DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?

[face2face]

Here are some verses which speak of a universal resurrection as being nonscriptural

Only those responsible (incl. accountable) to judgement will be raised from the dead.

Dan 12:2 - "Many (but not all) of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.

Isa 26:14 - "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed and made all
their memory to perish."

Isa 43:17 - "Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise; they are
extinct, they are quenched as tow."

Ps.49:19-20 - "He (mgn. the soul) shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. Man that is in honour and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish."

1 Cor. 15:35-54 supports all of the above in one succinct section.

OT & NT shaking hands in agreement.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

What's missing is a Biblical reality which both you & St.SteVen avoid...I get it...you want to over emphasize His Goodness and undervalue His Severity.

It's a mistake.

I want to highlight that Jesus brought clarity or shall I say perspective to the various alarming things stated in the Law and the Prophets.
To the guys on the road to Emmaus he didn't labour their foolishness in lack of understanding but showed them in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms the things concerning himself.
I have yet to meet many who can show me the things Jesus showed Cleopas and his mate.....of which they said afterwards, 'made their hearts burn'. Luke 24:13-35

 

[face2face]

Part 1.

After watching this video, I was confronted with a number of things that are hard to say/hear, but I think its an all to common reality in a post christian world.

I've gone through a period of deconstruction where I challenged all my beliefs; I refer to it as my "wilderness experience", where I tapped out and went into hiding for about 18 months while I sought to "prove all things", again! The difference between this woman's experience and mine, is I was cognitive of what I was doing and why, whereas this person’s experience was accumulative and eroding. Step by step, her faith was being eaten away by doubt, to the point she came to the realization she no longer believed. You will notice how she says "University - Psychology and Theology and then her experience in Cambodia and the atrocities there were cause for her to question! Here she was being encouraged to sit in judgement of God; questioning His involvement in humanity and drawing to her own conclusions (humanism at work). You will note in these early stages nowhere is it mentioned she turned to the Word of God for answers; rather she allowed Phd's and her self deceiving eyes to form the basis of her exiting Acts 4:12 a reality which she is yet to own.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I want to highlight that Jesus brought clarity or shall I say perspective to the various alarming things stated in the Law and the Prophets.
To the guys on the road to Emmaus he didn't labour their foolishness in lack of understanding but showed them in the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms the things concerning himself.
I have yet to meet many who can show me the things Jesus showed Cleopas and his mate.....of which they said afterwards, 'made their hearts burn'. Luke 24:13-35

Heart "set on fire"

So I remained utterly silent, not even saying anything good. But my anguish increased; 3 my heart grew hot within me. While I meditated, the fire burned; then I spoke with my tongue:

AND

But if I say, “I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.

No one knows for sure but one things is certain - he would have shown them how he fullfilled the Law and the Prophets perfectly.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

No one knows for sure but one things is certain - he would have shown them how he fullfilled the Law and the Prophets perfectly.

Don't you think Paul knew or the other Apostles? ....for instance, Cleopas and his mate? Don't you think it would be an error to project your own lack of knowledge onto God's chosen heralds?
Don't you think it is a worthy aspiration to be able to lay out the scripture in the same way? However, one thing is certain, one cannot and neither is there the desire to when one's primary focus is other things......even scriptural things. What comes to mind are not only the generations of professional religious teachers through history who missed the point but those in his closest confidence....till after the resurrection.

 

[face2face]

Don't you think Paul knew or the other Apostles? ....for instance, Clops and his mate? Don't you think it would be an error to project your own lack of knowledge onto God's chosen heralds?
Don't you think it is a worthy aspiration to be able to lay out the scripture in the same way? However, one thing is certain, one cannot and neither is there the desire to when one's primary focus is other things......even scriptural things. What comes to mind are not only the generations of professional religious teachers through history who missed the point but those in his closest confidence....till after the resurrection.

It would be in the same spirit as Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch.

He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

Can you work out why the Eunuch was so intrigued with Christ?

What was the hook!

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

It would be in the same spirit as Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch.

He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

Can you work out why the Eunuch was so intrigued with Christ?

What was the hook!

F2F

The Eunuch (poor bloke, I've read about Eunuchs) it appears he was a heart searcher. The Spirit is extraordinarily active when Jesus is presented. It has the effect of drawing people just like Cleopas and his mate or finding them in a flap trying to find an alternative explanation.

 

[face2face]

The Eunuch (poor bloke, I've read about Eunuchs) it appears he was a heart searcher. The Spirit is extraordinarily active when Jesus is presented. It has the effect of drawing people just like Cleopas and his mate or finding them in a flap trying to find an alternative explanation.

Who can describe his generation?
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Who can describe his generation?
F2F

yes, his reality.....who can?

 

[St. SteVen]

It's called evidence. When its shown and not refuted, but ignored, you lose credibility in the discussion, which is where you are at.

I seem unconcerned about meeting your personal standard of "credibility".

But we are seeing a trend with your posts which questions your integrity, that is more concerning at present than your views on God's approach toward His enemies.

Why would you waste your time on someone you consider to be of questionable integrity?
I'm also unconcerned about meeting your personal standard of "integrity".

 

[face2face]

I seem unconcerned about meeting your personal standard of "credibility".


Why would you waste your time on someone you consider to be of questionable integrity?
I'm also unconcerned about meeting your personal standard of "integrity".

"Pretty sure"..."not sure"...and now "unconcerned"...trending well there St.
You are right though, in the grand scheme of things it matters not that your responses have been underwhelming. All you can do is bring these things to your attention and what you choose to do with it is your business. It's noted you have ceased from posting Scripture and asking questions, or making rash inferences...so maybe something has gotten through?
F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

Part 1.

More to come?

After watching this video, I was confronted with a number of things that are hard to say/hear, but I think its an all to common reality in a post christian world.

Glad to see you finally back on topic. Thanks.

I've gone through a period of deconstruction where I challenged all my beliefs; I refer to it as my "wilderness experience", where I tapped out and went into hiding for about 18 months while I sought to "prove all things", again! The difference between this woman's experience and mine, is I was cognitive of what I was doing and why, whereas this person’s experience was accumulative and eroding. Step by step, her faith was being eaten away by doubt, to the point she came to the realization she no longer believed. You will notice how she says "University - Psychology and Theology and then her experience in Cambodia and the atrocities there were cause for her to question! Here she was being encouraged to sit in judgement of God; questioning His involvement in humanity and drawing to her own conclusions (humanism at work). You will note in these early stages nowhere is it mentioned she turned to the Word of God for answers; rather she allowed Phd's and her self deceiving eyes to form the basis of her exiting Acts 4:12 a reality which she is yet to own.

Perhaps Christianity is BIGGER than evangelicalism alone?

If I were born in a Muslim country and went through a deconstruction, immersing myself in the Quran,
what do you suppose I would conclude at the end of that search? Would it confirm, or deny Islam?
Might my conclusions differ if I sought some outside information? (of course)

So you went through your deconstruction and came out the other end concluding that everything checked out?
You didn't discover anything to leave behind? That seems rather myopic to me. (nearsighted)

And the hell doctrine was still fully intact? Including predestination? The Elect?

If you believe in election, it works both ways.
If God predestined only SOME to life, then he also predestined the vast MAJORITY to destruction.
If the narrow gate (few who find it) is about salvation, then God is making sport of our eternal destination.
Solve the puzzle and you are in. Otherwise you lose BIG time. Too bad for you. Better luck next time.
Oh wait... there won't be a next time. Ha ha ha... (sinister laugh)

 

[St. SteVen]

It's noted you have ceased from posting Scripture and asking questions, or making rash inferences...so maybe something has gotten through?

Quoting scripture has done little good for you.
You are stuck on your own interpretation of things. So be it.

The Bible has a definite damnationist bias in the translation. See the mistranslation of aionios below.
Kind of like me trying to defend creationism using the writings of Darwin.


Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[face2face]

More to come?

Yes

Glad to see you finally back on topic. Thanks.

No problem

Perhaps Christianity is BIGGER than evangelicalism alone?

Absolutely!

If I were born in a Muslim country and went through a deconstruction, immersing myself in the Quran,
what do you suppose I would conclude at the end of that search? Would it confirm, or deny Islam?
Might my conclusions differ if I sought some outside information? (of course)

Are you inside the cultural bubble, or outside?

So you went through your deconstruction and came out the other end concluding that everything checked out?
You didn't discover anything to leave behind? That seems rather myopic to me. (nearsighted)

Yes, my entire view of Genesis 1-11 was altered among other sections of Scripture.

And the hell doctrine was still fully intact? Including predestination? The Elect?

I dont believe in a literal Hell Fire - hell is simply the grave.

If you believe in election, it works both ways.
If God predestined only SOME to life, then he also predestined the vast MAJORITY to destruction.

Correct - its called the cost of creation.

If the narrow gate (few who find it) is about salvation, then God is making sport of our eternal destination.

Not sport - He is providing a choice based on free will.

Solve the puzzle and you are in. Otherwise you lose BIG time. Too bad for you. Better luck next time.
Oh wait... there won't be a next time. Ha ha ha... (sinister laugh)

True, no second chances - make the first one count!
F2F

 

[face2face]

Quoting scripture has done little good for you.

On the contrary its provided suffecient wisdom that leads a person to salvation.

and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You either believe it can, or not?

You say no?

You are stuck on your own interpretation of things. So be it.

Not stuck - when you discover proven truth you form a conviction, something you are grappling with at the moment. From your posts your conviction is unclear, questionable - maybe you are still searching for truth?

The Bible has a definite damnationist bias in the translation. See the mistranslation of aionios below.
Kind of like me trying to defend creationism using the writings of Darwin.

Yes, the KJV was good for it's time, but I no longer use it as a reading and study Bible.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Regardless of the translation, I believe the true wisdom of these verses can be sought and obtained.

If you could take scissors to the Bible how much of it would be left?

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, my entire view of Genesis 1-11 was altered among other sections of Scripture.

Literal, or figurative?

I dont believe in a literal Hell Fire - hell is simply the grave.

Now we are getting somewhere.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Correct - its called the cost of creation.

Sounds criminal. Genocide plan.
Was Adam created for a suicide mission?

Not sport - He is providing a choice based on free will.

Genocide plan, not sport?
Free will is a fallacy. Can anyone come unless they are drawn?

True, no second chances - make the first one count!

Assuming everyone HAD "a chance". (nope)
BTW: UR isn't a "second chance". Nothing is left to chance.

 

[face2face]

Literal, or figurative?

Figurative with a few disclaimers (not dogmatic)

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

The Bible is extremely clear on the state of the dead - dead is dead!

Sounds criminal. Genocide plan.

Not everyone will fit into Hebrews 11:6

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Not all will come to Him
Not all will believe He exists
Not all will earnestly seek Him

I'm sure someone of your intelligence can connect the dots!

Was Adam created for a suicide mission?

No he was covered with an animal skin after his sin (the example of Christ) and made offerings to the Lord until he returned to the soil from where he was taken.

Genocide plan, not sport?
Free will is a fallacy. Can anyone come unless they are drawn?

Everything is a fallacy if you dont believe!

Assuming everyone HAD "a chance". (nope)
BTW: UR isn't a "second chance". Nothing is left to chance.

Correct! Many called and few are chosen - its a reality many Christians find difficult to comprehend and those that do, never comprehend it!


If you were shown to be one of His, who make up those in Malachi 3:17 what would you think?
Unworthy?
Why me?
What did I do that many didn’t?

Here is the issue - (look for the free will thing you don’t believe in!)

Now IF you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine Exo 19:5;

For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. Deu 7:6;

Same goes for Deut 14:2; Deut 26:18; 1 Ch 29:3; Psa 135:4 and so.

Imagine you have been saved now and your knowledge of God has been fully revealed and you now understand why He choose you, and not your spouse? He was able to show you your heart favoured the things of His Heart, but your spouse, not so.

Would you see this as criminal? Or is Him in obtaining you also had to consider losing your spouse who denied and rejected Him during their life.

So you are now His Treasure; enlightened to the way He works in His own creation and you no longer question His motives because "all things" have now been shown you.

You accept graciously His gift and any sorrow of knowing those you loved in this life who didn’t show themselves to be His has been removed and now you live for eternity.

Humanism would love to have you think everyone can be saved, but the cost of creation reveals the Cain's and all those unrepentant murderers, dogs, wordmongers etc are all without the gate, and left to their own devices, until death is swallowed up and the Earth is filled with His Glory, whatever that looks like.

You can sit in judgement of His Masterplan; call it criminal etc but ultimately His Plan will happen regardless of what you think.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@St. SteVen In the Spirit of Malachi 3:17 you have God Almighty who is the Great King, now you can resist His Kingship (and vision for His Kingdom), if you want, or accept its knowing the entire universe belongs to Him, and all men & women and all that they think they have -- it is all His! As its said, the cattle on a thousand hills belong to Him!

Has such a powerful being chosen to condescend to choose a special few of all His subjects to be His own family, His own special possession, His own cherished riches?

How does that make you feel?
If you disapprove...by what authority do you do so?
You disapprove of my view of your credibility - Does God have the authority to treat you in the same way?

Paul clearly states the calling of the Gentiles was to incite jealously in the Jews who lost their grasp on the promises of God. These few special possessions have given all to love the King and Creator. They stay close to His person & character and they rest in His bosom and find sanctuary and safety...in the morning they have His Words whispering in their ears and learn to trust in his devotion and unique love.

How does he view these few amongst so many?

More precious than the stars of heaven? What if you discovered they were a priceless treasure? They are the few ones (comparatively speaking) who He redeemed with the precious blood of His dear Son.

His treasures know the future judgement is not to condemn with the rest of the world, but to save.

When your head hits the pillow this evening you try to imagine being that treasure and wonder, what the eye has not seen nor ear heard, nor entered the heart of men what God has prepared for them that love Him.

Your attitude is not condemning of His plan now... but one of gratitude and praise.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The King declares:

To whom shall I speak and give warning That they may hear? Behold, their ears are closed And they cannot listen. Behold, the word of the Lord has become a reproach to them; They have no delight (or pleasure) in it.

Whoever these people are...they are the cost of Creation.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Did God kill Judas? I think he chose his path for his own reasons. They resulted in disaster.
Peter was on a similar brink. He went back to fishing. It might have ended badly.
Paul has his story, you have yours, I have mine.

I have learned that those who have come to love Jesus also have many shortcomings in their conclusions and behaviour. God forbid that I should join the ranks of the accusing....rightly or wrongly; the ranks of those who feel they know more about another's reality than the other does....although often sorely tempted.