Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy

[CTK]

Okay, perhaps we might try and attack this topic another way. Instead of providing our individual opinions, which are many, why don't we try and come up with the various attributes, characteristics, and of course the timing that we might find in Daniel 7 and 8 (for now) that specficially are pointing to the identification of this little horn?

If each is able to put aside their individual conclusions for a moment, and we can come to an agreement on what verses are given that relate only to this little horn, I believe we can make some progress. I suggest we leave Chapter 2 alone and begin with Chapter 7. By the way, this is a sound method to arrive at the 2300 days prophecy.... important to go through 7 and 8 for this.


So, I will start this off -

Verses 7:7-8 speaks to the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome. In Chapter 7, the 10 toes are now seen as 10 horns that come out of the 4th beast kingdom. Without concerning ourselves with the reason they came out or the identification of these 10 horns, we find that another little horn comes out of the same 4th beast kingdom but after the 10 horns. Also, we are told that at some point this same little horn will pluck up3 of those 10 horns.


So, what do we know so far? The 10 horns come out of pagan Rome and the little horn comes out of pagan Rome but only after the 10 horns come onto the scene. And sometime in the future, this little horn will pluck up 3 of the 10 horns. Additionally, we are told this little horn has eyes and a mouth like a man, consequently, it is indeed a man.


Next step

1) you can agree or disagee with the above and if the latter, offer your reason why these verses are not relevant.
2) assuming all agree, I would ask someone to offer their opinion on the next one or two verses in Chapter 7 that are relevant to the little horn, the 4th beast kingdom or the 10 horns and we can discuss them.

Look forward to your thoughts!

 

[Douggg]

What about you? Do you agree that the Hebrew meaning for the word "days", in the 2300 day prophecy, is correct scripture?
If so, then that prophecy should be counted by days, and not years.

I agree it is 2300 days, not 2300 years.

 

[Douggg]

Okay, perhaps we might try and attack this topic another way. Instead of providing our individual opinions, which are many, why don't we try and come up with the various attributes, characteristics, and of course the timing that we might find in Daniel 7 and 8 (for now) that specficially are pointing to the identification of this little horn?

If each is able to put aside their individual conclusions for a moment, and we can come to an agreement on what verses are given that relate only to this little horn, I believe we can make some progress. I suggest we leave Chapter 2 alone and begin with Chapter 7. By the way, this is a sound method to arrive at the 2300 days prophecy.... important to go through 7 and 8 for this.


So, I will start this off -

Verses 7:7-8 speaks to the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome. In Chapter 7, the 10 toes are now seen as 10 horns that come out of the 4th beast kingdom. Without concerning ourselves with the reason they came out or the identification of these 10 horns, we find that another little horn comes out of the same 4th beast kingdom but after the 10 horns. Also, we are told that at some point this same little horn will pluck up3 of those 10 horns.


So, what do we know so far? The 10 horns come out of pagan Rome and the little horn comes out of pagan Rome but only after the 10 horns come onto the scene. And sometime in the future, this little horn will pluck up 3 of the 10 horns. Additionally, we are told this little horn has eyes and a mouth like a man, consequently, it is indeed a man.


Next step

1) you can agree or disagee with the above and if the latter, offer your reason why these verses are not relevant.
2) assuming all agree, I would ask someone to offer their opinion on the next one or two verses in Chapter 7 that are relevant to the little horn, the 4th beast kingdom or the 10 horns and we can discuss them.

Look forward to your thoughts!

The little horn person magnifies himself in his heart.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

2Thessalonains2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The little horn person will at some point claim to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself to be "the man of sin" on the chart below.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, the little horn person is referring to some end times person. He is not the Pope, papacy. He is not Antiochus IV.

 

[ewq1938]

If each is able to put aside their individual conclusions for a moment

Verses 7:7-8 speaks to the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome.

Uh, you just gave your own "personal conclusion" or assumption right there. The 4th beast is not Rome because it is destroyed at a coming of God. Rome is long gone so when God does come, he isn't going to be defeating a Roman empire or army etc. Also in Daniel 7 we see 3 beasts/kingdoms that existed prior to the 4th beast who all live and exist past the destruction of the 4th beast. Nothing therefore about Rome and three Pre-Rome empires match the prophecies in Daniel 7.

 

[CTK]

Uh, you just gave your own "personal conclusion" or assumption right there. The 4th beast is not Rome because it is destroyed at a coming of God. Rome is long gone so when God does come, he isn't going to be defeating a Roman empire or army etc. Also in Daniel 7 we see 3 beasts/kingdoms that existed prior to the 4th beast who all live and exist past the destruction of the 4th beast. Nothing therefore about Rome and three Pre-Rome empires match the prophecies in Daniel 7.

okay and thanks for your input. Does anyone else care to weigh in on these two verses and what are the next one of two relevant verses that we should discuss?

 

[Earburner]

Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, the little horn person is referring to some end times person. He is not the Pope, papacy. He is not Antiochus IV.

Ok, yes I do agree with the way you are looking at the 2300 literal DAY prophecy.
If you are seeing it in typology (type and antitype),
That is exactly how we are to move forward with that past historical event of the 2300 days.

God's whole point of the 2300 Day prophecy is to show that after Antiochus lV had taken away all the articles of the "temple sanctuary" for two years, and then came back, and committed "the abomination that maketh desolate", the temple sanctuary was to be cleansed and restored.
The prophecy then spells out that the "temple sanctuary" was cleansed and restored, of which did historically take place through Judas Maccabeus. 1 Maccabees chs. 1-6. The Jews to this day, still celebrate Hanukkah, concerning those 2300 DAYS.

So then, the 2300 day prophecy was fulfilled, and once a prophecy is fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again. BUT, it can be used in typology.

Now, let's Look at some NT scriptures, that reveal what the temple sanctuary actually is, through the perspective of what God is pointing to, of which is the "temple sanctuary" that truly needed to be cleansed and restored.
Luke 17
[20] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
[21] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
So then, in essence and in truth, the KoG is to be within each of us through faith in Jesus, who Himself came in the flesh to prepare and establish "the way" for each of us, who do come to God through faith in him.

We can see that typology is being used here:
John 2
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy [desolate] this temple, and in three days I will raise [restore] it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his [mortal] body.

For all we, who ARE "born again" by the Holy Spirit of God, WE each ARE the very "temple sanctuary" (dwelling place) of the Living God, through Jesus Himself, who IS THE FIRST resurrection. "Blessed and holy is he, that hath part in the FIRST resurrection....", who is Jesus.
If not, then NONE of us are "partakers of the divine nature", and therefore Rom. 8:9 shall fully apply.

 

[Earburner]

I agree it is 2300 days, not 2300 years.

Amen!! Please see my post #407

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The 2300 days of Daniel 8 and the little horn activities are "time of the end".

Which eliminates Antiochus IV as being the litte horn. Also the little horn commits the "transgression of desolation" which is different than the abomination of desolation.

Antiochus IV is in Daniel 11 as being the person in Daniel 11:31 who placed the abomination of desolation in the temple. So Antiochus IV is referred to in bible prophecy. And he did defile the temple.

But Antiochus IV is not the time of the end little horn person who will both commit the "transgression of desolation" and will be involved in the "abomination of desolation" placed on the temple mount in the end times.

The "time of the end" is the end of each country's reign over Israel. Chapter 8 is about the Greece conquering Mede and Persia. The only king who describes the defiling of the temple and the 2,300 days is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The 2,300 is how long the Jewish revolt lasted for them to cleanse the temple.

 

[Douggg]

So then, the 2300 day prophecy was fulfilled, and once a prophecy is fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again. BUT, it can be used in typology.

Antiochus IV did not fulfill the 2300 days time of the end prophecy in Daniel 8.

1. Because he was not time of the end.
2. Because he did not commit the transgression of desolation "act".

Antiochus IV did fulfill placing the abomination of desolation in the temple of Daniel 11:31. That statue image is a typology of what the time of the end abomination of desolation will be.

But Antiochus IV was not the time of the end little horn person. The little horn person must be a Jew who will be anointed the king of Israel to become the Antichrist.

 

[Douggg]

The "time of the end" is the end of each country's reign over Israel. Chapter 8 is about the Greece conquering Mede and Persia. The only king who describes the defiling of the temple and the 2,300 days is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The 2,300 is how long the Jewish revolt lasted for them to cleanse the temple.

"time of the end" is the latter days, latter years, like as used in Ezekiel 38:6 and Ezekiel 38:16 regarding the Gog/Magog event.

In Daniel 10:14, an angel visited Daniel to tell him about what would befall his people in the "latter days". That angel then proceeded to narrate Daniel 11-12. And in Daniel 11 and Daniel 12, the angel used the phrase "time of the end".

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

The only other place in the bible that the term the "time of the end" appears is in Daniel 8:17 regarding the 2300 days and the little horn person.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

 

[Earburner]

The "time of the end" is the end of each country's reign over Israel. Chapter 8 is about the Greece conquering Mede and Persia. The only king who describes the defiling of the temple and the 2,300 days is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The 2,300 is how long the Jewish revolt lasted for them to cleanse the temple.

Yes! "the time of the end" was the END OF the OC, the "Age of Indignation".
The word "covenant" is synonymous with the word "contract". When an old contract fails, or comes to the end of it's PURPOSE, between two parties (in this case, God and man), a NEW contract must be installed.
God did do exactly that, by bringing forward His sacrifice for sin, "the Lamb of God", thus installing His NEW CONTRACT, the "Age of Grace" through Jesus.
That NEW contract will entail NEW features and purposes, thus making the OLD contract null and void of all promises made by both parties. The NEW shall totally make void the OLD.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Antiochus IV did not fulfill the 2300 days time of the end prophecy in Daniel 8.

1. Because he was not time of the end.
2. Because he did not commit the transgression of desolation "act".

Antiochus IV did fulfill placing the abomination of desolation in the temple of Daniel 11:31. That statue image is a typology of what the time of the end abomination of desolation will be.

But Antiochus IV was not the time of the end little horn person. The little horn person must be a Jew who will be anointed the king of Israel to become the Antichrist.




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Daniel 8 and Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a paradigm of the next 7 year period from Daniel 9, 70 A.D. with the second Jewish revolt that lasted from 64 A.D. to 73 A.D. with another defiling of the temple in the middle of that "week." Daniel 7 is the most important "week" involving Israel with the Ancient of Days.

 

[The PuP]

Daniel 8 and Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a paradigm of the next 7 year period from Daniel 9, 70 A.D. with the second Jewish revolt that lasted from 64 A.D. to 73 A.D. with another defiling of the temple in the middle of that "week." Daniel 7 is the most important "week" involving Israel with the Ancient of Days.

I think there is an important point about verse 14 (then shall the sanctuary be cleansed) that I think is missed. It doesn't say the sanctuary would be "clean" at the end of the 2300 days. It says that THEN shall the sanctuary be cleansed. That is when the cleansing of the sanctuary shall begin. And how shall it begin? By a great desolation. An abominable desolation! The 2300 days are the times of transgression leading up to this desolation. The desolation will initiate the cleansing of the temple/sanctuary. How long will the desolation last? Rev 11 says that it will last for 42 months:

Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

So does Luke and Daniel:

Luk 21:24 KJV And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Dan 7:25 KJV And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

He didn't say 3.5 years, but... "and the dividing of time". According to Jewish reckoning of time, there are either 37 or 38 months in any 3 year period. So the 42 months of Rev 11 and Rev 13, equal 3 years and 4 or 5 months. The times of the beast of Rev 13:5 and the desolation of Jerusalem in Rev 11:2 will commence at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings. The children of Israel will walk in transgression (finish the transgression) until the 2300 days end. Then the beast will reign (but not over Jerusalem) for the remaining 42 months.
Be Blessed
The PuP

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think there is an important point about verse 14 (then shall the sanctuary be cleansed) that I think is missed. It doesn't say the sanctuary would be "clean" at the end of the 2300 days. It says that THEN shall the sanctuary be cleansed. That is when the cleansing of the sanctuary shall begin. And how shall it begin? By a great desolation. An abominable desolation! The 2300 days are the times of transgression leading up to this desolation. The desolation will initiate the cleansing of the temple/sanctuary. How long will the desolation last? Rev 11 says that it will last for 42 months:

Rev 11:2 KJV But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Daniel 8 has nothing to do with Revelation 11.

 

[ScottA]

In Chapter 8 of the Book of Daniel, he is given a specific time element in 8:14.......

8:14 "And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

However, the correct translation for "days" is "evenings and mornings."

So, at first glance, it appears this verse is telling us the sanctuary, where the "daily" sacrifice would take place (every morning at 9:AM and 3: PM), would be cleansed in 2300 days. Therefore, this verse is taking us straight to the daily sacrificial services found in Leviticus.

There are not many interpretations on this time element:

1) some have cut the 2300 into 1150 and attempted to bring it back to refer to AE placing a pig on the alter,
2) some or most have converted the 2300 to literal years and interpret it as an end time event... either to the time that Israel has recently become a nation in 1948 or even 1967,
3) the SDA seems to have put alot of thought and energy in this prophecy contending it is also to be converted into years using the "year for a day" principle and having it start the same year of the 70 weeks of years prophecy of 457 BC. This would mean it would end around 1843 /44. At that time, the "heavenly" sanctuary would be cleansed.
4) and some are willing to treat it as literal days, but connect it directly to an end time even in Revelation.

Anyone have an interpretation they would like to share?

The evenings and mornings refers to the foreshadowing given in the days of creation, where all the evenings and mornings refer to all of time.

Spiritually, "twenty three hundred" or "two thousand and three hundred" days, means: All of the darkness and all of the light--earth and heaven are according to the days of creation for number, in three segments, all in all. Then comes the end.

 

[Earburner]

Antiochus IV did not fulfill the 2300 days time of the end prophecy in Daniel 8.

1. Because he was not time of the end.
2. Because he did not commit the transgression of desolation "act".

Antiochus IV did fulfill placing the abomination of desolation in the temple of Daniel 11:31. That statue image is a typology of what the time of the end abomination of desolation will be.

But Antiochus IV was not the time of the end little horn person. The little horn person must be a Jew who will be anointed the king of Israel to become the Antichrist.




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You are stuck on the "time of the end", when the gospel will have been preached to all the world.
But, you did not notice that if Jesus DIDN'T come in the flesh, as the Lamb of God for our salvation, in the time that He did, "the end of the world", by God the Father, would have been right then and there. HIS Grace would NOT have been applied to ANYONE!!
1 Cor. 10
[11] Now all these things happened unto them [Israel] for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world ARE come.

Heb. 9
[26] For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Try to get out from under that pile of "leaven" of the Pharisees, aka "church-ianity". 1 Cor. 2:5.

 

[CTK]

The evenings and mornings refers to the foreshadowing given in the days of creation, where all the evenings and mornings refer to all of time.

Spiritually, "twenty three hundred" or "two thousand and three hundred" days, means: All of the darkness and all of the light--earth and heaven are according to the days of creation for number, in three segments, all in all. Then comes the end.

Thanks for your thougIhts Scott. I would ask that you might consider an alternative interpretation., but please keep in mind this interpretation does not stand alone. However, this response will most likely give that appearance because, as you know, the Scriptures all speak to one major theme and each verse has its own important relationship to many others.

In any event, verse 8:14 has one and only one message to bring us - that the Sanctuary will be cleansed in 2300 evenings and mornings. Therefore, it might be necessary to interpret this phophecy (not going backwards), to discuss some few important terms within this short phrase:

1) What Sanctuary will be cleansed - the earthly or the heavenly?
2) Who is only able to cleanse the Sanctuary? On earth or in heaven?
3) Does the term "evenings and mornings" ensure that one must look at this prophecy as it relates to the "daily" sacrifice - at 9AM and 3PM?
4) Is this a messianic prophecy?
5) Does the answer in #3 above demand this prophecy is in literal days?
6) In the next chapter, Gabriel will give Daniel the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Within that, the mission of the Messiah is found in 924. There is no chapter separations in the Hebrew books so can you see how this verse in Chapter 8 (and many others) speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation?
7) Do you agree that Jesus was baptized on the very first day of the 70Th week of the prophecy, as well as He was anointed by His Father at the Jordan river to BEGIN His ministry?
8) Do you believe the Levitical ceremonies, the Temple, the Sanctuary, the High Priest, the animal sacrifices were a "foreshadowing" of the coming Messiah who would fulfill each and every one of them at His coming? If so, can you see how this prophecy might refer to His coming and the mission He was given by His Father to complete during His brief ministry?

The answers to these questions were / are necessary for one to identify the meaning of this prophecy - it is all about HIM!

Look forward to your response.

 

[Earburner]

The evenings and mornings refers to the foreshadowing given in the days of creation, where all the evenings and mornings refer to all of time.

Spiritually, "twenty three hundred" or "two thousand and three hundred" days, means: All of the darkness and all of the light--earth and heaven are according to the days of creation for number, in three segments, all in all. Then comes the end.

Could you point out the number of each of the three segments, or is it just random since creation? Otherwise, I am not following your line of thinking.

 

[Bladerunner]

But AE is the one who defiled the temple. He died in 164 BC, and wasn't even around in 163 BC. The Jewish revolt was from 167 BC to 160 BC, and they cleansed the temple

depends on the history book you read.....My advice is to look to many historians before standing on any date. As a matter of fact, I should have said around 163 BC. In Historians times, this gives me a year or two play....As you can see the dates are subjective. thanks