Daniel`s 70 Weeks.

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman777,

I am not here to discuss historic or contemporary positions - Jesuit errors, Jehovah`s Witnesses, etc but to discuss scripture. If you want to do that then I am here.

God bless, Marilyn.

Marilyn,
Fair enough, for the eschatological views of the Reformers are still as Biblically sound today as they were in the 16th century. I'm curious as to whether your belief in 444 B.C. has any other basis other than Artaxerxes' words to Nehemiah and Christ the "commander".
God bless u2, Phoneman

 

[Wormwood]

I don`t think you quite understand when I say `Christ is the centre of God`s word.` I don`t just mean it is telling of His manifestation or a letter to early Christians, those are still in the historic context, (which is important). However for Christ to be the centre then those parts need to be also seen in relationship to God`s overall purposes, otherwise they are just interesting bits of information.

Marilyn.

Marilyn,

Yes, I agree with you. This is why I view apocalyptic literature the way that I do. Not only does it speak to the author's actual intent historically, but it gives us powerful applications for every age. For instance, the two beasts in Revelation point primarily to the Roman government and the Cult of the Emperor that existed in John's day. The Dragon (Satan) was using the government of Rome to persecute believers and provide false security for its citizens as their Savior and the false religion of Rome was calling people to worship the emperor and burn incense to him as a god. These two powers were mere puppets being used by the dragon to call people to compromise and to create suffering and havoc in the lives of true believers.

Yet, this shows us how the dragon works in the world. He is still at work using governments and false religion to persecute and lead people astray. Just look at North Korea where Christians are killed by the government and people are forced to worship the dictator as a god. Or look at how Communism was used as a government to persecute Christians and to try to eliminate true worship in order to get people to embrace the ideology of the regime. We can even say the same is happening in America where secularism is taking hold and people are viewed as martyrs for dying for the State and our morality, songs, and "allegiance" is being called under the banner of a flag and "democracy." Meanwhile, being faithful to Jesus is viewed as intolerant and contrary to cultural progress.

The point is this: The dragon is still at work. He is still using his puppets: governments and the false religions of those governments to cause people to compromise their faith and serve human institutions. To look at the first beast and say its "the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation" is just so far removed from what John is saying and basically makes the text meaningless to Christians for 2000+ years. No, the text has had great meaning for early Christians and throughout history which continues to this day. I hope that makes more sense.

 

[Phoneman777]

Marilyn,

Yes, I agree with you. This is why I view apocalyptic literature the way that I do. Not only does it speak to the author's actual intent historically, but it gives us powerful applications for every age. For instance, the two beasts in Revelation point primarily to the Roman government and the Cult of the Emperor that existed in John's day. The Dragon (Satan) was using the government of Rome to persecute believers and provide false security for its citizens as their Savior and the false religion of Rome was calling people to worship the emperor and burn incense to him as a god. These two powers were mere puppets being used by the dragon to call people to compromise and to create suffering and havoc in the lives of true believers.

Yet, this shows us how the dragon works in the world. He is still at work using governments and false religion to persecute and lead people astray. Just look at North Korea where Christians are killed by the government and people are forced to worship the dictator as a god. Or look at how Communism was used as a government to persecute Christians and to try to eliminate true worship in order to get people to embrace the ideology of the regime. We can even say the same is happening in America where secularism is taking hold and people are viewed as martyrs for dying for the State and our morality, songs, and "allegiance" is being called under the banner of a flag and "democracy." Meanwhile, being faithful to Jesus is viewed as intolerant and contrary to cultural progress.

The point is this: The dragon is still at work. He is still using his puppets: governments and the false religions of those governments to cause people to compromise their faith and serve human institutions. To look at the first beast and say its "the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation" is just so far removed from what John is saying and basically makes the text meaningless to Christians for 2000+ years. No, the text has had great meaning for early Christians and throughout history which continues to this day. I hope that makes more sense.T

Agreed. It is a well established fact that the ECF expected the soon arise of Antichrist after the fall of the Roman Empire. To try and convince those waiting for Jesus to sneak in and sneak out of town with them before the Antichrist arises during "the last seven years of tribulation" is almost impossible.

Indifferent, complacent religious experience must be exchanged for determined preparation to stand for God amidst terrible opposition.

A peaceful departure must be exchanged for a difficult, oppressive occupation.

Acceptance among one's peers must be exchanged for rejection and ridicule.

Stubborn pride must be exchanged for a willingness to admit formerly deeply held, sincere beliefs were but Jesuit deceptions designed to conceal from view the truth about the 6th century rise of the Papal Antichrist, its reign over a large portion of the world and entire church, the eventual God-ordained rise of the Protestant Reformation which exposed the errors of popery, and that the soon return of Jesus must be preceded by our choice to either accept the Mark of the Papal Beast or the Seal of God - the consequences of a wrong choice being that from which OSAS will be powerless to protect us.

 

[Wormwood]

Phoneman777,

While we might agree on some things in regards to eschatology and OSAS, I think they are merely coincidental as there is a large and sad gap between our views on the most important themes of Scripture due to your JW background.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman777,

While we might agree on some things in regards to eschatology and OSAS, I think they are merely coincidental as there is a large and sad gap between our views on the most important themes of Scripture due to your JW background.

JW background? You are sadly mistaken about that, W.

 

[Phoneman777]

While there is absolutely no Biblical precedent for inserting a "gap" in any numerically specific time prophecy, there is a firmly established Biblical precedent showing no "gap" has ever been inserted in any numerically specific time prophecy:

The 120 years before the Deluge was 120 years.
The 40 days and 40 nights of the Deluge was 40 days and 40 nights.
The 400 years of bondage in Egypt was 400 years.
The 7 years of plenty in Egypt was 7 years.
The 7 years of famine was also 7 years.
The 40 years of wilderness wandering was 40 years.
The 70 years of Babylonian captivity was 70 years.
The 7 years of Nebuchadnezzer's insanity was 7 years.
The 3 1/2 years of Elijah's famine was 3 1/2 years.
The 3 days of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was 3 days.
Every single other numerically specific Scripture time prophecy was from start to finish no longer than the stated numeric length - no gap.

Why, then, do some violate Scriptural precedent in order to insert a "gap" in the 70 Weeks as first taught by Jesuit Ribera in the 16th century, when Historicism is an air tight eschatological interpretation which the entire Protestant world adhered to up until the last hundred years or so? Could it be that Protestantism has so been infiltrated by the Jesuit Order that men now call good evil and evil good?

 

[Marilyn C]

I am not well at the moment but will get back when I can.

Marilyn.

 

[Phoneman777]

I am not well at the moment but will get back when I can.

Marilyn.

Prayers for you, dear sister!

 

[Wormwood]

JW background? You are sadly mistaken about that, W.

Oh? My mistake. I thought for sure I had seen you post that you were a JW on another thread. My apologies!

 

[Phoneman777]

Oh? My mistake. I thought for sure I had seen you post that you were a JW on another thread. My apologies!

No worries. I reject the Greek "Critical Text" MSS upon which the JW New World Translation is based. I prefer the "Textus Receptus" MSS and any Bible based on that.

 

[Marilyn C]

Prayers for you, dear sister!

Thank you Phoneman777,

Appreciate your prayers. I am getting better & will post soon.

All the best, Marilyn.


And Wormwood, Sorry haven`t answered sooner but will hopefully tomorrow.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Wormwood]

No hurry Marilyn. Praying for grace to lift you up on your feet again.

Grace and peace,

Chad

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Wormwood,

Thank you for being patient for my reply. Now this is what I believe & said –

`I don`t think you quite understand when I say `Christ is the centre of God`s word.` I don`t just mean it is telling of His manifestation or a letter to early Christians, those are still in the historic context, (which is important). However for Christ to be the centre then those parts need to be also seen in relationship to God`s overall purposes, otherwise they are just interesting bits of information.`

And you replied -

`Yes, I agree with you. This is why I view apocalyptic literature the way that I do. Not only does it speak to the author's actual intent historically, but it gives us powerful applications for every age`

So that`s great that we agree that there is an historic context & an application aspect, & further still I believe there is a Christ-centric purpose that brings it all together.

We both would agree that some of what is written in God`s word to the people at the time was related to events & people yet to come. For example all the prophecies of Christ`s coming in manifestation on earth & then other prophecies concerning His coming in power & great glory. These scriptures didn`t specifically relate to the people it was written to but to them as God`s nation or as Gentile nations.

Thus we see that God has a greater picture unfolding in His word than just information to different people at different times for our application. God was revealing events that would unfold in His great plan.

I will stop here & see what you think so far.

All the best, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn,
I'm curious as to whether your belief in 444 B.C. has any other basis other than Artaxerxes' words to Nehemiah and Christ the "commander".
God bless u2, Phoneman

Hi Phoneman777,

I think that was the last discussion we had so will pick up from there. You asked about any other basis....


1. King Artaxeres - `And it came about in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of king Artaxeres....` (Neh. 2: 1)

2. Palm Sunday - ` Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany,.......the next day ......Jesus was coming into Jerusalem...` (on a colt) (John 12: 1 & 12)


Passover, as we know is always on the 14/15 of Nisan.

`On the 14th day of the first month at twilight is the Lord`s Passover, & on the 15th day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord...` (Lev. 23: 4 & 5)


Thus from Nisan (Artaxeres) to five days (Palm Sunday) before 14/15th Nisan (Passover) is an exact measurement.


God bless, Marilyn.

 

[Wormwood]

Yes, Marilyn. I agree that the focus is on Christ, the Kingdom of God and God's plan for humanity. However, most prophecy is prescriptive, not predictive. Yes, Revelation tells us that Jesus is returning and gives us some insights that it will be a great and terrible day. However, the focus on Christ's return is not what it will look like and how we can go about figuring how close we are as many Premillennial Dispensationalists attempt to do. The focus is how we should live now as a result of the fact he could return at any moment and will judge all humanity. That is the focus Jesus gives in all his parables about his return and that is the focus of Revelation throughout. It is not about future Antichrists, tattoos or tanks, but about making sure you are sealed with the Holy Spirit, living for Christ and not compromising in a world that is under judgment and is being used by the dragon to wage war on the saints. That has been my point. If someone reads Revelation and starts to formulate a timeline for raptures, 2nd comings, 3rd comings, bindings, temples, Antichrists, and one-world governments...then they have horribly misunderstood the Scriptures.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Wormwood,

I agree with a lot of what you say. However for you to understand what I mean concerning Christ as centre of the Bible I think I may have to start a new thread. Hope to see you there for encouragement & input.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Wormwood]

I will try to look for it. Can you post a link to it here? I may not be able to review it until Monday. Have a blessed weekend!

 

[Marilyn C]

I will try to look for it. Can you post a link to it here? I may not be able to review it until Monday. Have a blessed weekend!

Hi Wormwood,

That`s fine bro, we all have other duties to do, take your time. Now I have started the topic - `Christ the centre of the Bible,` in this eschatological section & hope to see your there.

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman777,

I think that was the last discussion we had so will pick up from there. You asked about any other basis....


1. King Artaxeres - `And it came about in the month of Nisan, in the twentieth year of king Artaxeres....` (Neh. 2: 1)

2. Palm Sunday - ` Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany,.......the next day ......Jesus was coming into Jerusalem...` (on a colt) (John 12: 1 & 12)


Passover, as we know is always on the 14/15 of Nisan.

`On the 14th day of the first month at twilight is the Lord`s Passover, & on the 15th day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord...` (Lev. 23: 4 & 5)


Thus from Nisan (Artaxeres) to five days (Palm Sunday) before 14/15th Nisan (Passover) is an exact measurement.


God bless, Marilyn.

So, it seems that the "444 B.C." idea is supported by (1) the events surrounding Nehemiah's request to return to Jerusalem and (2) the "princely" entry of Jesus into Jerusalem. If I've missed any other support, please share it again with me if you don't mind. Thanks.

 

[Marilyn C]

So, it seems that the "444 B.C." idea is supported by (1) the events surrounding Nehemiah's request to return to Jerusalem and (2) the "princely" entry of Jesus into Jerusalem. If I've missed any other support, please share it again with me if you don't mind. Thanks.

Hi Phoneman777,

Glad to see you are still here. Yes there is other support, however it involves the `eternal purposes of God,` & is a big subject. I will eventually get to it but have other topics I think are needed at the moment. So perhaps later in the year. It is a topic very close to my heart & do want to discuss it, but see that other topics are where we are at now. You can always remind me later on if you so desire to talk on the `eternal purposes` of God.

Blessings, Marilyn.