there is no actual Scripture to support you here.

Murder is worse than lying, so to think God can give the Israelites a dispensation for murder without a similar dispensation for lying or deception seems indicative that one has a poor understanding of the difference between the severity of the crimes.

Taking life is more serious but it is NOT murder when God tells the Israelites to take the life of heathen nations (in battle). If you believe otherwise you need to point out the verse or passage that proves your case.