Greetings again CTK,
Agreed.
Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.
Agreed.
I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.
Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.
Kind regards
Trevor
.
The 4th kingdom beast is pagan Rome - the kingdom that was in place when the Messiah arrived. After the cross AND after the 10 horns came out of pagan Rome, the little horn would not arrive for another 400 years.
Greetings again CTK,
Agreed.
Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.
Agreed.
I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.
Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.
Kind regards
Trevor
.
Greetings again CTK,
Agreed.
Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.
Agreed.
I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.
Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.
Kind regards
Trevor
.
In these two verses, we are told the arrival of a ram with two horns. This ram represents the second kingdom of the Medes-Persians who would go on to conquer Babylon - the first kingdom.
Agreed.
CTK said:
God is going to have us focus on ONLY those kingdoms within this chapter that He has given "horns" to.
Disagreed. I understand the little horn is at first the Pagan Roman Empire in the East.
I don’t believe you have understood my comment. Yes, the 4th beast kingdom is pagan Rome, but, as I mentioned, God has given us no less than two very important factors to recognize – He prophecies in Chapter 8 are now being focused more narrowly – He specifically is telling us to only consider those powers that He has both assigned with “horns,” and has identified their power level – great, very great, or exceedingly great.
Medes- Persia – 2 horns and is “great,”
Greece – One large horn and is “very great.”
Little horn – one little horn and is “exceedingly great.”
Both Babylon and pagan Rome are not found in Chapter 8. God is having us focus on these 3 powers ONLY. The little horn comes out of pagan Rome but he will not “sit atop” the 4th beast kingdom until some 400 years later. He will sit atop the “divided” kingdom which will become known as papal Rome (2:41-43).
CTK said:
In these three verses, He reveals another animal - a goat. This power is recognized as having one LARGE horn on its head. This one large horn represents Alexander of the third kingdom of Greece. He will go on to conquer the second kingdom of rhe Medes-Persians. Now, in verse 8, we find that God has determined he would be "very great." But Alexander would soon die and would be replaced by his 4 generals.
Agreed.
CTK said:
It was God who had given the power to the 4 notable ones (4 generals). They are not ever recognized as "horns" in this chapter.
I have always assumed that "notable ones" are four notable horns.
Daniel 8:8 (KJV): Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong,
the great horn was broken; and for it came up
four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
These four horns are upon the head of the Goat.
No, many have assumed the notable ones are horns but that is not the case. The only powers in Chapter 8 that God has designated as “horns or powers” are the three mentioned above --- this is indeed purposeful and His way of identifying who His prophetic verses are speaking about. He has a reason for doing everything!
Yes, that is exactly what I had mentioned, the 4 heads are found on the top of the head of the 3rd kingdom of Greece in the Chapter 7 symbols. Meaning, they belong only within the 3rd kingdom and do not bleed over into the 4th kingdom. Did you not understand my previous comments on what the phrase “toward the 4 winds of heaven” meant? They were simply thrown out into the chaos and instability of the post Alexander kingdom. This is God’s method of closing out the 3rd kingdom – not continuing to have us consider it any longer. The mission of the 3rd kingdom centered exclusively on Alexander. After his death, the 3rd kingdom would come to an end – from God’s prophetic storyline.
CTK said:
This is important because they were not / never given a "kingdom" and they were thrown out into the 4 winds - meaning they were thrown out into the chaos and instability that would come after Alexander's death. This phrase is very important because God is revealing to us the third kingdom of Alexander (one LARGE horn) is over,
Alexander's rule was over, but we have a subdivision of his Empire by the Four Generals, and two are perhaps better known, the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Kingdoms, aka the King of the North and the King of the South.
There is no subdivision. If you want to follow those 4 generals and the conflicts that come after Alexander, fine, then go to the history section of the library, but they have and are not part of God’s prophetic storyline. The 3rd kingdom is over and there will be a long time between the 3rd and the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. And, pagan Rome – which is indeed found in both Chapters 2 and 7 will not be ever referred to in Chapter 8 as EITHER HAVING A HORN OR EXCEEDINGLY GREAT.
God is not required, and indeed does not follow what we have recorded in our history books. That is one of the primary reasons why "today's accepted interpretations" are so flawed - everyone attempts to match the actors and events found within our history books to the verses in Daniel. Daniel is not a history book or lesson. It takes quite a bit of effort and time to study and unpack Daniel - and one is not going to find His prophetic and messianic meanings with a history book at our side.
So, I look forward to your next comment on the above and then we can decide whether it makes sense to move to the next few verses. Let me know your thoughts on the verses so far.