DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?

[MatthewG]

Everything should be challenged...

The only thing that one can do really - is stop having faith.

Faith in the first step.
Growing and maturing in learning about God and Jesus, is spiritual banking in reality - you spiritually store treasures in heaven - which you will be given a spiritual resurrected body to live with God who is Spirit in the heavenly Realm.



All traditions, all things people teach... everything has to be looked at and gone through, cause not everything a person may say or teach is write, or even building or adding to your faith as you are responsible for yourself in these matters.

The bible is the material to use - but also you have to realize they are not even perfect, but there is many things that are from as close as the original one can get off the copies... in my opinion.

 

[St. SteVen]

So you have heard it said many times "all" is not the "all" you are implying.

Yes, I'm very familiar with the standard rebuttal.
What about the "Just as" and the "so also"? Meaning: IN THE SAME WAY.
And what does it then mean to be "in Adam"?

A friend of mine explained it this way.

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Take verse 19 which provides you context

19 If only for this life WE have hope in Christ, WE are of all people most to be pitied.

Who are the WE being referenced?
Who is exempt?

Obviously the Apostle hopes there is an afterlife.

 

[face2face]

I don't believe in a dual nature God.

Neither do I.

Never know if he will come with a hug or a flame-thrower. Yikes!
No wonder people are afraid of him.

Fear is the beginning of wisdom - the OT model of drawing close to God is the same in the NT!

Similar to universal salvation. Purge the dross, cleanse them.

Many will be lost in the purging.

Not sure you can drag the OT view of God into the NT.

Same God! One must work through the varying nuances of OT language; but be assured He has not changed.

Could be a change in dispensation or a complete misunderstanding on the part of the ancients.

I dont believe so.

The front cover of our Bibles reads: HOLY BIBLE.
I want to slap a big label over that which reads:
Here's what we think happened.

Video of Peter Enns. Author of The Bible Tells Me so...

I wont comment on the attachment until I have 1 hour 17 min to watch it - but thanks for the link.

F2F

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Not all are in Christ, and those who are not, are not made alive.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The front cover of our Bibles reads: HOLY BIBLE.
I want to slap a big label over that which reads:
Here's what we think happened.

Thank you for your clarity!

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

Not all are in Christ, and those who are not, are not made alive.

Much love!

How is it you see that all are not in Christ?

 

[face2face]

Yes, I'm very familiar with the standard rebuttal.
What about the "Just as" and the "so also"? Meaning: IN THE SAME WAY.
And what does it then mean to be "in Adam"?

A friend of mine explained it this way.

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

I can see how you are driving at that "in Adam" but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the chapter precisely about the destination of the Wisdom and Spirit of God in those who take possession of it?

Here's the issue - everyone regardless of whether they want to be or not, are in Adam - even Christ was in Adam (he is called the Last Adam!) - the point Paul is making is not everyone qualifies for taking part in verse 10:

these are the things God has revealed to US by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 1 Cor 2:10

This refers to only those "being saved" not those humans who have no interest in the things of God.
Unless you held the belief that salvation was possible without having "responsible knowledge" (which might be the case )
You can't force all mankind being saved in Pauls use of "in Adam".

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


Obviously the Apostle hopes there is an afterlife.

Correct - he believed in the resurrection "being raised to newness of life" just as his Lord.

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

1 Corinthians 15:22 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

This verse plainly does not say what you assert. This is not a statement of universal salvation, it is a statement of absolute efficacy. All in Adam, and All in Christ, not just "all".

Interesting that you have to change to word order to make it work for you.
The verse says "in Adam all... in Christ all..."
You say, "All in Adam, and All in Christ..."

 

[marks]

How is it you see that all are not in Christ?

How do you define "in Christ"?

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

@face2face and @marks
Let's try another one. Same message really. (from my perspective anyway)

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 15:22 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Interesting that you have to change to word order to make it work for you.
The verse says "in Adam all... in Christ all..."
You say, "All in Adam, and All in Christ..."

1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Was God in Adam, that He died? No. Was Michael the Archangel in Adam, so that he likewise died? No. Only those who were in Adam - that is, humanity - died. Those in Adam. Not every existing being, only those in Adam.

And in the same way, only those in Christ are made alive.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

How do you define "in Christ"?

Much love!

'In Christ' in the context Paul is referring, is as being representative of the human race, just as Adam was.

 

[marks]

'In Christ' in the context Paul is referring, is as being representative of the human race, just as Adam was.

"In Christ" has a special meaning in the Bible. Here's one example.

If any be in Christ, they are a new creation, the old is passed away, all is new, and now all is from God. Are all men new creations?

Much love!

 

[marks]

'In Christ' in the context Paul is referring, is as being representative of the human race, just as Adam was.

Adam does not "represent" the race. When God created Adam, God created Humanity. He made one man, and in that man was all the men who would come from him.

Think along the lines of, Levi was in the loins of Abraham paying tithes to Melchizedek. Adam was the race of Humanity. We were all in Adam. And when we come to faith, and God gives us rebirth, we are moved out of Adam, into Christ.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

And in the same way, only those in Christ are made alive.

No.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

 

[face2face]

@face2face and @marks
Let's try another one. Same message really. (from my perspective anyway)

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Can you see your issue there?

 

[marks]

those who belong to him.

 

[face2face]

No.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

"Those who belong to him...."

Unfortunately St. SteVen you will continue to keep coming up against the qualifier.

Only the responsible are judged and saved/rejected.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@marks lol we gave the same response!

It must be true then right

 

[face2face]

@face2face and @marks
Let's try another one. Same message really. (from my perspective anyway)

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I don't say this to be condescending, but when you post a Scripture do you really think about what is being conveyed? - or do you approach it with your own ideas of what you think it means?

Verse 19 is super clear, that not all obey the one man and not all will be made righteous and be saved.

It might be a comprehension issue - not ,sure but from where I sit its super clear!

F2F