Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy

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Douggg

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He is a king from a far away Kingdom. He will return as King of this world at the second coming.
Oh, so now you are saying that Jesus will return to earth riding a donkey.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again CTK,
If anyone is interested, I would respectfully request that we might return to the original topic of the 2300 days prophecy.
Yes, I am willing to reaffirm what I stated, and this is an answer to points 1-3.
1) is this time element speaking to the cleansing of the Sanctuary in heaven or on earth?
2) is this event that was fulfilled during the time of AE, Messiah, or in the end times, (or another view)?
3) is it to be calculated in days, 1/2 days, or years?
I consider that the 2300 represents from BC 334-333 the overthrow of the Persian Ram by the Grecian Goat headed up by Alexander the Great to AD 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

CTK

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Greetings again CTK,

Yes, I am willing to reaffirm what I stated, and this is an answer to points 1-3.

I consider that the 2300 represents from BC 334-333 the overthrow of the Persian Ram by the Grecian Goat headed up by Alexander the Great to AD 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor
Thanks. But doesn't this event take place within the discussion of the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome? The first three kingdoms are long gone and almost all of remaining chapters concentrate on the 4th kingdom. Yes, there is a "mentioning" of them in passing, but the 4th kingdom is where all the prophetic / messianic events take place with the most important being the arrival and death of the Messiah.

Don't you think these remaining chapters should be focusing on the coming Messiah and what will take place by the end of the 70th weeks of years prophecy - which just happens to arrive at the first day of the Messiah when He will begin His ministry, and within 3.5 years He would be crucified?

Remember, the Temple, the Sanctuary, the High Priest, the animal sacrifices on earth are all a symbol of what is found in heaven. And didn't Jesus fulfill all of them within the last week of the prophecy, thus doiing awary with each one of them? Certainly, in heaven, there is no literal animal sacrifices, but can you see how God would receive the Messiah as His Passover Lamb and cleanse the Sanctuary in heaven? All of the Levitical ceremonies incuding the physical elements were a foreshadowing of the coming Messiah. If He , fulfilled all of these during the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy - He certainly was our Temple, our sacrificial Lamb, then why shouldn't this prophecy also speak to His fulfilling His mission?

I can assure you these prophecies in Chapter 8 - 12 are speaking about the coming of the Messiah in the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, the setting up of His church after the cross, then the growth of His church until it is taken over / appropriated by the little horn after pagan Rome is destroyed (7:11).

Daniel does not go backwards but always reveal God's propheciea going forward. The only thing that is mentioned in Chapters 7,8 and 11 are the past kingdoms before pagan Rome. They are merely mentioned to ensure we keep our focus on the 4th kingdom period and not to look back.

Look forward to your thoughts.
 

Douggg

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When then, did Jesus fulfill Zechariah 9:9 ? It is obvious that Jesus fulfilled that prophecy in John 12:12-15.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

The point is that Jesus was the God-sent King of Israel messiah. The Jews rejected Him, but another the Jews will receive as their King of Israel messiah. That person will be the Antichrist.
 

ewq1938

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When then, did Jesus fulfill Zechariah 9:9 ? It is obvious that Jesus fulfilled that prophecy in John 12:12-15.

Part was fulfilled at the time, part shall be at the second coming.
 

Douggg

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Part was fulfilled at the time, part shall be at the second coming.
What part ?

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again CTK,
Thanks. But doesn't this event take place within the discussion of the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome?
I am not sure how you string all your thoughts together. I understand the main vision of chapter 8 is the overthrow of the Persian Kingdom by the Grecian Kingdom. It then progresses into the Pagan Roman Empire era and the crucifixion of Jesus and then the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. Jesus takes up this thought in Luke 21:24 and speaks of the dispersion of the Jews and that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles for a long period of time, quoting and alluding to the 2300 years of Daniel 8:13. This down-treading of Jerusalem was reversed in AD 1967. I consider that the invasion by the King of the North in Daniel 11:40-45 is still future and will precipitate the Battle of Armageddon and the intervention of Christ at his return.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Jay Ross

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Greetings again CTK,

I am not sure how you string all your thoughts together. I understand the main vision of chapter 8 is the overthrow of the Persian Kingdom by the Grecian Kingdom. It then progresses into the Pagan Roman Empire era and the crucifixion of Jesus and then the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. Jesus takes up this thought in Luke 21:24 and speaks of the dispersion of the Jews and that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles for a long period of time, quoting and alluding to the 2300 years of Daniel 8:13. This down-treading of Jerusalem was reversed in AD 1967. I consider that the invasion by the King of the North in Daniel 11:40-45 is still future and will precipitate the Battle of Armageddon and the intervention of Christ at his return.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor, you are right Jesus in Luke 21:24 is confirming that the 2,300 evenings and mornings will occur over a very long period of time, nominally, 2,300 years, which will end when the Kings of the Earth will be drawn to the place called Armageddon to be judged for their part in the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His Earthly hosts.

Many who point to the time of the Maccabees and the 2,300 days that Jerusalem and the temple were being trampled by the Grecian empire have it all wrong since they ignore other Biblical prophecies that deal with the same topic.

What we are seeing at the present time in the Land of Canaan are the Jews being trampled and killed by the Islamic people who are desperate to wipe the Jews from the Sea to the River Jordan.

It is my view that that the Daniel 8 trampling prophecy will not be completed for another 20 years from now.

When Israel attempts to rebuild the temple in our near future, they will be ridiculed by the nations around them, and they will not have the means to complete the task. Israel will become the laughingstock of the nations, when they fail to complete rebuilding the Temple.

Then the Armageddon event will begin where God will Judge the Kings of the earth for the part that they kings played in trampling the Sanctuary and God's earthly hosts.

After this judgement of the Heavenly Hosts and the Kings of the earth, Ezekiel 34 tells us that Israel will have a period of peace around 1,000 years long after which time the Heavenly Hosts and the Kings of the earth will be released from the Bottomless pit for a little while period, with a duration of only 24 years, when most of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation will take place.

Shalom
 

CTK

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Trevor, you are right Jesus in Luke 21:24 is confirming that the 2,300 evenings and mornings will occur over a very long period of time, nominally, 2,300 years, which will end when the Kings of the Earth will be drawn to the place called Armageddon to be judged for their part in the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His Earthly hosts.

Many who point to the time of the Maccabees and the 2,300 days that Jerusalem and the temple were being trampled by the Grecian empire have it all wrong since they ignore other Biblical prophecies that deal with the same topic.

What we are seeing at the present time in the Land of Canaan are the Jews being trampled and killed by the Islamic people who are desperate to wipe the Jews from the Sea to the River Jordan.

It is my view that that the Daniel 8 trampling prophecy will not be completed for another 20 years from now.

When Israel attempts to rebuild the temple in our near future, they will be ridiculed by the nations around them, and they will not have the means to complete the task. Israel will become the laughingstock of the nations, when they fail to complete rebuilding the Temple.

Then the Armageddon event will begin where God will Judge the Kings of the earth for the part that they kings played in trampling the Sanctuary and God's earthly hosts.

After this judgement of the Heavenly Hosts and the Kings of the earth, Ezekiel 34 tells us that Israel will have a period of peace around 1,000 years long after which time the Heavenly Hosts and the Kings of the earth will be released from the Bottomless pit for a little while period, with a duration of only 24 years, when most of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation will take place.

Shalom
What calls for one to change the unit of measurement that has been given to us? I don’t understand..,
 

CTK

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Greetings again CTK,

I am not sure how you string all your thoughts together. I understand the main vision of chapter 8 is the overthrow of the Persian Kingdom by the Grecian Kingdom. It then progresses into the Pagan Roman Empire era and the crucifixion of Jesus and then the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. Jesus takes up this thought in Luke 21:24 and speaks of the dispersion of the Jews and that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles for a long period of time, quoting and alluding to the 2300 years of Daniel 8:13. This down-treading of Jerusalem was reversed in AD 1967. I consider that the invasion by the King of the North in Daniel 11:40-45 is still future and will precipitate the Battle of Armageddon and the intervention of Christ at his return.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thanks Trevor. If you do not mind, perhaps we can go through the verses (briefly) in Chapter 8 and determine when we depart in our intepretations. Consequently, here are a few of the beginning verses we can initially discuss:

3Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. 4I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could [d]withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great.

In these two verses, we are told the arrival of a ram with two horns. This ram represents the second kingdom of the Medes-Persians who would go on to conquer Babylon - the first kingdom. There are two important factors to recognize within these early verses

a) God is going to have us focus on ONLY those kingdoms within this chapter that He has given "horns" to. In Chapter 2, He wanted us to focus on the four kingdoms at the "kingdom" level to establish He brought our these 4 and only 4 kingdoms out of the sea. These 4 are now locked in for the remaining of the chapters in Daniel. They set the "kingdom structure" where all of Daniel's prophecies will be placed. In Chapter 7, God uses very different symbols and wants us to focus on the entities / kingdoms at the "king" level. But in Chapter 8, He wants our focus on ONLY those kingdoms He has symbolized as having "horns" (powers). Thus, unlike in the earlier chapters, those entities assigned a "horn (s)" will be discussed.

b) The second factor to consider in this chapter is the term used by God to isolate and identify those "horns" (powers) by specifically qualifying each of the "horns" by their level of "power." Thus, in verse 4, God is telling us this second kingdom power - the Medes-Persians are "great."


5And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 6Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. 7And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, [e]attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. 8Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.


In these three verses, He reveals another animal - a goat. This power is recognized as having one LARGE horn on its head. This one large horn represents Alexander of the third kingdom of Greece. He will go on to conquer the second kingdom of rhe Medes-Persians. Now, in verse 8, we find that God has determined he would be "very great." But Alexander would soon die and would be replaced by his 4 generals. The important points here are that:

a) It was God who had given the power to the 4 notable ones (4 generals). They are not ever recognized as "horns" in this chapter.

b) These 4 generals did not come out of the "sea" as He had brought out the 4 kingdoms identified in Chapter 7 and confirmed in Chapter 7.

c) These 4 generals would never accomplish the level of power that Alexander had. And God tells us they are sent out into the 4 winds of heaven. This is important because they were not / never given a "kingdom" and they were thrown out into the 4 winds - meaning they were thrown out into the chaos and instability that would come after Alexander's death. This phrase is very important because God is revealing to us the third kingdom of Alexander (one LARGE horn) is over, and the remaining prophecies are relevant and to be placed within the fourth and final kingdom. If you go back to either Chapter 2 or 7, you will find they both ensure we recognize there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms, they are specifically separate kingdoms with NO bleeding over between them. There are no spaces between the 4 metal sections of the metal man image, and this is supporte in Chapter 7 by God giving us 4 very separate and distinct animals - none of these animals can be mixed with the other - they maintain their own identity and the actors found within each kingdom stays within their respective kingdom. Thus, the 4 heads on the top of the Leopard (3rd kingdom in Chapter 7) refer to the 4 generals. They do not bleed over to the 4th kingdom, and once again, there are NO other actors that come between these defined and segragated kingdoms.

Now, this is a mouthful but it is critical we honor the "4 kingdom structure" that has been given to us by God in Chapters 2 and 7. We can not add to or subtract from His "structure."

If we get through these few verses we can move on to the next few verses which is most likely where there is a departure......

Thanks, and I look forward to your thoughts.
 

ewq1938

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What part ?

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

The coming part etc...he wasn't a King of any earthly kingdom, not until the second coming. Sort of like someone winning a presidential election and being called President but before the actual inauguration when they are actually President.
 

Douggg

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The coming part etc...he wasn't a King of any earthly kingdom, not until the second coming. Sort of like someone winning a presidential election and being called President but before the actual inauguration when they are actually President.
Zechariah 9:9 is not part of Jesus's Second Coming. In Jesus's Second Coming, He comes in power and great glory, Matthew 24:30.

Differently, in Zechariah 9:9 he comes lowly, not in glorified appearance, and riding a a donkey.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
 

ewq1938

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Zechariah 9:9 is not part of Jesus's Second Coming. In Jesus's Second Coming, He comes in power and great glory, Matthew 24:30.

Differently, in Zechariah 9:9 he comes lowly, not in glorified appearance, and riding a a donkey.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.


You keep avoiding the fact that Jesus said his kingdom which he is a king of was not this world. So, it doesn't matter if people called him king, he wasn't king of any place of this world yet.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings Jay Ross,
It is my view that that the Daniel 8 trampling prophecy will not be completed for another 20 years from now.
I will hold to the AD 1967 date. There could be other starting and finishing times, but I consider the start in BC 334-333 is the most significant. Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years had two fulfillments.
When Israel attempts to rebuild the temple in our near future, they will be ridiculed by the nations around them, and they will not have the means to complete the task. Israel will become the laughingstock of the nations, when they fail to complete rebuilding the Temple.
I do not read about this in the Scripture.
a little while period, with a duration of only 24 years, when most of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation will take place.
My impression of the Futurist concept is that they they believe most of the events of the Book of Revelation occur at the return of Jesus at the beginning of the 1000 years. Your view could be unique in that you believe that most of the events happen at the end of the 1000 years. I am Pre-millennial and accept the Continuous Historic Interpretation of Daniel and the Book of Revelation.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again CTK,
In these two verses, we are told the arrival of a ram with two horns. This ram represents the second kingdom of the Medes-Persians who would go on to conquer Babylon - the first kingdom.
Agreed.
God is going to have us focus on ONLY those kingdoms within this chapter that He has given "horns" to.
Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.
In these three verses, He reveals another animal - a goat. This power is recognized as having one LARGE horn on its head. This one large horn represents Alexander of the third kingdom of Greece. He will go on to conquer the second kingdom of rhe Medes-Persians. Now, in verse 8, we find that God has determined he would be "very great." But Alexander would soon die and would be replaced by his 4 generals.
Agreed.
It was God who had given the power to the 4 notable ones (4 generals). They are not ever recognized as "horns" in this chapter.
I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.
This is important because they were not / never given a "kingdom" and they were thrown out into the 4 winds - meaning they were thrown out into the chaos and instability that would come after Alexander's death. This phrase is very important because God is revealing to us the third kingdom of Alexander (one LARGE horn) is over,
Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.

Kind regards
Trevor
.
 

Douggg

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You keep avoiding the fact that Jesus said his kingdom which he is a king of was not this world. So, it doesn't matter if people called him king, he wasn't king of any place of this world yet.
You keep avoiding the fact that Jesus was the God-sent king of Israel at His First Coming. At His Second Coming, Jesus will be the God-sent King of kings, over the whole world.
 

ewq1938

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You keep avoiding the fact that Jesus was the God-sent king of Israel at His First Coming.

No, he was a king from a distant kingdom, not a king of any part of this world which matches with what Christ himself said.

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
 

CTK

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Greetings again CTK,

Agreed.

Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.

Agreed.

I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.

Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.

Kind regards
Trevor
.
The 4th kingdom beast is pagan Rome - the kingdom that was in place when the Messiah arrived. After the cross AND after the 10 horns came out of pagan Rome, the little horn would not arrive for another 400 years.
Greetings again CTK,

Agreed.

Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.

Agreed.

I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.

Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.

Kind regards
Trevor
.

Greetings again CTK,

Agreed.

Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.

Agreed.

I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.

Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.

Kind regards
Trevor
.
In these two verses, we are told the arrival of a ram with two horns. This ram represents the second kingdom of the Medes-Persians who would go on to conquer Babylon - the first kingdom.

Agreed.


CTK said:

God is going to have us focus on ONLY those kingdoms within this chapter that He has given "horns" to.

Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.


I don’t believe you have understood my comment. Yes, the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, but, as I mentioned, God has given us no less than two very important factors to recognize – He prophecies in Chapter 8 are now being focused more narrowly – He specifically is telling us to only consider those powers that He has both assigned with “horns,” and has identified their power level – great, very great, or exceedingly great.


Medes- Persia – 2 horns and is “great,”

Greece – One large horn and is “very great.”

Little horn – one little horn and is “exceedingly great.”


Both Babylon and pagan Rome are not found in Chapter 8. God is having us focus on these 3 powers ONLY. The little horn comes out of pagan Rome but he will not “sit atop” the 4th beast kingdom until some 400 years later. He will sit atop the “divided” kingdom which will become known as papal Rome (2:41-43).




CTK said:

In these three verses, He reveals another animal - a goat. This power is recognized as having one LARGE horn on its head. This one large horn represents Alexander of the third kingdom of Greece. He will go on to conquer the second kingdom of rhe Medes-Persians. Now, in verse 8, we find that God has determined he would be "very great." But Alexander would soon die and would be replaced by his 4 generals.

Agreed.


CTK said:

It was God who had given the power to the 4 notable ones (4 generals). They are not ever recognized as "horns" in this chapter.

I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.


No, many have assumed the notable ones are horns but that is not the case. The only powers in Chapter 8 that God has designated as “horns or powers” are the three mentioned above --- this is indeed purposeful and His way of identifying who His prophetic verses are speaking about. He has a reason for doing everything!

Yes, that is exactly what I had mentioned, the 4 heads are found on the top of the head of the 3rd kingdom of Greece in the Chapter 7 symbols. Meaning, they belong only within the 3rd kingdom and do not bleed over into the 4th kingdom. Did you not understand my previous comments on what the phrase “toward the 4 winds of heaven” meant? They were simply thrown out into the chaos and instability of the post Alexander kingdom. This is God’s method of closing out the 3rd kingdom – not continuing to have us consider it any longer. The mission of the 3rd kingdom centered exclusively on Alexander. After his death, the 3rd kingdom would come to an end – from God’s prophetic storyline.


CTK said:

This is important because they were not / never given a "kingdom" and they were thrown out into the 4 winds - meaning they were thrown out into the chaos and instability that would come after Alexander's death. This phrase is very important because God is revealing to us the third kingdom of Alexander (one LARGE horn) is over,

Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.

There is no subdivision. If you want to follow those 4 generals and the conflicts that come after Alexander, fine, then go to the history section of the library, but they have and are not part of God’s prophetic storyline. The 3rd kingdom is over and there will be a long time between the 3rd and the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. And, pagan Rome – which is indeed found in both Chapters 2 and 7 will not be ever referred to in Chapter 8 as EITHER HAVING A HORN OR EXCEEDINGLY GREAT.

God is not required, and indeed does not follow what we have recorded in our history books. That is one of the primary reasons why "today's accepted interpretations" are so flawed - everyone attempts to match the actors and events found within our history books to the verses in Daniel. Daniel is not a history book or lesson. It takes quite a bit of effort and time to study and unpack Daniel - and one is not going to find His prophetic and messianic meanings with a history book at our side.

So, I look forward to your next comment on the above and then we can decide whether it makes sense to move to the next few verses. Let me know your thoughts on the verses so far.
 

Douggg

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No, he was a king from a distant kingdom, not a king of any part of this world which matches with what Christ himself said.

Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Like the pharisees, you deny that Jesus was the God-sent King of Israel.

John 12:12-15 proves that Jesus was the God-sent King of Israel. And Revelation 19:16, Jesus will be the God-sent King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.