Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy

[CTK]

In Chapter 8 of the Book of Daniel, he is given a specific time element in 8:14.......

8:14 "And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

However, the correct translation for "days" is "evenings and mornings."

So, at first glance, it appears this verse is telling us the sanctuary, where the "daily" sacrifice would take place (every morning at 9:AM and 3: PM), would be cleansed in 2300 days. Therefore, this verse is taking us straight to the daily sacrificial services found in Leviticus.

There are not many interpretations on this time element:

1) some have cut the 2300 into 1150 and attempted to bring it back to refer to AE placing a pig on the alter,
2) some or most have converted the 2300 to literal years and interpret it as an end time event... either to the time that Israel has recently become a nation in 1948 or even 1967,
3) the SDA seems to have put alot of thought and energy in this prophecy contending it is also to be converted into years using the "year for a day" principle and having it start the same year of the 70 weeks of years prophecy of 457 BC. This would mean it would end around 1843 /44. At that time, the "heavenly" sanctuary would be cleansed.
4) and some are willing to treat it as literal days, but connect it directly to an end time even in Revelation.

Anyone have an interpretation they would like to share?

 

[TribulationSigns]

None of the above. :-)

 

[CTK]

None of the above. :-)

Great! I would enjoy learning your thoughts....

 

[TribulationSigns]

Great! I would enjoy learning your thoughts....

The points that you suggested above are just man's speculation and suppositions. For the TRUTH is, the prophet Daniel never "EVER" prophesied of the erection of a pagan altar in the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC, nor of Romans in AD 70. An unfortunate penchant of man is that he transposes his own personal ideas onto the Bible.

2nd Peter 1:20

• "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

The prophecy of scripture is not subject to our own private or personal interpretations, since it is the divinely inspired word of the living God, and not subject to the will of man. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and thus interpretations of their words can only be through God's word. Not through man's supposition, not through reading our own imaginations into scripture, and certainly not through the words of secular historians or world news. A sound hermeneutic and ordered exegesis of scripture is paramount in understanding prophesy. And it starts with comparing scripture with scripture, not with man's words. Letting God interpret His own words, not man. Christ referenced Daniel, not Josephus!

Daniel 9:27

• "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Daniel 8:9-14

1. "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
2. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
3. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
4. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
5. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
6. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The continual, or daily was not taken away by Antiochus or Titus or any other man in the past or in the future, but by the spirit Satan. He is the little power (horn signifies power) that should arise and magnify himself in "THE TEMPLE OF GOD" and cast the truth down. Think about it, what truth was in the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in AD 70? Lest we forget, it was "by reason of transgression an host was given against the daily sacrifice." That is the prophesy! Christ further illuminated it declaring, abomination would stand in the Holy Place. The Jewish Temple was NOT the Holy Place of God in AD 70, nor was it brought to desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC. The fact is, neither Titus nor Antiochus Epiphanes is the little horn that God declares shall cast the truth down (Jerusalem didn't have the truth in AD 70), take away the continual (daily), which Jerusalem didn't have to be cast down, throw the place of the Prince down (the Jewish temple was not the place of the Prince in AD 70), and tread down the host for 2300 days, cleaning the Sanctuary.

Sorry, Antiochus doesn't qualify anymore that Josephus qualifies to interpret God's word. That is as disjointed a theory that I have read. No, the well-traveled AD 70 theory is all just a pipe dream, a tradition, a very bad private interpretation that disregards all the Biblical facts, substituting speculations for sound exegesis.

So exactly what sanctuary and the host did the Lord talk about that is being trodden down and being cleansed prior to the Second Coming?

 

[CTK]

The points that you suggested above are just man's speculation and suppositions. For the TRUTH is, the prophet Daniel never "EVER" prophesied of the erection of a pagan altar in the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC, nor of Romans in AD 70. An unfortunate penchant of man is that he transposes his own personal ideas onto the Bible.

2nd Peter 1:20

• "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

The prophecy of scripture is not subject to our own private or personal interpretations, since it is the divinely inspired word of the living God, and not subject to the will of man. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and thus interpretations of their words can only be through God's word. Not through man's supposition, not through reading our own imaginations into scripture, and certainly not through the words of secular historians or world news. A sound hermeneutic and ordered exegesis of scripture is paramount in understanding prophesy. And it starts with comparing scripture with scripture, not with man's words. Letting God interpret His own words, not man. Christ referenced Daniel, not Josephus!

Daniel 9:27

• "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Daniel 8:9-14

1. "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
2. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
3. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
4. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
5. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
6. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The continual, or daily was not taken away by Antiochus or Titus or any other man in the past or in the future, but by the spirit Satan. He is the little power (horn signifies power) that should arise and magnify himself in "THE TEMPLE OF GOD" and cast the truth down. Think about it, what truth was in the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in AD 70? Lest we forget, it was "by reason of transgression an host was given against the daily sacrifice." That is the prophesy! Christ further illuminated it declaring, abomination would stand in the Holy Place. The Jewish Temple was NOT the Holy Place of God in AD 70, nor was it brought to desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC. The fact is, neither Titus nor Antiochus Epiphanes is the little horn that God declares shall cast the truth down (Jerusalem didn't have the truth in AD 70), take away the continual (daily), which Jerusalem didn't have to be cast down, throw the place of the Prince down (the Jewish temple was not the place of the Prince in AD 70), and tread down the host for 2300 days, cleaning the Sanctuary.

Sorry, Antiochus doesn't qualify anymore that Josephus qualifies to interpret God's word. That is as disjointed a theory that I have read. No, the well-traveled AD 70 theory is all just a pipe dream, a tradition, a very bad private interpretation that disregards all the Biblical facts, substituting speculations for sound exegesis.

So exactly what sanctuary and the host did the Lord talk about that is being trodden down and being cleansed prior to the Second Coming?

Thank you for your response. I certainly understand and agree with your comments. But are you saying that the little horn power will "cleanse" the sanctuary when and if a 4rd Temple is constructed in the future?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thank you for your response. I certainly understand and agree with your comments. But are you saying that the little horn power will "cleanse" the sanctuary when and if a 4rd Temple is constructed in the future?

No. Let me explain...

Matthew 21:42-43

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How could these people lose their Kingdom? Only in that the Great Dragon Satan had deceived them (as he had Judas) where they fell away from the Covenant of God. They lost the Kingdom because of unbelief. Meaning, the Spiritual Kingdom wasn't really within them, they simply sampled or tasted of the heavenly gift merely by being Covenanted children to whom the Promises pertained. But without receiving a Spiritual gift or Promise.

John 18:36

• "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

His Kingdom is not of this world, and yet we (His People) live and reign with Christ in heavenly places "in this world." How? Because we, Spiritually speaking, have a spiritual home that is in heaven. And we are this "Kingdom of heaven" represented here on Earth, striving to do God's Will on Earth, as it is in heaven.

Now, why stars? We are symbolized by stars because we are of Christ, who is the bright and morning Star. And we reflect His light to the world as "stars". Just as we are Israel because Christ is the true Israel of God, or we are sons of God because Christ is the true Son of God, or we are the seed because Christ is the Seed, etc., etc. Stars were designated in the beginning of creation as the lessor lights of the heavens, and that is why God uses them to symbolize His messengers like you and me in the congregation. For example, we are the Messengers of light. And Satan's minions are those who come transformed to "appear" as "messengers of light". So we have two different stars in the kingdom. One is Chosen stars and other is fallen stars who is not really God's chosen people. Selah.
So when John says he saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth, that is symbolic language to signify the falling away of the messenger of the Church. Not unlike what we saw in Revelation 12 of the falling away of stars where the dragon hit with his tail representing Messengers of the Old Testament congregation of God losing the Kingdom because of their unbelief! So shall it be near the end of the world, when apostasy shall be in the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATIONS all over the world and that when Satan is loosed, he will cause the stars will fall. Not Literal Stars, but unfaithful people of the kingdom of heaven. In other words, those of the Church or congregation. For example, they are professed Christians!

Here is another example based on your OP:

Dan 8:9-14
(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
(12) And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(13) Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
(14) And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Doesn't it follow that if the stars are not literal stars, then the place they are said to be residing in (heaven) is symbolic as well? Daniel is speaking of the little horn, the Spirit Satan as he is given power for a short season to assault the Church. They being spoken of again as the stars, the host of heaven. The Prince or Ruler of the Host is, of course, Jesus Christ! He is the Prince of the congregation or Church. This is the same cryptic language as found in Revelation of stars falling. Here it pictures Satan's reign as this little horn (small power) waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Clearly this speaks of the people of God's congregation.

And so comparing scripture with scripture, we should not be too surprised about the heaven and stars in Revelation being symbolic also. Even in the context of Revelation 9:1. A star here and there is the Messenger of God's congregation who is responsible for loosening Satan because for their unfaithfulness and apostasy so God will use Satan as a tool of judgment against them prior to the Second Coming. So NOW, what is the spiritual condition of the churches today? Are there the rise of false prophets and christs there? The prophecies are being fulfilled before our eyes... if you have spiritual eyes to "SEE" the abomination of desolation standing in the place but it is not suppposed to be! Selah.

 

[CTK]

No. Let me explain...

Matthew 21:42-43

• "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
• Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How could these people lose their Kingdom? Only in that the Great Dragon Satan had deceived them (as he had Judas) where they fell away from the Covenant of God. They lost the Kingdom because of unbelief. Meaning, the Spiritual Kingdom wasn't really within them, they simply sampled or tasted of the heavenly gift merely by being Covenanted children to whom the Promises pertained. But without receiving a Spiritual gift or Promise.

John 18:36

• "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

His Kingdom is not of this world, and yet we (His People) live and reign with Christ in heavenly places "in this world." How? Because we, Spiritually speaking, have a spiritual home that is in heaven. And we are this "Kingdom of heaven" represented here on Earth, striving to do God's Will on Earth, as it is in heaven.

Now, why stars? We are symbolized by stars because we are of Christ, who is the bright and morning Star. And we reflect His light to the world as "stars". Just as we are Israel because Christ is the true Israel of God, or we are sons of God because Christ is the true Son of God, or we are the seed because Christ is the Seed, etc., etc. Stars were designated in the beginning of creation as the lessor lights of the heavens, and that is why God uses them to symbolize His messengers like you and me in the congregation. For example, we are the Messengers of light. And Satan's minions are those who come transformed to "appear" as "messengers of light". So we have two different stars in the kingdom. One is Chosen stars and other is fallen stars who is not really God's chosen people. Selah.
So when John says he saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth, that is symbolic language to signify the falling away of the messenger of the Church. Not unlike what we saw in Revelation 12 of the falling away of stars where the dragon hit with his tail representing Messengers of the Old Testament congregation of God losing the Kingdom because of their unbelief! So shall it be near the end of the world, when apostasy shall be in the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATIONS all over the world and that when Satan is loosed, he will cause the stars will fall. Not Literal Stars, but unfaithful people of the kingdom of heaven. In other words, those of the Church or congregation. For example, they are professed Christians!

Here is another example based on your OP:

Dan 8:9-14
(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
(12) And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(13) Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
(14) And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Doesn't it follow that if the stars are not literal stars, then the place they are said to be residing in (heaven) is symbolic as well? Daniel is speaking of the little horn, the Spirit Satan as he is given power for a short season to assault the Church. They being spoken of again as the stars, the host of heaven. The Prince or Ruler of the Host is, of course, Jesus Christ! He is the Prince of the congregation or Church. This is the same cryptic language as found in Revelation of stars falling. Here it pictures Satan's reign as this little horn (small power) waxed great, even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Clearly this speaks of the people of God's congregation.

And so comparing scripture with scripture, we should not be too surprised about the heaven and stars in Revelation being symbolic also. Even in the context of Revelation 9:1. A star here and there is the Messenger of God's congregation who is responsible for loosening Satan because for their unfaithfulness and apostasy so God will use Satan as a tool of judgment against them prior to the Second Coming. So NOW, what is the spiritual condition of the churches today? Are there the rise of false prophets and christs there? The prophecies are being fulfilled before our eyes... if you have spiritual eyes to "SEE" the abomination of desolation standing in the place but it is not suppposed to be! Selah.

Ok and thank you.

 

[Earburner]

In Chapter 8 of the Book of Daniel, he is given a specific time element in 8:14.......

8:14 "And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

However, the correct translation for "days" is "evenings and mornings."

So, at first glance, it appears this verse is telling us the sanctuary, where the "daily" sacrifice would take place (every morning at 9:AM and 3: PM), would be cleansed in 2300 days. Therefore, this verse is taking us straight to the daily sacrificial services found in Leviticus.

There are not many interpretations on this time element:

1) some have cut the 2300 into 1150 and attempted to bring it back to refer to AE placing a pig on the alter,
2) some or most have converted the 2300 to literal years and interpret it as an end time event... either to the time that Israel has recently become a nation in 1948 or even 1967,
3) the SDA seems to have put alot of thought and energy in this prophecy contending it is also to be converted into years using the "year for a day" principle and having it start the same year of the 70 weeks of years prophecy of 457 BC. This would mean it would end around 1843 /44. At that time, the "heavenly" sanctuary would be cleansed.
4) and some are willing to treat it as literal days, but connect it directly to an end time even in Revelation.

Anyone have an interpretation they would like to share?

Due to human error of recording past events, any attempt to align biblical prophecy with the actual history, could be off just a little bit of maybe only 1.0 percent. "We know in part"- 1 Cor. 13:9-12.

However overall, the accuracy is derived from the tools of correct measurements, being that of the books of Daniel and 1 Maccabees, with the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, and that of a good knowledge of Ancient History.

In the opening of KJV Daniel 11:1-4
"The Four winds of heaven" is symbolic for the four compass points of the earth, being that of the locations of the "four heads"**, the four divisions of the Grecian Empire, after the death of Alex the Great.
**Note: the four Generals of Alex the Great were: Ptolomey, Cassander, Seleucus and Lysichimus. Dan. 8[8] Therefore the he goat [Alex the Great] waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Using Jewish time of 360 days in a year, the timing of the 2300 day prophecy is found in the words of Daniel 8:13-14.
The 1290 days took place WITHIN the 2300 days, which reveals 730 days (2 years) remaining, in which Antiochus Epiphanes IV troddened down both the army of Israel and the temple.
> Then after, for a period of 280 days, the temple was left in ruins. 1 Maccabees 3:45. But during that time, Judas Maccabeus/Israel continued fighting against king Antiochus Epiphanes, as well as Lysias and Ptolemy. 1 Maccabees 3:27-39

Dan. 8[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary [temple] and the host [army of Israel] to be trodden under foot?
[14] And he said unto me, Unto [the end of] two thousand and three hundred [2300] days;
THEN [for 45 days later] shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

> Now, one must do the math of WHEN Antiochus Epiphanes troddened down the temple and WHEN the host army of Israel) was trodden down also.
(Please see 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4 for the actual dates and times of when and how Antiochus Epiphanes operated in his time of war against Israel).

> The prophetic time frame of the AoD of the temple, and then it's restoration is understood in Dan. 12.
[11] And  FROM the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate [be] SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety [1290] days. Then came 730 days of war against Israel by king Antiochus Epiphanes, and then additional skirmishes of war for 280 days through Lysias and Ptolemey, while the temple was left in ruins by Antiochus].
All of that war with Antiochus Epiphanes, Lysias and Ptolemy totals: 1290+730+280=2300 days.
1290 days- the troddening down of the temple; 730 days- the troddening down of the army of Israel; 280 days- the continuance of war with Antiochus, and then with Lysias and Ptolemy.

> As for the temple restoration (under Judas Maccabeus-the prince of Israel), that was 45 days later, which when added to the 1290 equals 1335 days. However, the 45 days is AFTER the 2300 days, and is not to be included in the math of 2300 minus 1290. (Dan. 8:13-14)
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days. [Which was the 45 days of the temple cleansing of restoration, and its rededication], of which it is celebrated today as Hanukkah.
1 Maccabees 4:36-56
[36] Then said Judas and his brethren, Behold, our enemies are discomfited [in disarray] let us go up to cleanse and dedicate the sanctuary.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings CTK,

2) some or most have converted the 2300 to literal years and interpret it as an end time event... either to the time that Israel has recently become a nation in 1948 or even 1967,

Yes, I believe that it speaks of the 2300 years from BC 334-333, the overcoming of Persian Ram by the Grecian Goat headed up by Alexander the Great, to AD 1967 when the nation of Israel retook Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CTK]

Due to human error of recording past events, any attempt to align biblical prophecy with the actual history, could be off just a little bit of maybe only 1.0 percent. "We know in part"- 1 Cor. 13:9-12.

However overall, the accuracy is derived from the tools of correct measurements, being that of the books of Daniel and 1 Maccabees, with the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, and that of a good knowledge of Ancient History.

In the opening of Daniel 11:1-4
"The Four winds of heaven" is symbolic for the four compass points of the earth, being that of the locations of the "four heads"**, the four divisions of the Grecian Empire, after the death of Alex the Great.
**Note: the four Generals of Alex the Great were: Ptolomey, Cassander, Seleucus and Lysichimus. Dan. 8[8] Therefore the he goat [Alex the Great] waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Using Jewish time of 360 days in a year, the timing of the 2300 day prophecy is found in the words of Daniel 8:13-14.
The 1290 days took place WITHIN the 2300 days, which reveals 730 days (2 years) remaining, in which Antiochus Epiphanes IV troddened down both the army of Israel and the temple.
> Then after, for a period of 280 days, the temple was left in ruins. 1 Maccabees 3:45. But during that time, Judas Maccabeus/Israel continued fighting against king Antiochus Epiphanes, as well as Lysias and Ptolemy. 1 Maccabees 3:27-39

Dan. 8[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary [temple] and the host [army of Israel] to be trodden under foot?
[14] And he said unto me, Unto [the end of] two thousand and three hundred [2300] days;
THEN [for 45 days later] shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

> Now, one must to do the math of WHEN Antiochus Epiphanes troddened down the temple and WHEN the host army of Israel) was trodden down also.
(Please see 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4 for the actual dates and times of when and how Antiochus Epiphanes operated in his time of war against Israel).

> The prophetic time frame of the AoD of the temple, and then it's restoration is understood in Dan. 12.
[11] And  FROM the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate [be] SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety [1290] days. Then came 730 days of war against Israel by king Antiochus Epiphanes, and then additional skirmishes of war for 280 days through Lysias and Ptolemey, while the temple was left in ruins by Antiochus].
All of that war with Antiochus Epiphanes, Lysias and Ptolemy totals: 1290+730+280=2300 days.
1290 days- the troddening down of the temple; 730 days- the troddening down of the army of Israel; 280 days- the continuance of war with Antiochus, and then with Lysias and Ptolemy.

> As for the temple restoration (under Judas Maccabeus-the prince of Israel), that was 45 days later, which when added to the 1290 equals 1335 days. However, the 45 days is AFTER the 2300 days, and is not to be included in the math of 2300 minus 1290. (Dan. 8:13-14)
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days. [Which was the 45 days of the temple cleansing of restoration, and its rededication], of which it is celebrated today as Hanukkah.
1 Maccabees 4:36-56
[36] Then said Judas and his brethren, Behold, our enemies are discomfited [in disarray] let us go up to cleanse and dedicate the sanctuary.

Thank you for your detailed response. I have never heard that interpretation before and certainly not connecting it t to both the 1290 and the 1335 days prophecy. I can not imagine how long it must have taken you to research and study this !!!

 

[CTK]

Greetings CTK,

Yes, I believe that it speaks of the 2300 years from BC 334-333, the overcoming of Persian Ram by the Grecian Goat headed up by Alexander the Great, to AD 1967 when the nation of Israel retook Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thank you!

 

[Earburner]

Thank you for your detailed response. I have never heard that interpretation before and certainly not connecting it t to both the 1290 and the 1335 days prophecy. I can not imagine how long it must have taken you to research and study this !!!

You are welcome.
One must always remember, that when Jesus pointed to Daniel about "the abomination that maketh desolate", He was understanding that it was a literal fulfilled prophecy. Therefore, once a prophecy has been fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again, but it can be used in typology.

Though you may not be ready for this, it should be said now, because there will be much confusion that shall arise around this discussion.

By Jesus' words (quoted from Daniel): "When ye shall see the abomination that maketh desolate....", we should compare it to His words in John 2:18-22
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What SIGN shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his [mortal] body.

Q. According to Prov. 6:16-19 and the seven abominations that are against God the Father Himself, which abomination would be the most grievous to Him?

A. Verse 17: "the shedding of innocent blood".

Yes!! All who were at the cross of Jesus' mortal death, DID SEE that abomination committed against both God the Father and the Son.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Q. According to Prov. 6:16-19 and the seven abominations that are against God the Father Himself, which abomination would be the most grievous to Him?

A. Verse 17: "the shedding of innocent blood".

Yes!! All who were at the cross of Jesus' mortal death, DID SEE that abomination committed against both God the Father and the Son.

This is not what verse 17 says:

Pro 6:17
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

The "shedding of innocent blood" is not an abomination. It's the "HANDS" that shed the innocent blood - murder.

 

[Marty fox]

In Chapter 8 of the Book of Daniel, he is given a specific time element in 8:14.......

8:14 "And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

However, the correct translation for "days" is "evenings and mornings."

So, at first glance, it appears this verse is telling us the sanctuary, where the "daily" sacrifice would take place (every morning at 9:AM and 3: PM), would be cleansed in 2300 days. Therefore, this verse is taking us straight to the daily sacrificial services found in Leviticus.

There are not many interpretations on this time element:

1) some have cut the 2300 into 1150 and attempted to bring it back to refer to AE placing a pig on the alter,
2) some or most have converted the 2300 to literal years and interpret it as an end time event... either to the time that Israel has recently become a nation in 1948 or even 1967,
3) the SDA seems to have put alot of thought and energy in this prophecy contending it is also to be converted into years using the "year for a day" principle and having it start the same year of the 70 weeks of years prophecy of 457 BC. This would mean it would end around 1843 /44. At that time, the "heavenly" sanctuary would be cleansed.
4) and some are willing to treat it as literal days, but connect it directly to an end time even in Revelation.

Anyone have an interpretation they would like to share?

It was 1150 days as 2300 mornings and evening add up to 1150 days due to AE.

 

[TribulationSigns]

However overall, the accuracy is derived from the tools of correct measurements, being that of the books of Daniel and 1 Maccabees, with the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, and that of a good knowledge of Ancient History.

> Now, one must to do the math of WHEN Antiochus Epiphanes troddened down the temple and WHEN the host army of Israel) was trodden down also.
(Please see 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4 for the actual dates and times of when and how Antiochus Epiphanes operated in his time of war against Israel).

Once again, only by an unsound hermeneutic and man made interpretation of the Bible. Because God makes no mention of the erection of a pagan altar in the temple, or Antiochus Epiphanes, or 168 BC, or even AD 70. There is not one word where God speaks of such dates or occurrences. This is another private interpretation of man, unsubstantiated by the Biblical record.

Earburner's interpretation is just man's speculation and suppositions. For the TRUTH is, the prophet Daniel never "EVER" prophesied of the erection of a pagan altar in the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC, nor of Romans in AD 70. An unfortunate penchant of man is that he transposes his own personal ideas onto the Bible.

2nd Peter 1:20

• "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

The prophecy of scripture is not subject to our own private or personal interpretations, since it is the divinely inspired word of the living God, and not subject to the will of man. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and thus interpretations of their words can only be through God's word. Not through man's supposition, not through reading our own imaginations into scripture, and certainly not through the words of secular historians. A sound hermeneutic and ordered exegesis of scripture is paramount in understanding prophesy. And it starts with comparing scripture with scripture, not with man's words. Letting God interpret His own words, not man. Christ referenced Daniel, not Josephus.

Daniel 9:27

• "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Daniel 8:9-14

• "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
• And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
• Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
• And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
• Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
• And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The continual, or daily was NOT taken away by Antiochus or Titus or any other man, but by the spirit Satan. He is the little power that should arise and magnify himself in "THE TEMPLE OF GOD" and cast the truth down. What truth was in the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in AD 70? Lest we forget, it was "by reason of transgression an host was given against the daily sacrifice." That is the prophesy. Christ further illuminated it declaring, abomination would stand in the Holy Place. the Jewish Temple was not the Holy Place of God in AD 70, nor was it brought to desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC. The fact is, neither Titus nor Antiochus Epiphanes is the little horn that God declares shall cast the truth down (Jerusalem didn't have the truth in AD 70), take away the continual (daily), which Jerusalem didn't have to be cast down, throw the place of the Prince down (the Jewish temple was not the place of the Prince in AD 70), and tread down the host for 2300 days, cleaning the Sanctuary.

Sorry, Antiochus doesn't quality anymore that Josephus qualifies to interpret God's word. That is as disjointed a theory that I have read. No, the well traveled AD 70 theory is all just a pipe dream, a tradition, a very bad private interpretation that disregards all the Biblical facts, substituting speculations for sound exegesis.

 

[CTK]

You are welcome.
One must always remember, that when Jesus pointed to Daniel about "the abomination that maketh desolate", He was understanding that it was a literal fulfilled prophecy. Therefore, once a prophecy has been fulfilled, it cannot be fulfilled again, but it can be used in typology.

Though you may not be ready for this, it should be said now, because there will be much confusion that shall arise around this discussion.

By Jesus' words (quoted from Daniel): "When ye shall see the abomination that maketh desolate....", we should compare it to His words in John 2:18-22
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What SIGN shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his [mortal] body.

Q. According to Prov. 6:16-19 and the seven abominations that are against God the Father Himself, which abomination would be the most grievous to Him?

A. Verse 17: "the shedding of innocent blood".

Yes!! All who were at the cross of Jesus' mortal death, DID SEE that abomination committed against both God the Father and the Son.

That is so true! Further to this point, as you know, Jesus was / is our High Priest, our Passover Lamb, our Sanctuary, our Temple, our Lord and Savior. The physical items were a type and shadow of His coming where He would fulfill each as well as to complete His God given requirements of 9:24.

Consequently, I would ask that you might look back to laws in Leviticus which requires that each of those elements MUST be pure / cleansed and free of any imperfections - the Temple, the lamb, etc. Please consider the words in Leviticus that define the term “abomination.”

When Jesus took on the sin of the world He became an “abomination,” an “unclean” thing and had the be taken outside the city. The Temple would have to be destroyed if found unclean. So many parallels.

Jesus is the AOD. And because He was rejected and crucified by His people, God would “make desolate” Himself from them for “the time of the Gentiles.” The Jews would be made “desolate” to their God …. Until He removes the blindness from their eyes (just like Paul, He will give them their end time Damascus experience).

So , if you can accept this, and even if you don’t, I would like to hear your thoughts, I would ask you to continue along these most important lines and consider just how the 2300 days prophecy might apply to Jesus and His plan of salvation for His people and mankind.

Thanks.

 

[CTK]

It was 1150 days as 2300 mornings and evening add up to 1150 days due to AE.

Thanks for your response. Can you please tie this to the cross, the Chapter 9 prophecy, the purpose of the “cleansing of the sanctuary” that was given to Daniel by God in 8:14 that ties into Jesus’ own statements on “when you see,” not referring back some 300 years or so. He is asking His disciples in Matthew, Mark and Luke —- “when you see.” Also, can you connect the AOD to those words from Jesus- “standing in the holy place…”Matthew 24:15, or n Mark 13:14, “standing where it ought not…”

This prophecy, like SO MANY others in Daniel do not speak of secular things like AE or going forward to the end times like bringing in 10 nations or groups like the EU, or a fictitious “anti-Christ” figure or an unscriptural 7 year tribulation, they are relevant to the Messiah… try to figure out how these prophecies speak to Jesus… and His plan of salvation. The 2300 days speaks to our salvation through the Messiah.

 

[TribulationSigns]

1st Corinthians 2:13

• "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

In man's own (carnal) wisdom, he looks at things physically, in a worldly fashion, expecting literal kings, rules, physical holy lands, bricks falling in AD 70, hiding in literal mountains, etc. But the Kingdom of God is not physical Israel, neither is prophesy of it!! And there is no progressive fulfillment to be confusing. Prophesy is confusing because it's meant to be. No one learns it except the Holy Spirit teaches them the truth of it. That's the whole point of 1st Corinthians.

The little horn was not the power of Antiochus in 169BC nor AD 70, it is a horn (power) reserved for a very specific time and purpose.

Revelation 6:11

• "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

This killing of saints going on for this little time, is the little power or little horn of prophesy. It did not occur in 168BC or 70AD.

Revelation 20:3

• " And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

This is the little horn (power) that was reserved for a very specific time. A little time. And Revelation is not talking about AD 70 or Romans knocking over a few bricks. It is the power of Satan, power loosed for a little season. Horn signifies power in scripture. Thus the "little horn" waxing exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land, is the power of Satan coming with all the nations against the saints of the New Testament congregation. Not Israel in AD 70.

Revelations 20:7-9

• "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
• And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
• And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

The Bible is a very spiritual book, to be understood in the light of it's own words, imagery and synergy.

 

[CTK]

Once again, only by an unsound hermeneutic and man made interpretation of the Bible. Because God makes no mention of the erection of a pagan altar in the temple, or Antiochus Epiphanes, or 168 BC, or even AD 70. There is not one word where God speaks of such dates or occurrences. This is another private interpretation of man, unsubstantiated by the Biblical record.

Earburner's interpretation is just man's speculation and suppositions. For the TRUTH is, the prophet Daniel never "EVER" prophesied of the erection of a pagan altar in the temple by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC, nor of Romans in AD 70. An unfortunate penchant of man is that he transposes his own personal ideas onto the Bible.

2nd Peter 1:20

• "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

The prophecy of scripture is not subject to our own private or personal interpretations, since it is the divinely inspired word of the living God, and not subject to the will of man. Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, and thus interpretations of their words can only be through God's word. Not through man's supposition, not through reading our own imaginations into scripture, and certainly not through the words of secular historians. A sound hermeneutic and ordered exegesis of scripture is paramount in understanding prophesy. And it starts with comparing scripture with scripture, not with man's words. Letting God interpret His own words, not man. Christ referenced Daniel, not Josephus.

Daniel 9:27

• "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Daniel 8:9-14

• "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
• And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
• Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
• And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
• Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
• And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The continual, or daily was NOT taken away by Antiochus or Titus or any other man, but by the spirit Satan. He is the little power that should arise and magnify himself in "THE TEMPLE OF GOD" and cast the truth down. What truth was in the physical Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in AD 70? Lest we forget, it was "by reason of transgression an host was given against the daily sacrifice." That is the prophesy. Christ further illuminated it declaring, abomination would stand in the Holy Place. the Jewish Temple was not the Holy Place of God in AD 70, nor was it brought to desolation by Antiochus Epiphanes in 168 BC. The fact is, neither Titus nor Antiochus Epiphanes is the little horn that God declares shall cast the truth down (Jerusalem didn't have the truth in AD 70), take away the continual (daily), which Jerusalem didn't have to be cast down, throw the place of the Prince down (the Jewish temple was not the place of the Prince in AD 70), and tread down the host for 2300 days, cleaning the Sanctuary.

Sorry, Antiochus doesn't quality anymore that Josephus qualifies to interpret God's word. That is as disjointed a theory that I have read. No, the well traveled AD 70 theory is all just a pipe dream, a tradition, a very bad private interpretation that disregards all the Biblical facts, substituting speculations for sound exegesis.

You are indeed correct in so much of what you have written!!!
And you have indeed mentioned many thoughts of many different interpretations… it is difficult to address them all at once because they are so complex and interconnected.

But the one I would like to ask you to consider and discuss is the the taking away of the “daily” or the 2300 days prophecy.

And not to add more confusion to this question, I would ask that you might consider there are a few verses in Chapter 8 that speak of the “daily” to be either taken away or thrown down, etc. They do not speak about the “same event.” They are not necessarily talking about the literal or physical daily sacrifices.

Regarding the one I think you are referring to above… (the most important verse), I would ask you to it was the cross, His willingness to become the Passover Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world, that CAUSED the need for any further animal sacrifices. He was the once and only perfect sacrifice.

Further, Jesus fulfilled the Passover Lamb, the Temple, the High Priest, etc., meaning those “things” were no longer relevant- they had fulfilled their God given mission and were now “done away with.”

Thanks.

 

[Marty fox]

Thanks for your response. Can you please tie this to the cross, the Chapter 9 prophecy, the purpose of the “cleansing of the sanctuary” that was given to Daniel by God in 8:14 that ties into Jesus’ own statements on “when you see,” not referring back some 300 years or so. He is asking His disciples in Matthew, Mark and Luke —- “when you see.” Also, can you connect the AOD to those words from Jesus- “standing in the holy place…”Matthew 24:15, or n Mark 13:14, “standing where it ought not…”

This prophecy, like SO MANY others in Daniel do not speak of secular things like AE or going forward to the end times like bringing in 10 nations or groups like the EU, or a fictitious “anti-Christ” figure or an unscriptural 7 year tribulation, they are relevant to the Messiah… try to figure out how these prophecies speak to Jesus… and His plan of salvation. The 2300 days speaks to our salvation through the Messiah.

I don't believe that there will be any future antichrist of 7 year tribulation.

What I believe Jesus was saying in the Olivet discourse is that when first Century Israel would see the Romany army surrounding Jerusalem what happed during the Days of the Maccabees would soon happen again but this time there would be no Judas Maccabees to save them.

See what Jesus Himself taught below

Matthew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.