Daniel Chapter 8 - the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy

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Douggg

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Biblically speaking, Antiochus lV Epiphanes did die in Iran, but he died in Babylon (now Iraq).
Antiochus IV.died in what is now Iran, not Iraq.

Which is different from where the willful king of Daniel11:36 will meet his end in Daniel 11:45, which will be on God's holy mountain- the temple mount.

The little horn person of Daniel 8:25 will attempt to make war against the Princes of princes - Jesus. Which is what the beast-king of Revelation 16:13-14. Revelation 19:19 will attempt to do. But will be broken.

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


"his image" is the time of the end abomination of desolation statue image of Daniel 12:11-12.

.
 
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Bladerunner

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No, Daniel 11:36-12:13 is not about Antiochus IV.

The willful king of Daniel 11:36-45 is time of the end and cannot be referring to Antiochus IV. In Daniel 11:45, the king meets his end between the seas on God's holy mount - the temple mount. Antiochus IV died elsewhere - in Isfahan, a city in Iran, n 164 BC..

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Daniel 11 is the missing 400 years of the Bible Dan 9:26 to the NT.
 

CTK

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Daniel 11 is the missing 400 years of the Bible Dan 9:26 to the NT.
So 9:27 is not speaking to the Messiah?

1) Did He not “confirm” the New Covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34? If not, then who, when was this “confirmed?” Wasn’t the NC given to any and all at Pentecost?

2) In the “middle or midst” of the last week in the 70 weeks of years prophecy” wasn’t the Messiah “cut off (crucified), and as a result? His perfect sacrifice would put to an end any further need for animal sacrifices and offerings under the Levitical system?

3) As a direct result of His people rejecting and crucifying their Messiah, did not God turn away from His people for the next 2000 years (Time of the Gentiles)? Did not God “make desolate” Himself from His people?

4) Hasn’t God “made desolate” His relationship with His people… until the end of the “time of the Gentiles?” It has still yet to come to an end.

5) Don’t you find just how accurate these prophecies match to the actual events that took place in the last week of the prophecy? The beginning of the 70th week is all about His ministry, His mission, His crucifixion. And within the prophecy, God will also give us the consequences of His crucifixion to the “physical” elements that will be destroyed.

6) Can you see in 24 and 25 of Chapter 9 how God speaks to the “restoration” of everything from Babylon, while 26 and 27 speak to THEIR destruction because they rejected their Messiah?

7) Have you considered that after God puts the the second and the third kingdoms in the rear view mirror (11:1-4), He then continues with the most important kingdom - the 4th or pagan Rome, and begins to reveal this same last week of the prophecy, and then almost all of Chapter 11 speaks to the consequences AFTER the cross to the coming of the “vile” one (the little horn prophesied in Daniel 7 and 8?

8) Simply try and look for the Messiah within these chapter and verses and not anyone else that might be found in our history books. God is giving us His prophecies about His Messiah through the travels of His people from their exile to the complete restoration of His people, His city, His Temple, etc. through the literal 4 kingdoms that has ALL been designed by God to reveal the timing, purpose and consequences of His first coming. NOTHING else is more important than these prophetic events. Almost all of “today’s accepted interpretations” focus either on our historical characters in the past (prior to the cross), or fictitious characters that come more than 2000 years in the future (from the time of the cross).

Step back and ask yourself why God is having Daniel record these prophecies that WILL AND HAVE taken place at the time of the cross.

You do not have to accept ANYONE of my interpretations, but everyone should consider just who, when and why this prophetic book is written to and for!!!

Leave your history books in the history section of the library, they are not needed in this section of the library (religious section). God has given us all the historical information we need to consider around His people’s return to Jerusalem, their complete restoration, His arrival and death, the consequences of their decision and the coming of the little horn who will appropriate His church and preach a very different gospel for over 1500 years!

Look for Jesus in these prophecies- you really can’t miss Him… unless you have brought your history books …
 

1stCenturyLady

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This would mean it would end around 1843 /44. At that time, the "heavenly" sanctuary would be cleansed.
Where in the Bible, the source of truth, does it say that it ever got defiled? I know EGW didn't start the false doctrine of the investigative judgment, so no one can blame her. It came from a prophecy by Hiram Edson.

The 2,300 mornings and evenings is 6.3 years, the first Jewish revolt. Daniel 8 is about Greece and this prophecy is pointing to the defilement of the temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
 
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CTK

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Where in the Bible, the source of truth, does it say that it ever got defiled? I know EGW didn't start the false doctrine of the investigative judgment, so no one can blame her. It came from a prophecy by Hiram Edson.

The 2,300 mornings and evenings is 6.3 years, the first Jewish revolt. Daniel 8 is about Greece and this prophecy is pointing to the defilement of the temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
The 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy reflects the cleansing of the Sanctuary by the sacrifice / blood of the Lamb of God. There is absolutely nothing in the Book of Daniel that speaks to AE, the Ptolemy's, the Seleucids', etc., They certainaly can be found in our history books IN THE PERIOD BETWEEN THE 3RD and the 4TH KINGDOMS.

This prophecy speaks directly to the work of the Messiah and His mission He would fulfill in the last week of the prophecy - as I mentioned in my previous response, look for Him in these prophetic vesres not characters in our history books.


Hebrews 9:11-12:

"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."

Hebrews 9:23 says:

"Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

Hebrews 9:24:

"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."


If you study the last week of the prohecy (70th week), when the Messiah would first arrive on the very first day of the last week and was baptised in the Jordan by John AND was anointed by His Father at the same time, this began His ministry. God purposely "set aside" this final week for Jesus to fuilfill His mission (9:24). The Jews were given the responsibility to restore everything that was either taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians - not only the physical elements such as the Temple, the walls and streets, etc., but also all the Levitical ceremonies, the animal sacrifices, the feast days, all the Sabbaths, etc. And they were completely successful. By the end of the 69th week of the prophecy, everything was fully restored, BUT ONE ITEM. It was the first item taken away by Jeremiah before the Babylonians could obtain it - it was the Ark of the Covenant - the Presence of God in the Sanctuary. Thia was the only element the Jews could not restore.

Every element within the "restoration prophecy" was restored in the exact same reverse order they were either taken away or destroyed, thua, the Ark of the Convenant would be the last item to be restored by the coming of the Messiah AFTER all the other elements were restored - only AFTER the end of the 69th week. Jesus is the only one who could restore the Presence of God in the Sanctuary.

The 70 weeks of years prophecy is about the restoration of His people, His city, the Sanctuary, etc., and the coming of the Messiah at the end of that prophecy (last week). Unfortunately, God knowing His people would reject His Messiah would also include those prophetic verses found in 26 and 27 that would reveal the destruction of these same elements that were restored.

God gave Gabriel the visions and the 70 weeks of years prophecy recorded in the various chapters of Daniel. But it would be Jesus Hinself who would reveal the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy to Daniel. Gabriel had asked God to tell us when these things would happen, but in 8:14, God responded with a very different answer - He gave the time element to the "cleansing of the Sanctuary," not to any of the 4 items asked by Gabriel. God personally gave Daniel the "mareh" vision. This is a short term "appearance or sight vision" that referred to the 2300 time elemnt. Gabriel would be instructed by God to give to Daniel both the "chazon" vision or the long term vision as well as the Chapter 9 prophecy (not vision), and then later the last two visions that make up Chapters 11 and 12,

So, I would ask you and others, once again, to step back and look at these visions, verses, prophecies and how they provide a very consistent, continuing, interreated series of prophecies that speak to the coming Messiah only. They are not meant to be broken up into different periods, either actors during the time of AE or some mythical anti-Christ figure some 2000 years in the future.

These ALL speak to ONE major theme - God's plan of salvation for mankind as told through His people as they return to Jersalem through the 4 and only 4 kingdoms mentioned in the Chapter 2 metal man image. It is all about HIm.... Daniel does indeed interpret Daniel without any assistance friom our flawed history books. By bringing in our history books, we are preventing our interpretations from focusing on the Messiah... we are mixing the common with the holy. Again, God has given us all we need within these 12 chapters to learn of His prophecies that did come true.....
 
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Earburner

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Antiochus IV.died in what is now Iran, not Iraq.
Yes. I had hoped that my edit of my error would have been seen by you, before you read and made your reply to my post.
Thanks anyways for you noticing it with your correction.
Which is different from where the willful king of Daniel11:36 will meet his end in Daniel 11:45, which will be on God's holy mountain- the temple mount.
Antiochus Epiphanes met his end, as I did show in 1 Macabees 6:8-16, whereby no one could help him out if his severe case of depression.

"Temple mount"? That is not how the verse reads. The word "mountain" is symbolic of a kingdom. In this case, it is the kingdom of Israel.
The little horn person of Daniel 8:25 will attempt to make war against the Princes of princes - Jesus.
Actually No! There were "princes" in Israel, however Judas Maccabeus was the "prince of princes", chosen of God to lead Israel to endure through their sufferings and martyrdoms, brought upon them by AE, and then to cleanse the temple and restore the sanctuary of it. In that verse, the "prince of princes" was Judas Maccabeus.
Which is what the beast-king of Revelation 16:13-14. Revelation 19:19 will attempt to do. But will be broken.
The only thing that was "broken", was the spirit of the man called Antiochus lV Epiphanes, who fell into severe and grieving depression, to the point of giving up on his extreme self will and even that of his very own life.
Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
The word "Prince" (of princes) is superimposed in the translation from Hebrew to Englsh. In the Hebrew, there is no upper case letter for the English letter "p", in the word "prince" (of princes). Therefore, in that verse, we should not rush to think that when men are at war with each other, that they are literally doing battle against God Himself.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


"his image" is the time of the end abomination of desolation statue image of Daniel 12:11-12.
Yes! The whole world will suddenly meet Jesus. 2 Thes. 1:7-10.

Nope! The image of the 10H Beast is the United Nations. Compliance is worship.
 
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Douggg

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"Temple mount"? That is notbhow the verse reads. The word "mountain" is symbolic of a kingdom. In this case, it is the kingdom of Israel.
Antiochus IV did not die in the kingdom of Israel either. Even if God's holy mountain meant the kingdom of Israel. Antiochus IV died in Iran.


The battles in Daniel 11:40-44 are a prelude to Armageddon....first diagram. Daniel 11:45... the second diagram.

prelu to armageddon.jpg




between the seas.jpg
 

Douggg

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The 2,300 mornings and evenings is 6.3 years, the first Jewish revolt. Daniel 8 is about Greece and this prophecy is pointing to the defilement of the temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Antiochus IV in Daniel 11:31 placed the historic "abomination of desolation". Differently, the little horn person in Daniel 8:12-13 will commit the time of the end "transgression of desolation" of 2Thessalonains2:4. Then after that, the time of the end "abomination of desolation" will be placed.



2300 days 3.jpg
 

Jay Ross

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prelu to armageddon.jpg

Has anyone considered that the King of the north is actually the president of the USA as identified in Jeremiah 50.

If we draw a line, northwards over the Artic, that it will end up in or near the USA land mass.

But then it all depends on when the Kings of the earth will gather at Armageddon to be judged. I have been suggesting that the kings of the earth will gather at Armageddon in around 20 years' time, whereas the above diagram we are told by its author will occur about 1,020 + years into our future.

We have already seen the prelude event that will draw all the kings to gather at Armageddon, and the Judgement of the kings of the earth will occur around 40 years from that prelude event.

Oh well, we will have to wait and see who might be right.

Shalom
 

Earburner

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The 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy reflects the cleansing of the Sanctuary by the sacrifice / blood of the Lamb of God. There is absolutely nothing in the Book of Daniel that speaks to AE, the Ptolemy's, the Seleucids', etc., They certainaly can be found in our history books IN THE PERIOD BETWEEN THE 3RD and the 4TH KINGDOMS.

This prophecy speaks directly to the work of the Messiah and His mission He would fulfill in the last week of the prophecy - as I mentioned in my previous response, look for Him in these prophetic vesres not characters in our history books.


Hebrews 9:11-12:

"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."

Hebrews 9:23 says:

"Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."

Hebrews 9:24:

"For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."


If you study the last week of the prohecy (70th week), when the Messiah would first arrive on the very first day of the last week and was baptised in the Jordan by John AND was anointed by His Father at the same time, this began His ministry. God purposely "set aside" this final week for Jesus to fuilfill His mission (9:24). The Jews were given the responsibility to restore everything that was either taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians - not only the physical elements such as the Temple, the walls and streets, etc., but also all the Levitical ceremonies, the animal sacrifices, the feast days, all the Sabbaths, etc. And they were completely successful. By the end of the 69th week of the prophecy, everything was fully restored, BUT ONE ITEM. It was the first item taken away by Jeremiah before the Babylonians could obtain it - it was the Ark of the Covenant - the Presence of God in the Sanctuary. Thia was the only element the Jews could not restore.

Every element within the "restoration prophecy" was restored in the exact same reverse order they were either taken away or destroyed, thua, the Ark of the Convenant would be the last item to be restored by the coming of the Messiah AFTER all the other elements were restored - only AFTER the end of the 69th week. Jesus is the only one who could restore the Presence of God in the Sanctuary.

The 70 weeks of years prophecy is about the restoration of His people, His city, the Sanctuary, etc., and the coming of the Messiah at the end of that prophecy (last week). Unfortunately, God knowing His people would reject His Messiah would also include those prophetic verses found in 26 and 27 that would reveal the destruction of these same elements that were restored.

God gave Gabriel the visions and the 70 weeks of years prophecy recorded in the various chapters of Daniel. But it would be Jesus Hinself who would reveal the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy to Daniel. Gabriel had asked God to tell us when these things would happen, but in 8:14, God responded with a very different answer - He gave the time element to the "cleansing of the Sanctuary," not to any of the 4 items asked by Gabriel. God personally gave Daniel the "mareh" vision. This is a short term "appearance or sight vision" that referred to the 2300 time elemnt. Gabriel would be instructed by God to give to Daniel both the "chazon" vision or the long term vision as well as the Chapter 9 prophecy (not vision), and then later the last two visions that make up Chapters 11 and 12,

So, I would ask you and others, once again, to step back and look at these visions, verses, prophecies and how they provide a very consistent, continuing, interreated series of prophecies that speak to the coming Messiah only. They are not meant to be broken up into different periods, either actors during the time of AE or some mythical anti-Christ figure some 2000 years in the future.

These ALL speak to ONE major theme - God's plan of salvation for mankind as told through His people as they return to Jersalem through the 4 and only 4 kingdoms mentioned in the Chapter 2 metal man image. It is all about HIm.... Daniel does indeed interpret Daniel without any assistance friom our flawed history books. By bringing in our history books, we are preventing our interpretations from focusing on the Messiah... we are mixing the common with the holy. Again, God has given us all we need within these 12 chapters to learn of His prophecies that did come true.....
Yes! Jesus Himself is the main character on stage, and most assuredly he should always be our focus in our search through the scriptures. John 5
[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

However, without the recording of history, we would not know in what scene we should find him. The supporting characters on stage do "flesh out" and reveal God's plot of how when and where we are to find Jesus in the scriptures.
You revealed the words that tell us whether we are looking at a short or a long time vision. Surely, with the help of God's Holy Spirit, the time of history comes into play for that.
 

Brakelite

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Greetings again Brakelite,

The SDA view that the cleansing needed to happen in heaven is a strange concept. Jesus suffered crucifixion, death and resurrection and then God exalted Jesus to sit at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne. Jesus is already in the Most Holy and this does not require cleansing, and it certainly did not need cleansing 18 Centuries later. There is no uncleanness in heaven.

Hebrews 10:12–14 (KJV): 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:19–22 (KJV): 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.


Kind regards
Trevor
Do a study on the OT types that pointed to Christ's ministry. Yes, Calvary was the antitype to the passover. In the passover, what took place after the sacrifice of the lamb? Yes, Jesus, the true Lamb, bore the sins of mankind, but where did they go? Does He still have them? What did the priest do with the sins that were confessed over the lamb? Did they simply evaporate? Where did they go? And when did they go there?
There are deeper things to understand than you can imagine.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again Brakelite,
Yes, Jesus, the true Lamb, bore the sins of mankind, but where did they go? Does He still have them?
I am not sure of what you or the SDAs end up with, with this line of thought. Yes, there are many lessons as a result of considering such types as the Passover and the Sin, Trespass, Burnt and Peace Offerings and other aspects of the Law of Moses. All of these sacrifices pointed forward to the death and resurrection of Jesus. I do not know how you transfer uncleanness to heaven, except to say I reject such a concept.
There are deeper things to understand than you can imagine.
I prefer to take one step at a time, rather than attempt to follow SDA reasoning which I find very unusual in many areas. So firstly my initial answer to your question, is that the sins of the faithful are forgiven. Do you agree with this?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Earburner

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Antiochus IV did not die in the kingdom of Israel either. Even if God's holy mountain meant the kingdom of Israel. Antiochus IV died in Iran.
The Jewish historical event committed against THEM, was recorded that Antiochus lV escaped and went to Babylon and died in Babylon.
1 Mac. 6:16.

Dan. 11
[44] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him [vs. 30]: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.[31-32]
[45] And he [Antiochus lV] shall plant [station/position/establish] the tabernacles [temporary tents] of his palace between the seas IN the glorious holy mountain [Israel]; yet he shall come to his end [his death in Babylon], and none shall help him.
 
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Douggg

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The Jewish historical event committed against THEM, was recorded that Antiochus lV escaped and went to Babylon and died in Babylon.
1 Mac. 6:16.

Dan. 11
[44] But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him [vs. 30]: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.[31-32]
[45] And he [Antiochus lV] shall plant [station/position/establish] the tabernacles [temporary tents] of his palace between the seas IN the glorious holy mountain [Israel]; yet he shall come to his end [his death in Babylon], and none shall help him.
The willful time of the end king of Daniel 11:36 will station himself in the glorious holy mountain - i.e. in Jerusalem where temple mount is. There in Jerusalem on the temple mount is where he will meet his end - on the day that Jesus returns.
 

ChristinaL

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In Chapter 8 of the Book of Daniel, he is given a specific time element in 8:14.......

8:14 "And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

However, the correct translation for "days" is "evenings and mornings."

So, at first glance, it appears this verse is telling us the sanctuary, where the "daily" sacrifice would take place (every morning at 9:AM and 3: PM), would be cleansed in 2300 days. Therefore, this verse is taking us straight to the daily sacrificial services found in Leviticus.

There are not many interpretations on this time element:

1) some have cut the 2300 into 1150 and attempted to bring it back to refer to AE placing a pig on the alter,
2) some or most have converted the 2300 to literal years and interpret it as an end time event... either to the time that Israel has recently become a nation in 1948 or even 1967,
3) the SDA seems to have put alot of thought and energy in this prophecy contending it is also to be converted into years using the "year for a day" principle and having it start the same year of the 70 weeks of years prophecy of 457 BC. This would mean it would end around 1843 /44. At that time, the "heavenly" sanctuary would be cleansed.
4) and some are willing to treat it as literal days, but connect it directly to an end time even in Revelation.

Anyone have an interpretation they would like to share?
The SDAs are in error. Days are meant to be read as is. DAYS. 2300 days. To even suggest the "heavenly" sanctuary must be cleansed is to suggest the heavenly city is unclean. The sanctuary spoken of is the soon to be 3rd temple
 

ChristinaL

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I don't believe that there will be any future antichrist of 7 year tribulation.

What I believe Jesus was saying in the Olivet discourse is that when first Century Israel would see the Romany army surrounding Jerusalem what happed during the Days of the Maccabees would soon happen again but this time there would be no Judas Maccabees to save them.

See what Jesus Himself taught below

Matthew 24
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
What Jesus spoke of on the Olivet discourse has nothing whatever to with end times. There is a 7 year Tribulation and there will be an antichrist
 

CTK

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The SDAs are in error. Days are meant to be read as is. DAYS. 2300 days. To even suggest the "heavenly" sanctuary must be cleansed is to suggest the heavenly city is unclean. The sanctuary spoken of is the soon to be 3rd temple
I agree it is days. But please look in Hebrews regarding the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary.
 

CTK

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What Jesus spoke of on the Olivet discourse has nothing whatever to with end times. There is a 7 year Tribulation and there will be an antichrist
Would you mind telling me what verse in Daniel or in the NT that tells us there is a “literal” anti-Christ character that comes upon the earth?

Can you also tell me the verse that gives us a 7 year tribulation?
 

ChristinaL

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I agree it is days. But please look in Hebrews regarding the cleansing of the heavenly Sanctuary.
no the sanctuary in hebrews is the earthly one. So is daniel it will be the third temple that needs cleansing
 

ChristinaL

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Would you mind telling me what verse in Daniel or in the NT that tells us there is a “literal” anti-Christ character that comes upon the earth?

Can you also tell me the verse that gives us a 7 year tribulation?
Daniel 9 including verse 27. Dan 12...actually check these out