Did ANYONE In Scripture (Including Jesus), Claim Jesus IS God?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,658
2,625
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
My wife and i have five sons NOT five 'things'
Do you claim that your sons are words? I don't think so.
@CadyandZoe - please review all on here and @Johann is here to help you and me should we go off course on anything
He has chosen to make a defense of the Trinity doctrine. I don't need his help. I have already studied the issue and rejected it.
@CadyandZoe, you said that the Apostle John said the Word that was with God was a 'thing' = this is not true
John doesn't need to say what everyone already knows to be true. The term "logos" refers to "word", "reason", "speech" and "principle." Without the Council of Nicaea, no one would conclude consubstantiation from John chapter one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

MA2444

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
3,840
1,985
113
62
Columbus Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
See. If someone like me, not familiar with Christian Theology, reads the text without presuppositions, my mind goes to the dictionary definition of the word "logos," which is a product of the mind, not a person. That has been my understanding since I was a teenager and I have never changed my mind since.

So is Logos less powerful than the spoken word of God?

Riddle me this, didn't Jesus declare Himself to be God on the Mt. of Transfiguration? Isn't that what that was all about?

AFAIK, the mount of transfiguration was on Mt. Hermon and this is where the fallen angels made their pact to start having hybrid children with the pretty earth girls. So in my eyes, that Mt. Hermon is like a mount of evil or something so that Jesus chose there to do His transfiguration probably held a lot more spiritual significance than doing it just for the 3 disciples. I think He prolly did something not recorded in scripture? He showed Himself to be divine, and God.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,599
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He has chosen to make a defense of the Trinity doctrine. I don't need his help. I have already studied the issue and rejected it.
Well said!

Many trinitarians presume our rejecting the doctrine is because we lack understanding. The opposite is true. We reject the inherently contradictory and contrary to Scripture doctrine because we understand it is inherently contradictory and contrary to Scripture.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CadyandZoe

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you claim that your sons are words? I don't think so.

He has chosen to make a defense of the Trinity doctrine. I don't need his help. I have already studied the issue and rejected it.

John doesn't need to say what everyone already knows to be true. The term "logos" refers to "word", "reason", "speech" and "principle." Without the Council of Nicaea, no one would conclude consubstantiation from John chapter one.
Do you claim that your sons are words?
YES

When i met my wife to be it we Spoke words of life to each other.

This is the Word of Life = LOVE


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Did he? I don't think so. Rather, Paul said that all things are created "in him", indicating that Jesus is the epitome of all other forms and instances of rulership.
Really?

All things (ta panta). The universe as in Rom_11:35, a well-known philosophical phrase. It is repeated at the end of the verse.
In him were created (en autōi ektisthē). Paul now gives the reason (hoti, for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (Col_1:16f.).

It is the constative aorist passive indicative ektisthē (from ktizō, old verb, to found, to create (Rom_1:25). This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in Jhn_1:3; Heb_1:2 and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy.

The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. God wrought through “the Son of his love.” All earthly dignities are included.

Have been created (ektistai). Perfect passive indicative of ktizō, “stand created,” “remain created.” The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe.

Through him (di' autou). As the intermediate and sustaining agent. He had already used en autōi (in him) as the sphere of activity.

And unto him (kai eis auton).
This is the only remaining step to take and Paul takes it (1Co_15:28) See note on Eph_1:10 for similar use of en autōi of Christ and in Col_1:19, Col_1:20 again we have en autōi, di' autou, eis auton used of Christ.

See note on Heb_2:10 for di' hon (because of whom) and di' hou (by means of whom) applied to God concerning the universe (ta panta). In Rom_11:35 we find ex autou kai di' autou kai eis auton ta panta referring to God. But Paul does not use ex in this connection of Christ, but only en, dia, and eis. See the same distinction preserved in 1Co_8:6 (ex of God, dia, of Christ).

Col 1:16 That01 In02 Him03 Is-created04 The05 All06 the((p))07 In08 The09 Heavens10 And11 the((p))12 On13 The14 earth15 The16 visible((p))17 And18 The19 invisible((p))20 whether21 Thrones22 or23 lordships24 or25 sovereignties26 or27 Authorities28 The29 All30 through31 Him32 And33 Into34 Him35 Has-been-created36

Read carefully.
This is a perfect example to make my point. Paul argues that Jesus being a man did not disqualify him from being the Messiah. Thus, the subject of Paul's argument is Jesus-the-man, not a pre-existent second person of a Trinity. Jesus-the-man spoke in the last days. Jesus-the-man is his Son. Jesus-the-man is the one who has been appointed the heir of all things.

Since Jesus-the-man did not exist until he was born to the virgin Mary, then it isn't possible that Paul meant to say that Jesus-the-man played a central role in the creation process. Instead, Paul is saying that Jesus-the-man remained the central focus of God's purpose for History.
Not so fast--
Paul’s Writings Explicitly Affirm Jesus’ Pre-Existence
While Paul emphasizes the humanity of Jesus, he also clearly teaches that Jesus existed before His incarnation. In Colossians 1:16-17, Paul writes, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible... And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

These verses unequivocally place Jesus at the center of creation, not as a mere man but as the pre-existent Son of God. If Jesus existed "before all things," He cannot simply be limited to His human nature.

The Logos in John 1 is Identified as Pre-Existent

The prologue of John’s Gospel states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:1-3).

This identifies the Logos (the Word) as both pre-existent and the agent of creation. John 1:14 confirms that the Logos became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, connecting the pre-existent Word to the man Jesus.

This refutes the idea that Jesus' existence began with His birth to Mary.

Hebrews 1:2-3 Connects the Son to Creation


Hebrews 1:2 states that God "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

The phrase "by whom also he made the worlds" directly attributes creation to the Son. While the Son's incarnation occurred in time, His role as the agent of creation establishes His pre-existence and divinity.

Paul’s Use of "Jesus-the-Man" Complements, Not Contradicts, His Divinity
It’s important to understand that Paul speaks about Jesus’ humanity to emphasize His qualification as the Messiah and His role as the mediator between God and humanity (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."). However, this does not negate His divine nature.

Philippians 2:6-7 states that Jesus, "being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant." This passage affirms that Jesus existed in the "form of God" before humbling Himself in the Incarnation.

A Misreading of "God’s Purpose"
While it’s true that Jesus is central to God’s redemptive purpose in history, Paul repeatedly describes Jesus not merely as the focus of God's plan but as the one through whom God accomplishes His will. Ephesians 1:10-11 speaks of God’s plan to "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." This language highlights Jesus as both the central figure of history and the one through whom all creation is unified, affirming both His humanity and divinity.

The Virgin Birth Does Not Preclude Pre-Existence
Your argument that Jesus-the-man "did not exist until He was born" conflates His human nature with His divine nature. The doctrine of the Incarnation teaches that Jesus took on human flesh in the womb of Mary but does not suggest this is the beginning of His existence. John 8:58 records Jesus saying, "Before Abraham was, I am," a direct claim to pre-existence and divinity, echoing the divine name revealed in Exodus 3:14.

Conclusion:
Your assertion that Paul focuses only on "Jesus-the-man" to exclude His pre-existence misrepresents Paul’s theology. Paul, along with the rest of the New Testament, consistently teaches that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully divine-the Son of God who became incarnate to fulfill God’s redemptive purposes.

Limiting Jesus to His humanity ignores the full scope of Scripture and diminishes the profound mystery of the Incarnation.

Do you acknowledge this?

In my view, John is talking about the promise (logos) of God, which became flesh and dwelt among us.
Jesus Christ is a person who could be touched and handled by the throngs-a Man that was crucified, died, buried and resurrected-so how can THIS Messiah be a "plan?" Why can't you see that Yeshua preexisted and was active in creation along WITH the Father and the Ruach?

@CadyandZoe?

J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you claim that your sons are words? I don't think so.

He has chosen to make a defense of the Trinity doctrine. I don't need his help. I have already studied the issue and rejected it.

John doesn't need to say what everyone already knows to be true. The term "logos" refers to "word", "reason", "speech" and "principle." Without the Council of Nicaea, no one would conclude consubstantiation from John chapter one.
Without the Council of Nicaea, no one would conclude consubstantiation from John chapter one.
#1 - i NEVER heard of the "council of Nicea" until i became a member on here about three or four years ago.

#2 - The Lord Jesus Christ SAVED me 40 Years ago and thru the Holy Spirit i immediately understood the Word is a PERSON

#3 - If we reject "It is written" and make excuses that are our 'thoughts' from unbelief we lie against the TRUTH

The Apostle John, whose words you reject, says: "no lie is of the truth"
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,658
2,625
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So is Logos less powerful than the spoken word of God?
No, just the opposite. The spoken word of God never fails to come true. God's predictions always come true. God's promises are always fulfilled.


Riddle me this, didn't Jesus declare Himself to be God on the Mt. of Transfiguration? Isn't that what that was all about?
The main message communicated at the Transfiguration is this. If one believes Moses and Elijah, then one should also believe Jesus. This is an argument from the lessor to the greater. If the testimony of Moses and Elisha is true, and it is, then the testimony of Jesus is even more sure because Jesus' testimony is greater.

On an aside, I also believe that God glorified Jesus in the presence of Moses and Elijah in order to lift Jesus' spirit, to encourage him and help him in his fortitude because he was about to go to the cross. Jesus was given a vision of the future to help him endure the present and coming suffering.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MA2444

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,658
2,625
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well said!

Many trinitarians presume our rejecting the doctrine is because we lack understanding. The opposite is true. We reject the inherently contradictory and contrary to Scripture doctrine because we understand it is inherently contradictory and contrary to Scripture.
Back at ya! :)
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,658
2,625
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
YES

When i met my wife to be it we Spoke words of life to each other.
Okay, Good example in my opinion. Thanks.

You made a marriage vow, a word of promise to love each other. Then your promise to each other became two boys, yes? The Boys are not the promise; they are the manifestation of your promise of love.

John is saying that God made a promise of Love, and that promise became manifest in Jesus. Just as your boys are your marriage vows made flesh, Jesus is God's promise made flesh.
 
  • Love
Reactions: David in NJ

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,658
2,625
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
#1 - i NEVER heard of the "council of Nicea" until i became a member on here about three or four years ago.
What did you learn about the Council? Why was it convened and under whose authority?
#2 - The Lord Jesus Christ SAVED me 40 Years ago and thru the Holy Spirit i immediately understood the Word is a PERSON.
Praise the Lord. I am happy for you and praise Jesus.
#3 - If we reject "It is written" and make excuses that are our 'thoughts' from unbelief we lie against the TRUTH
Okay, I see your point. But what if I am rejecting a syncretism?
The Apostle John, whose words you reject, says: "no lie is of the truth"
I am not rejecting the Apostle John am I? I am rejecting the erroneous philosophical injection of poison into the arm of the church.

From my point of view, of course. :)
 
J

Johann

Guest
John is saying that an idea in God's head -- living among Israel and ruling over the nations -- was translated into our reality through the medium of a human life. Jesus is the fulfillment of God's promise to "tabernacle" among his people.
The pre-existent Son of YHWH was WITH the Father--this was NO plan or promise or an "It" @CadyandZoe.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (N1Christ), and the Word was with God, and N2the Word was God Himself. [Gen_1:1; Isa_9:6]
Joh 1:2 He was [continually existing] in the beginning [co-eternally] with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3 Everything existed through His hands, and without Him, not even one thing existed of the things, which have existed.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men;
Joh 1:5 and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
Joh 1:5 And the Ohr shines in the choshech [TEHILLIM 18:28], and the choshech did not grasp it. [YESHAYAH 9:1]

Joh 1:1 In Ἐν [the] beginning ἀρχῇ was ἦν the ὁ Word, Λόγος, and καὶ the ὁ Word Λόγος was ἦν with πρὸς - τὸν God, Θεόν, and καὶ the ὁ Word Λόγος. was ἦν God. Θεὸς
Joh 1:2 He Οὗτος was ἦν with πρὸς - τὸν God Θεόν. in ἐν [the] beginning. ἀρχῇ
Joh 1:3 Through δι’ Him αὐτοῦ all things πάντα were made, ἐγένετο, and καὶ without χωρὶς Him αὐτοῦ nothing οὐδὲ . . . ἕν was made ἐγένετο that ὃ has been made. γέγονεν.
Joh 1:4 In ἐν Him αὐτῷ was ἦν, life, ζωὴ and καὶ [that] ἡ life ζωὴ was ἦν the τὸ light φῶς - τῶν of men. ἀνθρώπων.
Joh 1:5 - καὶ The τὸ Light φῶς shines φαίνει, in ἐν the τῇ darkness, σκοτίᾳ and καὶ the ἡ darkness σκοτία {has} not οὐ overcome κατέλαβεν. it. αὐτὸ

J.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
7,658
2,625
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The pre-existent Son of YHWH was WITH the Father--this was NO plan or promise or an "It" @CadyandZoe.
The term "with" in this context does not convey the idea of location, as if the first person of the Trinity had coffee with the Second person of the Trinity. The term "with" conveys the idea of origin or source. The promise is "with" God in the sense that he has taken personal responsibility and agency for making it happen. For a promise to be "with" God, the promise finds surety in the power and faithfulness of God.
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Johann @amigo de christo @Taken @MA2444

Look at this

His covenant,
בְּרִית֗וֹ (bə·rî·ṯōw)
Noun - feminine singular construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1285: 1) covenant, alliance, pledge 1a) between men 1a1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man) 1a2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects) 1a3) agreement, pledge (man to man) 1a4) alliance (of friendship) 1a5) alliance (of marriage) 1b) between God and man 1b1) alliance (of friendship) 1b2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges) 2) (phrases) 2a) covenant making 2b) covenant keeping 2c) covenant violation

the Ten
עֲשֶׂ֖רֶת (‘ă·śe·reṯ)
Number - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 6235: 1) ten 1a) ten 1b) with other numbers

Commandments
הַדְּבָרִ֑ים (had·də·ḇā·rîm)
Article | Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 1697: 1) speech, word, speaking, thing 1a) speech 1b) saying, utterance 1c) word, words 1d) business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

This guarantees us the Truth of Who MESSIAH is = HE is the LAW of GOD = The Law-Keeper for us

YAHshua says: IAM the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE
If you love me, keep MY commandments.

This is another of many declarations of JESUS declaring Himself as Elohim with His FATHER
 
J

Johann

Guest
@Johann @amigo de christo @Taken @MA2444

Look at this

His covenant,
בְּרִית֗וֹ (bə·rî·ṯōw)
Noun - feminine singular construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1285: 1) covenant, alliance, pledge 1a) between men 1a1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man) 1a2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects) 1a3) agreement, pledge (man to man) 1a4) alliance (of friendship) 1a5) alliance (of marriage) 1b) between God and man 1b1) alliance (of friendship) 1b2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges) 2) (phrases) 2a) covenant making 2b) covenant keeping 2c) covenant violation

the Ten
עֲשֶׂ֖רֶת (‘ă·śe·reṯ)
Number - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 6235: 1) ten 1a) ten 1b) with other numbers

Commandments
הַדְּבָרִ֑ים (had·də·ḇā·rîm)
Article | Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 1697: 1) speech, word, speaking, thing 1a) speech 1b) saying, utterance 1c) word, words 1d) business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

This guarantees us the Truth of Who MESSIAH is = HE is the LAW of GOD = The Law-Keeper for us

YAHshua says: IAM the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE
If you love me, keep MY commandments.

This is another of many declarations of JESUS declaring Himself as Elohim with His FATHER
Plain as daylight-

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

J.
 
  • Love
Reactions: David in NJ

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay, Good example in my opinion. Thanks.

You made a marriage vow, a word of promise to love each other. Then your promise to each other became two boys, yes? The Boys are not the promise; they are the manifestation of your promise of love.

John is saying that God made a promise of Love, and that promise became manifest in Jesus. Just as your boys are your marriage vows made flesh, Jesus is God's promise made flesh.
AWESOME and Thank You - AGREE

After Elohim created the earth and animals HE then made a Man and a Woman = First MARRIAGE
a Marriage made in Heaven = "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

Ephesians 5:25-32
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

SHALOM
 

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Plain as daylight-

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

J.
How about this to your statement - Plain as the 7th DAY of LIGHT
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

David in NJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2021
11,796
6,232
113
49
Denville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What did you learn about the Council? Why was it convened and under whose authority?

Praise the Lord. I am happy for you and praise Jesus.

Okay, I see your point. But what if I am rejecting a syncretism?

I am not rejecting the Apostle John am I? I am rejecting the erroneous philosophical injection of poison into the arm of the church.

From my point of view, of course. :)
This is the declaration of John that you disagree with(per your words = which is what i am going by)

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. - 1John 1:1-4
 
J

Johann

Guest
The term "with" in this context does not convey the idea of location, as if the first person of the Trinity had coffee with the Second person of the Trinity. The term "with" conveys the idea of origin or source. The promise is "with" God in the sense that he has taken personal responsibility and agency for making it happen. For a promise to be "with" God, the promise finds surety in the power and faithfulness of God.
This is incorrect-

The Greek Term "With" in John 1:1 (πρός)
The word translated as "with" in John 1:1 (πρός) does not primarily denote origin or source but instead conveys the idea of relationship, proximity, or interaction.

πρός often implies a face-to-face relationship, as seen in other New Testament contexts (e.g., Mark 6:3: "Are not his sisters here with us [πρός]?").

It suggests a dynamic and relational existence, not merely an abstract concept like a promise being "with" God.

If John had intended to emphasize origin or source, he might have used a preposition like ἐκ (out of) or παρά (from), which explicitly convey origin.

The Context of John 1:1 Emphasizes Personal Relationship
John 1:1 reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The repetition and structure of this verse point to the pre-existence of the Logos and its distinct yet intimate relationship with God. The use of πρός τὸν Θεόν (with God) emphasizes relational closeness, not merely the possession of a promise or plan.

This distinction is critical: John is describing a divine person (the Word), not an abstract idea like a promise or purpose.

Very important @CadyandZoe-why can't you see it?


Promises Are Not Typically Described as "With" God


While God’s promises are certain and find their fulfillment in His faithfulness, Scripture does not use language like "with God" to describe them. Promises are typically attributed to God’s word or covenant (e.g., Psalm 119:89: "Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.").

The notion that "with God" refers to a promise imposes an interpretation not supported by the broader biblical lexicon or usage.

The Immediate Context Identifies the Logos as a Person


In John 1:14, the Logos is clearly identified as a person: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Abstract promises or plans do not "become flesh"; only a person can.
See where you are going wrong @CadyandZoe?

The text goes on to describe this person as the "only begotten Son" (John 1:18), affirming the personal nature of the Logos. This understanding is consistent throughout John’s Gospel, where Jesus is portrayed as the pre-existent Son who shares a unique relationship with the Father (e.g., John 17:5).

Theological Consistency with Other Passages

The claim that "with" refers to origin or source undermines other key passages that affirm the pre-existence and distinct personhood of Christ.

For instance, Colossians 1:16-17 states that "all things were created by Him and for Him," affirming Christ’s role as the agent of creation.

Similarly, Philippians 2:6 speaks of Christ existing "in the form of God" before His incarnation.

These passages align with John’s description of the Logos as both "with God" and "God," signifying personal existence, not merely an abstract quality or promise.

Grammatical Misapplication of "With"
The assertion that "with" refers to origin or source imposes a meaning inconsistent with the grammatical and contextual use of πρός. The preposition conveys relational proximity, as seen in John 1:2 ("The same was in the beginning with God"), where it reaffirms the relational and coexistent nature of the Logos.

Abstract concepts like promises or plans do not share this kind of relational proximity.

Conclusion:
The interpretation that "with" in John 1:1 refers to a promise or purpose lacks linguistic and contextual support. The term πρός clearly emphasizes the personal, relational nature of the Logos with God, aligning with the consistent portrayal of Jesus as the eternal Son of God throughout Scripture. This understanding preserves both the personal identity of the Logos and the theological integrity of the passage.

Can you see it now @CadyandZoe?

J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks