Daniel Chapter 2

[CTK]

Many of those visions did happen in Daniels future. The Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 7:23-25 remains in our future.

Sorry, I cannot buy this, as there are certain historical proofs that show how accurate and true Daniels Prophesies were.
The 2300 evenings and mornings, for example; were fulfilled by Antiochus 4th E, the 1150 days that the Temple lay in a desolate state - 167 to 164 BC.

No, you say they were fulfilled by AE. AE and the Ptolemy’s and the Seleucid’s are not in Daniel. They ARE in our history books.

Today’s accepted interpretations DO say that Chapter 11 is almost all about them , but that is only because they are attempting to match the verses in Daniel to our history books, and they are simply trying to match these individuals that come after Greece.

The 2300 days is all about the Messiah…. Just like most of Daniel… but almost everyone treats Daniel as a history book.

 

[CTK]

I am not one who claims any of Daniel's visions will happen in the future.

Daniela was given a few visions but two prophecies- Chapter 9 is a prophecy not a vision, and the 70weeks of years prophecy.
Chapter 7 was a vision that spoke of the 4 kingdoms… meaning it began in Babylon and would end at His second coming. However, most of the verses speak to the

What Daniel is told by an angel falls into a different category of prophecy.

What Gabriel told Daniel in chapter 9 is not an explanation of any of Daniel's visions.

All of Daniel was fulfilled except for the 5th kingdom of the feet and toes, when Messiah came. If you are going to figure out Daniel, sans history, or even the NT, that just seems like going out of the way to avoid history, even though you have to have some history as you seem to agree that Rome is the 4th kingdom, even in Daniel 7.

My personal opinion of Daniel is that Daniel is having repeated dreams of the original dream given to Nebuchadnezzar. I am not that concerned about past history, would be my explanation of Daniel.

I am not saying you are right or wrong in your approach. It is different than most.

I am not one who claims any of Daniel's visions will happen in the future.

Well, the Book of Daniel is first and foremost written to "Daniel's people and Daniel's city," meaning they are relevant to those specific people (Jews) who were taken captive and those who will return back to Jerusalem). That is how God is presenting these prophecies. He is telling us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the earth or see from the time they are taken captive to the end of time. But the majority of these verses / prophecies / visions come to an end at the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. There are 3 time periods in Daniel where any and all of these verses will take place.... and because they had been so difficult to interpret many have been thrown some 2000 years in the future. But many are indeed messianic but not treated as so.

1) first time period is simiple - covers the Jews from Babylon to the Medes-Persians conquering them (606/5 BC to 538/7 BC_ This is the 70 years they are held captive in Babyon.

a) this does not mean that the visons found given to Daniel within these 70 years are limited to these 70 years, it simply covers their physical presence,

2) the second time period is from 457 BC to 33/34 AD. This is the Chapter 9 prophecy that speaks of these same Jews that will return to Jerusalem from Babyon. Again, God is providing Daniel with the visions and prophecies that will affect his people on their physical and spiritual journey back to Jerusalem after Babylon. So most of Daniel is speaking about these 640 literal years (606 BC to 33/34 AD.)

a) If you take a step back you can see this period is God's plan to restore the Jews back to Jerusalem. But because the Jews will reject Him, God has also included within His plan a continuation of the 4th beast kingdom until the time of the end. This period is the "time of the Gentiles."

3) the third and final time period is from the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy to His second coming. This time period covers the period after the cross within the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome, it will continue even after pagan Rome will be slain (7:11). After some years (perhaps around 150 years or so after pagan Rome is slain) the bishop of Rome who has come to rule over the Gentile/Christian church within the Roman Empire will come to full power and reign in both religious and secular matters. The little horn will rule over the 4th beast kingdom that is known as papal Rome until the end of time.

So, the major interpretations within Daniel, according to "today's accepted interpretations," even though there is absolutely NO consensus of opinion among them, is to thrown many into the far future at the end of time because they cannot properly interpret them; they do not conform to our history books so they must be still yet to come.

And this is why I chose to try and interpret Daniel on my own. I say no consensus among the scholars, academics or theologians, I saw they ALL have atttempted to interpret Daniel strictly on a historical basis (how well they could match up the actors and events to our history books), and they failed to try and interpret these verses in Daniel as they might pretain to God's plan of restoration for His people, His city and also for all of mankind through the cross. If you look at today's accepted interpretations, there is very little being considered or matched to the coming Messiah - the most important event in the history of mankind. Instead, people focus on the pure historical approach as if God is interested in giving us His prophecies of the 4 kingdoms, their kings and the meaningless conflicts and wars they have among them. This is about HIM...

The 4 kingdoms are simply the structure where He will place His prophecies. The prophecies are always attached to His people, the Jews as they progress through these 4 kingdoms. The kingdoms are not the story.

What Daniel is told by an angel falls into a different category of prophecy.

What Gabriel told Daniel in chapter 9 is not an explanation of any of Daniel's visions.

Not sure what you mean here.... From Chapter 2 vision to the final vision of Chapters 11 and 12, God is consistently providing us with more information of His plan of restoration and salvation as we move through each chapter. The 4 kingdoms will never change from those given to us in Chapter 2 (the blueprint chapter). He will change the symbols for these kingdoms but only to reveal more or different characteristics so we can place them side by side and be able to see who they truly represent from more than one view

 

[CTK]

All of Daniel was fulfilled except for the 5th kingdom of the feet and toes, when Messiah came. If you are going to figure out Daniel, sans history, or even the NT, that just seems like going out of the way to avoid history, even though you have to have some history as you seem to agree that Rome is the 4th kingdom, even in Daniel 7.

No, there is absolutely no avoidance of history. I am simply not using our history books when the verses speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation - they will not be ever found in our history books. The prophecies will always be found in one of the 4 kingdoms - so I am honoring the actual kingdoms found in our history books that are limited by God's Word - He has decided to bring His prophecies out within these 4 kingdom only.... They are indeed found in our history books. The 4th beast kingdom of papal Rome will and is headed since approximately 540 AD to the end of time. - this is clear - it is found in our history books and is found in the prophecies of Daniel.


What just about every interpreter has done and continues to fight for is they are willing to add to His Words. Most have added additional kingdoms that the 4 - they may add the US or Russia or China or Turkey or even the EU... no! God gave us 4 and only 4 kingdoms to consider. He also identified ALL the actors that will play a part in His plan of salvation WITHIN CHAPTER 2 (the blueprint chapter). The ONLY exception to this is the little horn who will come out of pagan Rome seen in Chapter 7. There is a very specific reason for this ONE departure.... the little horn and papal Rome was not one of the 4 kingdoms or powers that He brought our of the earth or the sea that was in His plan of salvation. This is the evil one that everyone should think of as the "anti-Christ" (even though there is no literal anti-Christ figure). He is the evil one who will appropriate His church that was started in the first century after the cross. His church began when His apostles went out into the world to preach the Good News. It did not take very long until the sheer number of converted Gentiles and pagans who accepted Jesus would take over the church and bring in pagan practices. As they grew in amazing power, this Gentile / Christian church would appropriate His church - it would look nothing like the church preached by Paul.

My personal opinion of Daniel is that Daniel is having repeated dreams of the original dream given to Nebuchadnezzar. I am not that concerned about past history, would be my explanation of Daniel.

I am not saying you are right or wrong in your approach. It is different than most.

This is certainly true... God always repeats and enlarges. The Chapter 2 vision / dream of the metal man image sets the structure where all the actors and events will take place. It gives us the borders and boundaries from top (606 BC) to bottom (end of time). It also establishes the borders between each of the kingdoms - no actor or events will bleed over into the other kingdom. For example, the 3rd kingdom of Greece will include Alexander and his 4 generals. The 4 generals will not bleed outside of the borders of the 3rd kingdom. The 4th kingdom of Rome, even though it would not begin at the end of the 3rd kingdom, would not include those 4 generals but the beginning of the actors and events found only within pagan Rome (approximately80 BC). But the 4th kingdom represents the time when the Jews have been fully restored in Jerusalem. The 70 weeks of years is coming to an end. The ONLY piece of furniture that has NOT been restored from the destruction of Babylon is the Ark of the Covenant. This cannot be restored by the Jews. Only the Messiah could represent the restoration of the presence of the Lord in the Sanctuary. That is why He will arrive on the first day of the last week of the prophecy. The Ark of the Covenant was the first piece of furniture taken away by Jeremiah so it would not be taken to Babylon. Therefore, it would be the very last piece of furniture to be restored. Everything was fully restored in the reverse order they were taken or destroyed.


So, you are indeed correct - Chapter 2 established the blueprint and the later chapters (7-12) speak about them, not so much in the physical sense but in the spiritual sense or in accordance to His plan of salvation. If you follow Chapters 7 and 8, Daniel will quickly dispense with the first 3 kingdoms. Most of the verses are dedicated to the 4th kingdom - pagan and papal Rome. And just to repeat myself, Chapter 11:1-4 follow the same pattern in that it quickly dispenses with the first 3 kingdoms - they are now in our rear view mirror, they will never be mentioned again. Their God given mission has been fulfilled and they are no longer needed. Everything from 11:5 to the end of Chapter 12 is all about the coming Messiah, His rejection, the destruction of the city and sanctuary, the growth of His church through the first 300 years until Constantine, the coming of the little horn who will appropriate His church and continue to the end of time. Chapter 12 picks up at the true end of time - some 1500 years later and reveals the end of things. It will confirm the return of the Messiah and the destruction of the little horn and those who rejected Jesus. It does not go into great details but that is not what the Book of Daniel is mostly about.

For example, you will not find details of major battles between future kingdoms, no planes, bombs, nuclear missiles, conflicts between nations that we have imagined. God has revealed the war in Chapters 11 and 12, and there are only two players involved: God and His Kingdom verse the kingdom of the little horn who preaches a very different gospel. It is a spiritual war... but we will always have physical wars in addition to this most important war for our souls, because we are flawed and that is our human nature. If we do not find the war, the kingdoms, the actors, the results of the war in the Book of Daniel, you will not find it in Revelation. It is a war, a battle between the Kingdom that God set up at the cross versus the church / kingdom set up by the little horn (the prince of the people, the evil one, to come after the cross. He has been doing his thing for 1500 years, and if you interpret some of the time elements given in Daniel correctly, it will proved just how close we are to His return... it is frighteningly close. (no, you cannot predict the hour or the day).

 

[Timtofly]

No, and this is one of the most important finds / interpretations within Daniel. Chapter 2:34 and 2:35 are believed by EVERYONE to represent the stone striking the feet of the image and destroying all 4 kingdoms. And this will occur in conjunction with 2:35 at the end of time when Jesus will return. However, this is one of the most greatly misinterpreted verses in Daniel.

And yet you still get it wrong, no?

Dream:

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Explanation:

"Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

This is not the end of time, and this does destroy the clay, the iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold. None of those kingdoms are around today, nor will ever be again in the future. They are permanently put of the history records or no records. None of them will come back nor be revived. All 5 are fallen and will never come back.

There is no other explanation than when the stone hits all are gone permanently.

Not even the NT could cover the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. The ten toes are not at the end either. It is impossible to force Daniel to say something that no other verses in Scripture can confirm. The 4th kingdom was still in effect, several hundred years after the NT was considered closed with no more additions. Revelation does not cover the ten toes. Revelation does not cover any of the five kingdoms other than to say they have fallen.

 

[CTK]

And yet you still get it wrong, no?

Dream:

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Explanation:

"Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

This is not the end of time, and this does destroy the clay, the iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold. None of those kingdoms are around today, nor will ever be again in the future. They are permanently put of the history records or no records. None of them will come back nor be revived. All 5 are fallen and will never come back.

There is no other explanation than when the stone hits all are gone permanently.

Not even the NT could cover the 5th kingdom of the ten toes. The ten toes are not at the end either. It is impossible to force Daniel to say something that no other verses in Scripture can confirm. The 4th kingdom was still in effect, several hundred years after the NT was considered closed with no more additions. Revelation does not cover the ten toes. Revelation does not cover any of the five kingdoms other than to say they have fallen.

Sorry you feel that way. I believe I have already explained that 2:34 is when the Messiah arrived the first time and broke into pieces the iron from the clay— only.
And 2:35 is the true end times when He returns.

And you still can’t see it and you still insist there are 5 kingdoms. Well, that is okay. Stay with your interpretations… you are in good company. There is no use repeating myself and providing you with details only to have you ignore them completely AND most importantly, you have not once even asked one question to possibly learn more about this new interpretation.

Again, no problem and there does not seem like you have any further need to respond to my interpretations… no problem at all.

 

[Timtofly]

I certainly agree with some of this! But I believe it was the "divided" 4th kingdom of papal Rome that appropriated His church and offered a very different gospel. Their church looked nothing like the church that Paul started.

I don’t think you are much different in this regard than most historist.

If you are going to call the time of papal Rome which lasted almost 1,000 years the 4th kingdom "extended" or "divided by time", then I have no argument. All you are doing is denying the number "5", and stretching 4 into 5 any ways. It may not be exact, but all 5 kingdoms double in the length of time they are relevant. The statue ends at the Reformation regardless. We have been in a 6th kingdom for near 500 years, about the length of the 4th kingdom.

You cannot prove from Scripture that we have been in the 4th kingdom for over 2100 years. You cannot even prove if or when the 4th kingdom did end or even will end.

Perhaps you have explained in the next segment. You would have to explain this verse from some other part of Daniel. I don't think any one can figure this verse out:

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

This is not about the first coming as Messiah, nor the Second Coming as Prince. But Jesus taught his people the interpretation of this verse with parables.

 

[CTK]

I don’t think you are much different in this regard than most historist.

If you are going to call the time of papal Rome which lasted almost 1,000 years the 4th kingdom "extended" or "divided by time", then I have no argument. All you are doing is denying the number "5", and stretching 4 into 5 any ways. It may not be exact, but all 5 kingdoms double in the length of time they are relevant. The statue ends at the Reformation regardless. We have been in a 6th kingdom for near 500 years, about the length of the 4th kingdom.

You cannot prove from Scripture that we have been in the 4th kingdom for over 2100 years. You cannot even prove if or when the 4th kingdom did end or even will end.

Perhaps you have explained in the next segment. You would have to explain this verse from some other part of Daniel. I don't think any one can figure this verse out:

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

I cannot imagine where or how you obtained your understanding of Daniel. It appears that everything that you respond is entirely based on how these verses might / could be matched to our history books. Where is the Messiah in any of your interpretations? Not anywhere. Why? How can anyone fail to consider that Daniel is all about the restoration of the Jews and Jerusalem and how God will bring in His Messiah within those same prophecies that discuss the physical restoration .... amazing.

I really don't have to explain anything since everything that I have mentioned has not been even considered or discussed. I may not have all the answers or some of the answers but I can support everyone of them in the 12 chapters of Daniel - and they all fit together - one seamless picture - no gaps, no missing verses that are not interpreted, no verses that are outside the 4 kingdoms, no verses that are in the wrong time period....

I really do not understand why you continue with this.... you are absolutely convinced of your own interpretations - stay with it... embrace them.


The verse that you mentioned above fits in perfectly with the rest of Daniel's interpretation. This particular verse has a dual intepretation - one physical and one spiritual. The once that is interpreted in a physical manner is in Chapter 2. It is within these 4 kingdoms when the Messiah will arrive (His first time) and set up His earthly kingdom. And that is exactly what took place. The Messiah will arrive on the first day of the last week of the prophecy within the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome. Within 3.5 years of the last 7 years, He will go to the cross and He will set up His kingdom which will never be destroyed - unlike the 4 kingdoms that will be destroyed at the end times.

This also reveals the following: the Jews were chosen by God to receive His Word on Mt. Sinai, obey His commandments, learn about the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were to read, study and put into practice His laws and commandmentd. They were then to go out into the world and preach this one true God to the Gentiles / pagans. But they failed miserably. They kept Him to themselves. God could not entrust the salvation of the world (Gentiles / pagans) to His people. Consequently, God would never again choose another group, another people, anyone on this earth to go out into the world to preach the one true God. Now, He will send His Holy Spirit ONLY, who will never disobey His Fathers's commands. He would come into anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. He would never fail to provide the power to any one individual - unlike the Jews.

At the end of time, after the time of the Gentiles, God will return and destroy all of the metal components and clay found in 2:45.... This is truly the end of time.

The second part of the "dual" application of this interpretation is found in Chapter 7, but this is enough.

This is not about the first coming as Messiah, nor the Second Coming as Prince. But Jesus taught his people the interpretation of this verse with parables.

I have no idea what you are talking about .... From you responses and claims, it does not seem you have studied Daniel but rather took pieces from other interpretations - (today's accepted interpretations which are not in agreement with another) and tried to piece together some end time prophecy. I would seriously suggest you throw away and start over... take each chapter and first try to interpret how each verse, each main scene, etc., speaks to the coming Messiah - His first arrival. It is all there - Here is the outline on the outside of the puzzle box - it is a picture that includes 1000 pieces that, when put together properly, paints the full restoration of the Jews from Babylon. Through this 70 weeks of years prophecy, God will give you the pieces that fits within the 4 kingdoms with most ending 3.5 years before the end of the prophecy. That is the meat of this puzzle box.


How many times does Gabriel have to tell you there are 4 kingdoms? You make it 5 ... you are adding to His Word. You have decided to make the feet and toes another kingdom.... Gabriel does not reveal that.... and neither should you... You just do not understand the interpretation verses to determine the difference between the "dream sequence" verses (big picture / summany verses) and the "interpretation sequence" verses (detail verses) that are to be placed WITHIN those dream sequence verses.

And this is just one more reason "today's accepted interpretations" will never make any sense - they are not only looked at in a purely historical manner but also in a chronological manner.... for example, verses 2;41-43 do NOT come after 2:40 in a chronological manner. They are found to take place within the 4th beast kingdom AFTER THE CROSS. They fit in between verse 2:34 (when the Messiah symbolically breaks apart the iron and the clay) and 2:35 when He returns.

I certainly understand just how difficult it must be for anyone to try and receive these new interpretations given how convinced and accepted it is with "today's accepted interpretation." And it is even more confusing to try and get a point across for one or more specific verses / interpretations because it will conflict terribly with their current interpretations. I would say it would like if I were to tell you that these three pieces of the 1000 piece puzzle belong here - on the left side of the puzzle. However, your interpretation has already place them on the far right side of the puzzle as end time prophecies. There is no way you could or would see how it fits with the other surronding pieces of the puzzle on the left side... because most of the left side of your puzzle pieces have also been places as end time pieces.

One has to start by doing what we all have done as children - first find the pieces with the straight edges and construct the perimeter of the puzzle so all straight pieces have been identified and now work from left to right with the field. That is the only way. And what everyone has failed to do is just that.... they have not considered that Chatper 2 represents all the pieces with straight edges are found there.

Chapter 2 provides the 4 corners (kingdoms), the timings, the borders and boundaries within the puzzle - it divides the picture into 4 separate sections to make it even easier to place those puzzle pieces that belong in one of the 4 kingdoms (sections). But this cannot be accomplished until the outside of the 4 edges of the puzzle is completed first.

 

[Timtofly]

Many of those visions did happen in Daniels future. The Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 7:23-25 remains in our future.

All of what Daniel wrote was future to Daniel. Daniel lived out those 70 years of captivity as written in Jeremiah. Even that was future to a young Daniel leaving his homeland and being subjected to a punishment his father's placed on him. Daniel wrote over a period of 70 years, not all in one year.

Do you not distinguish the writings of Daniel, from his every day life, to his dreams, to then actually talking to an angel?

The fourth kingdom and the fifth kingdom of the feet and toes have already been and gone. There is no getting around that point period. We have been in a 6th kingdom, having a mortal wound since the Reformation. That literally means there is no one world empire controlling all that Rome controlled, including the desert all the way to India. The Roman empire stretched from Great Britain to Pakistan. From parts of Germany to northern Africa. Papal Rome was just a religious extension of the empire, but still a fifth kingdom as the feet of clay and iron. Not even the ten toes remain, but have become modern nations since the French Revolution and the 2 World Wars. Papal Rome is just located in the heart of the city called Rome, in a country called Italy. At the Second Coming and baptism of fire nothing on earth will resemble what we have today, as all the mountains and continents will be moved from their current locations. The only thing left unchanged according to Zechariah 14 is the nation of Israel and Egypt will seemingly be left in place.

"This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

What Daniel wrote was fulfilled, but some fulfillment was a type of what may happen again, as history has a way of repeating itself. Israel can only be restored when Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives at the 6th Seal. Then some of what is left in Daniel about the end will be fulfilled that has yet to be fulfilled. Daniel saw all the way to the GWT Judgment event. But had no details of even the NT Covenant as expressed in the NT. Nor the Day of the Lord other than that was the "time" mentioned in "a time, times, and a half.

 

[Timtofly]

Daniela was given a few visions but two prophecies- Chapter 9 is a prophecy not a vision, and the 70weeks of years prophecy.
Chapter 7 was a vision that spoke of the 4 kingdoms… meaning it began in Babylon and would end at His second coming. However, most of the verses speak to the




Well, the Book of Daniel is first and foremost written to "Daniel's people and Daniel's city," meaning they are relevant to those specific people (Jews) who were taken captive and those who will return back to Jerusalem). That is how God is presenting these prophecies. He is telling us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the earth or see from the time they are taken captive to the end of time. But the majority of these verses / prophecies / visions come to an end at the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. There are 3 time periods in Daniel where any and all of these verses will take place.... and because they had been so difficult to interpret many have been thrown some 2000 years in the future. But many are indeed messianic but not treated as so.

1) first time period is simiple - covers the Jews from Babylon to the Medes-Persians conquering them (606/5 BC to 538/7 BC_ This is the 70 years they are held captive in Babyon.

a) this does not mean that the visons found given to Daniel within these 70 years are limited to these 70 years, it simply covers their physical presence,

2) the second time period is from 457 BC to 33/34 AD. This is the Chapter 9 prophecy that speaks of these same Jews that will return to Jerusalem from Babyon. Again, God is providing Daniel with the visions and prophecies that will affect his people on their physical and spiritual journey back to Jerusalem after Babylon. So most of Daniel is speaking about these 640 literal years (606 BC to 33/34 AD.)

a) If you take a step back you can see this period is God's plan to restore the Jews back to Jerusalem. But because the Jews will reject Him, God has also included within His plan a continuation of the 4th beast kingdom until the time of the end. This period is the "time of the Gentiles."

3) the third and final time period is from the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy to His second coming. This time period covers the period after the cross within the 4th beast kingdom of pagan Rome, it will continue even after pagan Rome will be slain (7:11). After some years (perhaps around 150 years or so after pagan Rome is slain) the bishop of Rome who has come to rule over the Gentile/Christian church within the Roman Empire will come to full power and reign in both religious and secular matters. The little horn will rule over the 4th beast kingdom that is known as papal Rome until the end of time.

So, the major interpretations within Daniel, according to "today's accepted interpretations," even though there is absolutely NO consensus of opinion among them, is to thrown many into the far future at the end of time because they cannot properly interpret them; they do not conform to our history books so they must be still yet to come.

And this is why I chose to try and interpret Daniel on my own. I say no consensus among the scholars, academics or theologians, I saw they ALL have atttempted to interpret Daniel strictly on a historical basis (how well they could match up the actors and events to our history books), and they failed to try and interpret these verses in Daniel as they might pretain to God's plan of restoration for His people, His city and also for all of mankind through the cross. If you look at today's accepted interpretations, there is very little being considered or matched to the coming Messiah - the most important event in the history of mankind. Instead, people focus on the pure historical approach as if God is interested in giving us His prophecies of the 4 kingdoms, their kings and the meaningless conflicts and wars they have among them. This is about HIM...

The 4 kingdoms are simply the structure where He will place His prophecies. The prophecies are always attached to His people, the Jews as they progress through these 4 kingdoms. The kingdoms are not the story.



Not sure what you mean here.... From Chapter 2 vision to the final vision of Chapters 11 and 12, God is consistently providing us with more information of His plan of restoration and salvation as we move through each chapter. The 4 kingdoms will never change from those given to us in Chapter 2 (the blueprint chapter). He will change the symbols for these kingdoms but only to reveal more or different characteristics so we can place them side by side and be able to see who they truly represent from more than one view

I am still unsure why you use time frames using specific dates, unless you give some other reason other than what you think happened. You are going to have to match them up to verses in Daniel, or stop using dates at all.

You keep saying avoid a history book, and then you put history book dates into your post. In seems contradictory to your main argument.

We see there is a period of 49 years, then a period of 434 years that do not get us to the birth of Christ, much less the ministry of Christ after His baptism. And we only know that if we look in a history book. That is one conundrum of Daniel, that is pointed out by those history books you have attempted to dismiss. The 70 weeks would have been over before Jesus was born, even though people attempt to "fudge" the numbers. Per Daniel 9 itself, only Jesus as Messiah and Prince can be the 70th week.

I never claimed Daniel's dreams are the story, nor do I think they are much of a blueprint of the heavenly kingdom that every one claims to understand.

What we see in the book of Daniel is the conflict in the mind (the dreams) of Daniel, and the actual plan of redemption (from God via an angel). Not that the dreams are the plan of redemption. Daniel actually interacted with the spiritual realm in real life, more than most ever will in the Bible, and of course his mind would be working over time when he slept.

I am still not saying you are right or wrong. Obviously I would not make that judgment until after I would ever have a chance to read the fruit of your five year study of Daniel. I agree that talking about it online is difficult as your book is longer than Daniel, as Daniel only takes up 12 pages max, if you only put one chapter per page.

Obviously the 4 kingdoms will never change, that is why they are all in the past, even the 5th kingdom of the feet and toes of both iron and clay. Each one fell, and was replaced by another, or as Daniel explained, they all fell when that stone hit the feet. And nothing was left but the dust blowing around in past history. The Vatican is not papal Rome, but a reminder, the only reminder, left of what once was. Even the modern day restoration of Babylon by Iraq cannot bring all that dust back. At the Second Coming Jesus will place His throne in a Temple in Jerusalem, and that will be the permanent center of any future world empire. It is Jerusalem that had a connection with each and every one of those fallen empires.

 

[CTK]

I am still unsure why you use time frames using specific dates, unless you give some other reason other than what you think happened. You are going to have to match them up to verses in Daniel, or stop using dates at all.

You keep saying avoid a history book, and then you put history book dates into your post. In seems contradictory to your main argument.

We see there is a period of 49 years, then a period of 434 years that do not get us to the birth of Christ, much less the ministry of Christ after His baptism. And we only know that if we look in a history book. That is one conundrum of Daniel, that is pointed out by those history books you have attempted to dismiss. The 70 weeks would have been over before Jesus was born, even though people attempt to "fudge" the numbers. Per Daniel 9 itself, only Jesus as Messiah and Prince can be the 70th week.

I never claimed Daniel's dreams are the story, nor do I think they are much of a blueprint of the heavenly kingdom that every one claims to understand.

What we see in the book of Daniel is the conflict in the mind (the dreams) of Daniel, and the actual plan of redemption (from God via an angel). Not that the dreams are the plan of redemption. Daniel actually interacted with the spiritual realm in real life, more than most ever will in the Bible, and of course his mind would be working over time when he slept.

I am still not saying you are right or wrong. Obviously I would not make that judgment until after I would ever have a chance to read the fruit of your five year study of Daniel. I agree that talking about it online is difficult as your book is longer than Daniel, as Daniel only takes up 12 pages max, if you only put one chapter per page.

Obviously the 4 kingdoms will never change, that is why they are all in the past, even the 5th kingdom of the feet and toes of both iron and clay. Each one fell, and was replaced by another, or as Daniel explained, they all fell when that stone hit the feet. And nothing was left but the dust blowing around in past history. The Vatican is not papal Rome, but a reminder, the only reminder, left of what once was. Even the modern day restoration of Babylon by Iraq cannot bring all that dust back. At the Second Coming Jesus will place His throne in a Temple in Jerusalem, and that will be the permanent center of any future world empire. It is Jerusalem that had a connection with each and every one of those fallen empires.

Thanks. I just read your response to Keraz above. It is abundantly clear we are not able to come together … nothing I have mentioned have caused even a question from you to pursue further.

I am sorry but I rather not continue with you. Best wishes always.

 

[Timtofly]

If you look at today's accepted interpretations, there is very little being considered or matched to the coming Messiah - the most important event in the history of mankind. Instead, people focus on the pure historical approach as if God is interested in giving us His prophecies of the 4 kingdoms, their kings and the meaningless conflicts and wars they have among them. This is about HIM...

I will point out that this is a totally erroneous assumption. In trying to not use history, you have failed to see any fulfillment at all, and have created your own alternate history.

The Messiah came over 1950 years ago. It has been 1994 years since the Cross. No one is expecting the Messiah, accept Israel who got it wrong the first time, as they dismissed the Messiah and wanted the Prince to come part. They then ended up being the people who destroyed Jerusalem, fulfilling Daniel 9:26.

Calling Jesus the Messiah who died on the Cross has nothing to do with being trapped in a history book of human understanding. That is the Gospel message.

Israel will recognize their Messiah when they see the Prince, after they ask why He has wounds in His body.

Also there is no papal Rome going to be around any more. Perhaps you will figure that out after doing a five year study on Revelation?

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but it seems you think the 4th kingdom can only stop when Messiah comes. Technically, Rome as an empire was just starting when the 69 years stopped, and Messiah was born. But the Second Coming is the last half of the 70th week as the Prince to come.

 

[Timtofly]

The verse that you mentioned above fits in perfectly with the rest of Daniel's interpretation. This particular verse has a dual intepretation - one physical and one spiritual. The once that is interpreted in a physical manner is in Chapter 2. It is within these 4 kingdoms when the Messiah will arrive (His first time) and set up His earthly kingdom. And that is exactly what took place. The Messiah will arrive on the first day of the last week of the prophecy within the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome. Within 3.5 years of the last 7 years, He will go to the cross and He will set up His kingdom which will never be destroyed - unlike the 4 kingdoms that will be destroyed at the end times.

I have hardly, or so it seems, explained much about Daniel at all. I have been trying to figure out your reasoning that bypasses all current explanations, and dealing mostly with chapter 2, and not any other chapter, except briefly. Although there have been so many post these last few days, we have been doing leap frog, and probably already have any questions, from either of us answered.

Jesus did not set up an earthly kingdom would be my reply to this post, and that is not what Daniel even said was in the dream.

You think I am stuck on some weird interpretation and not even staying in the text of Daniel when you have made way more claims than I have, that may or may not be orthodox in modern thought.

Read the verse again, and tell me how this is Jesus setting up His earthly kingdom?

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

I don’t see any school of eschatology ever agreeing with each other until that verse has some Scripture to go with it explaining what Daniel actually wrote. This is not an explanation nor interpretation of the dream. This is an added thought.

This is the dream.

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces."

This is the explanation/interpretation.

"Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

The verse about the kingdom is a thought prior to the explanation, but was not in the dream. It is a second thought attempting to interpret the explanation, and not the dream.

But there is no reason to place this added thought just any where into the order of the dream itself. Getting this one point wrong has led to why there are a multitude of modern day views and I don't think an explanation is found in the book of Daniel, but more questions and the mystery only thickens in Daniel, and then Daniel is told to seal up the prophecy until the last days, and then it will be understood.

Yes Messiah was the Atonement for obtaining entrance into the kingdom that was set up by God. Yes the kingdom will be complete and forever at the Second Coming. Yes, that kingdom can be found on earth, but is not on earth, nor is it an earthly kingdom at all, even though it fills the earth like a great mountain. At least not until this creation is over, and we have moved on to another creation.


And yes, I do add points in my post that no one seems to grasp. You can be thankful I don't ask questions, as some feel my questions are misrepresenting their point of view.

Jesus told us about that kingdom that God set up and even when it was set up, sorta. You have to understand the parables, to figure out what Daniel was saying. Applying one's own interpretation will never work. It was set up way before Jesus came to earth. The stone was Jesus, but Jesus was not the kingdom. Yes the Kingdom is spiritual, that is why it is not an earthly kingdom, but it will never be on this earth either. All of the citizens of that kingdom were born on earth, and have filled the earth like a mountain. But the kingdom is not on earth. And one can only become a citizen by the second birth. After one leaves earth they enter that kingdom.

I am trying hard, not to change your mind. One has to figure this out through Scripture, not a post on the internet. What I post does come from Scripture.