Church Bashing

[Brakelite]

I'd suggest starting with the literal Greek definition of hagios.

Much love!

I was thinking of it more in context with Ephesians 5:27 as pertaining to the final state of the church at the second coming. Yet there are different levels it seems to me of hagios. As it pertains to God personally, as it pertains to people, and as it pertains to things. For the church, her final state on sanctification made complete, without blemish, made in the image of Christ.

 

[Brakelite]

Church bashing...
I forgot.

It could become bashing when we suggest that one particular mother has been responsible for the propagation of the doctrine of eternal torment, and all her children have inherited the habit.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Kolasis can mean "punishment". A punishment of final death would be everlasting. But I am eisegeting, which is poor form. I read what I want to read. Why am I doing that? Because I cannot say, "Credo in un Deo crudel", ("I believe in a cruel God").

I asked what the purpose of eternal torment is. It is not rehabilitative. It is not a deterrent, especially if one believes that Man has not the capability of not sinning or of believing in a savior. It is punishment for its own sake. After how many years until justice becomes cruelty? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000? Remember also, that some of your family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, et. al. will not be saved. Can you watch them be tortured and remain sane? God gave me the ability to empathize, and I can't just turn it off. I remember what it was like to be lost. I can't just say, "They can all go to Hell for all I care, as long as I'm saved". This is what we're defending in the name of doctrinal purity.

You are concerned with the weightier matters of mercy and justice. In His justice, He is merciful. Even human men will shout against an inhumane way of suffering any longer than necessary for a criminal put to death for his crimes against society. And men will try to put an animal out of misery quickly rather than leaving it to suffer. So the Eternal Torment doctrine makes some men to be more caring and merciful than God. And it makes unbelievers mad and makes them reject God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No-one has yet established that during the millennium there are living people on the planet. Such a belief compounds the confusion.

Hmm…so when those are raised in the first resurrection and they rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, during which if a man dies at 100 he will be considered a youth who died( before satan is released again for a short time), who will they be ruling and reigning OVER if not the nations…?

 

[BarneyFife]

Hmm…so when those are raised in the first resurrection and they rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, during which if a man dies at 100 he will be considered a youth who died( before satan is released again for a short time), who will they be ruling and reigning OVER if not the nations…?

Rabbit hole

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Rabbit hole

Huh…?
He said no one has proven there will be any humans on earth during the millennium. So I asked who those raised in the first resurrection will be ruling and reigning over for that thousand years with Christ. It does say they will be ruling and reigning. Over who?

 

[Brakelite]

The Bible says God is love. If we use that as the foundation and criteria for every doctrine and belief we formulate as we read scripture, we cannot go wrong. If we understand that God exists for the sake of others... That He is utterly and completely unselfish in everything He does and decides, everything will then make sense, and our penchant for settling upon incomplete and immature conclusions regarding certain biblical teachings would evaporate because God is love will compel us to deeper study built on a foundation that gives the structure of truth a firm and reliable frame-work to complete our faith and our apprehension of God's character.
Eternal torment does not harmonize with God is love. You need to think again.

 

[Brakelite]

Huh…?
He said no one has proven there will be any humans on earth during the millennium. So I asked who those raised in the first resurrection will be ruling and reigning over for that thousand years with Christ. It does say they will be ruling and reigning. Over who?

Who is Christ reigning over now? Does reigning with Him necessarily mean there are others involved, being subservient?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Lol. I don’t know. What does scripture say about the thousand years in relation to your question?

 

[marks]

A separation from what? God, certainly. Would not separation from God also mean separation from life seeing God is the sustainer of life?

Spiritual death is separation from God. Physical death is separation from our body. As for the mechanics of it all I don't know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I was thinking of it more in context with Ephesians 5:27 as pertaining to the final state of the church at the second coming. Yet there are different levels it seems to me of hagios. As it pertains to God personally, as it pertains to people, and as it pertains to things. For the church, her final state on sanctification made complete, without blemish, made in the image of Christ.

Again, I'd say start with that definition, and work outward from there.

I think there is a tendency to equate holiness with moral excellence, and while the two are obviously closely related, they are not in fact saying the same thing, and we need to let the words speak for what they themselves say.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, but some people think we are to pray we are found worthy to escape the time of testing that is coming on the whole world to test all its people.

I think this part relates to the Jews during the tribulation. And I agree with you, many people offer very poor evidence for that pre-trib rapture.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Church bashing...
I forgot.

Well, 44 pages in, it's a free for all.

 

[marks]

So the Eternal Torment doctrine makes men to be more caring and merciful than God. And it makes unbelievers mad and makes them reject God.

So you judge God according to yourself assuming your justice is higher.

That's what you just did.

Men are sloppy and weak and care for themselves, and pretend a mercy that they will give a murderer but not a baby, that they'll save a dog but not a man.

I read today that a man was released on bail following raping a 15 year old boy, and this is higher than God?

You bristle against a judgment you don't understand, and maybe I'm right, and maybe I'm wrong, but I fear the Lord.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Who understands the true nature of evil and sin? Who understands what rebellion against God looks like from His point of view? Who is it who understands with certainty the righteous judgment of God?

Who?

 

[BarneyFife]

Again, I'd say start with that definition, and work outward from there.

I think there is a tendency to equate holiness with moral excellence, and while the two are obviously closely related, they are not in fact saying the same thing, and we need to let the words speak for what they themselves say.

Much love!

What part of holiness is not morally excellent?150 years ago, holiness and moral excellence were practically synonymous. The Summer Of Love and the New Age did a thorough hatchet job on that association. Today holiness is contemptible and moral excellence subjective.

 

[Wrangler]

As for the mechanics of it all I don't know.

I’ve noticed people tend to be biased toward the HOW or WHY as a means to escape the WHAT.

So and so died. Is not accepted unless people know HOW so and so died.

Years ago my sister talked about our father wanting several days notice )when she knows, such as a restaurant reservation) to babysit her children even though he is always home. He already told me about this from his perspective.

She did not want to respect WHAT his wishes were on the grounds she claimed not to know WHY he wanted advance notice.

I replied, ‘You don’t have to know WHY in order to respect WHAT.’

 

[marks]

What part of holiness is not morally excellent?150 years ago, holiness and moral excellence were practically synonymous. The Summer Of Love and the New Age did a thorough hatchet job on that association. Today holiness is contemptible and moral excellence subjective.

Again, they are obviously closely related, but they are not the same words. Each have their own meanings.

OK, I get that not everyone is as big on the meanings of Greek words as I am, even so, I am.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I’ve noticed people tend to be biased toward the HOW or WHY as a means to escape the WHAT.

That's very insightful!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Today holiness is contemptible and moral excellence subjective.

Not to me. And not to many. Basher!