Christ Died for All

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Eternally Grateful

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2020
18,518
9,892
113
59
Columbus, ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A word of advice. If you were a Missionary, you would use the words of those where you are going. Saint Paul said he became All things in hope to win some. What if you went to China, but made them learn your language; before you would Preach to them?

Refusing to use your opponent's Verbage, is an easy way to avoid Truth; an excuse. The 'words' Hypostatic Union is True; you don't Mind using it. If you aren't interested in reaching the heart of the matter, why are you here? I consider myself an ABC 123 mini Theologian who can say the same thing as High Theologians; but in an elementary way. So I HAVE become all things in hope to win some...

Give it a try...
all I am saying is the only people I ever hears use the term prevenient grace and other things like that are Catholics.
'
you usually can not talk to them anyway.

Thats also why I tried to look up words in the other chatroom.
 

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
3,441
608
113
67
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Keiw,
I am struggling to understand your replies. So allow me some questions and please try to answer them clearly?

1. "When you say Jesus' death covers all true believers sins who live now through Armag.. " That means JWs, correct?

2. Do you mean Jesus' blood covers all JWs personal sins? Because it sounds as if you are saying that, but we know that is not what is taught by Jw gov body.

3. As for all of the dead JWs- they don't come under the blood of Jesus because when they died physically- you are saying that their own death is what paid for all of their personal sins ( as well as Adam's sin)? correct? (Romans 6)

4. So it is only a free gift for those who are alive at end of Armageddon, but the dead JWs don't need the free gift because they already paid by dying?

Do I have this straight now?
Only repented sin=stop doing the sin( turn around)( Acts 3:19) is forgiven. Any can do that. But that is only 1 thing a mortal must do to be brought through Armageddon into Gods kingdom and may never taste death( these must pass the final test as well)
All will have their faith tested by satan when he is loosed for a little while. The ones who stand get life everlasting. All deserve death, that is why it is grace.
 

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
3,441
608
113
67
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"These"?" Who are "these" you speak of?
These= the workers of iniquity( one who practices a sin)-they believe( Matt 7:21-23)-- see they will be calling on Jesus to be saved but will hear Jesus say to them as judgement--Get away from me i never even knew you.
 

PS95

Well-Known Member
Jun 16, 2024
1,015
631
113
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Only repented sin=stop doing the sin( turn around)( Acts 3:19) is forgiven.
Of course Christians teach confessing and repenting- 1 John 1:7-9
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

but the watchtower does not teach that Jesus died for all of our sins. They teach that He died for Adam's sin ONLY and only paved the way for us to gain eternal life by our own deaths to pay for our sins.
There is a huge difference there.
I'm glad that you know that Jesus died for all sin. Do you suppose one day the watchtower will come around and see this too? That's what I pray.

Any can do that. But that is only 1 thing a mortal must do to be brought through Armageddon into Gods kingdom and may never taste death( these must pass the final test as well)
All will have their faith tested by satan when he is loosed for a little while. The ones who stand get life everlasting. All deserve death, that is why it is grace.
and so your point is we earn it by getting thru Armageddon---- and for all those people who have already died- they are fine, since they died for their sins already.--- Is that what you are saying?-- I have never known Jws to be Universalists<-- (everyone will be saved), so how could all of the dead people if death paid for their sins not be saved? There must be more to what you believe than that.. ? please explain?

Keiw, this is not what the bible teaches- even your bible! . the entire thing is wrong other than repentance. I know that you believe that those men are teaching God's word accurately - but the mistakes they make are so huge that it makes me want to cry. I wish with all of my heart that I could come to you and just read the bible together and pray. I used to think they were right- but once I prayed about it and began reading my bible in context never jumping around -- it all became clear. It is never good to cherry pick verses and that is what they do, and they string them together for you to form teachings-- but that is not accurate. Most of these are letters in the NT and the context matters. It's a dangerous thing to do it the way they do, as you can make the bible say anything that way-- and many do that including some who say they are Christians. I see it here all of the time. They miss out on so much that the bible is saying. They end up with heresies.
 

Berean

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2024
536
271
63
Midwest
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
These= the workers of iniquity( one who practices a sin)-they believe( Matt 7:21-23)-- see they will be calling on Jesus to be saved but will hear Jesus say to them as judgement--Get away from me i never even knew you.
Well, unless you're running for the high calling in Christ Jesus, this verse doesn't apply to you.
 

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
3,441
608
113
67
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Of course Christians teach confessing and repenting- 1 John 1:7-9
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

but the watchtower does not teach that Jesus died for all of our sins. They teach that He died for Adam's sin ONLY and only paved the way for us to gain eternal life by our own deaths to pay for our sins.
There is a huge difference there.
I'm glad that you know that Jesus died for all sin. Do you suppose one day the watchtower will come around and see this too? That's what I pray.

and so your point is we earn it by getting thru Armageddon---- and for all those people who have already died- they are fine, since they died for their sins already.--- Is that what you are saying?-- I have never known Jws to be Universalists<-- (everyone will be saved), so how could all of the dead people if death paid for their sins not be saved? There must be more to what you believe than that.. ? please explain?

Keiw, this is not what the bible teaches- even your bible! . the entire thing is wrong other than repentance. I know that you believe that those men are teaching God's word accurately - but the mistakes they make are so huge that it makes me want to cry. I wish with all of my heart that I could come to you and just read the bible together and pray. I used to think they were right- but once I prayed about it and began reading my bible in context never jumping around -- it all became clear. It is never good to cherry pick verses and that is what they do, and they string them together for you to form teachings-- but that is not accurate. Most of these are letters in the NT and the context matters. It's a dangerous thing to do it the way they do, as you can make the bible say anything that way-- and many do that including some who say they are Christians. I see it here all of the time. They miss out on so much that the bible is saying. They end up with heresies.
Acts 3:19==Turn around= stop doing the sins
1Cor 6:9-11--This is what some of you were= past tense-these turned around and stopped doing the sins.
 

Berean

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2024
536
271
63
Midwest
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
but the watchtower does not teach that Jesus died for all of our sins. They teach that He died for Adam's sin ONLY and only paved the way for us to gain eternal life by our own deaths to pay for our sins.
There is a huge difference there.
I'm glad that you know that Jesus died for all sin. Do you suppose one day the watchtower will come around and see this too? That's what I pray.
They believe he died for Adam's sin, yet deny that Adam would benefit from that death. The scriptures are clear, Jesus died a "ransom for all." - 1 Timothy 2:6
 

Keiw

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2022
3,441
608
113
67
upstate NY
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They believe he died for Adam's sin, yet deny that Adam would benefit from that death. The scriptures are clear, Jesus died a "ransom for all." - 1 Timothy 2:6
Jesus died to buy back what Adam had lost for mankind. Adam bought sin and death. Jesus bought life everlasting in perfection for those who obey.= Few on this earth.
 

Berean

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2024
536
271
63
Midwest
www.kingdomherald.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus died to buy back what Adam had lost for mankind. Adam bought sin and death. Jesus bought life everlasting in perfection for those who obey.= Few on this earth.
"Few on this earth", eh? You mean Jehovah's Witnesses, right?

Apparently Jesus died ONLY for "faithful" Jehovah's Witnesses, the few, the proud ... congratulations Keiw
 

PS95

Well-Known Member
Jun 16, 2024
1,015
631
113
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Acts 3:19==Turn around= stop doing the sins
1Cor 6:9-11--This is what some of you were= past tense-these turned around and stopped doing the sins.
Kiew,
I agree and have agreed probably 50 times on these boards that we are to repent of sins. I have NO idea why you keep repeating yourself and I have to agree with you again and again and again.
What is missing here? There is some sort of a disconnect.
I show you that Jesus died for YOUR sins and give you scriptures to prove that amazing grace-- and you give me scripture that says to repent. I agree with that.
So, why are you fighting the truth that Jesus died for YOUR sins- not only Adam's sin like the wtbs says?
You see, once you BELIEVE God that Jesus really did die for YOUR sins too-- you should rejoice.
Instead you argue and talk about sins- -- Yes that's the point- SINS?
Is this run around because you are still unsure or afraid of the men of the watchtower?
Believe God and the scriptures-- not the fallible men.

We know we sin- and we should feel guilt over our sins- so when we learn that Jesus died to pay the price for us and removes the penalty- we rejoice and praise God!! We come to him as we are- sinful. Then once we accept His gift- He washes us clean!
we begin to change inside and He helps us to grow- it's a process called sanctification where we are growing and learning and changing, It is all of God. We just cooperate and keep praying. He does this work in us. We pray, we read scriptures and cast all of our worries and fears on Him. He cares! We love Him because He first loved us!! How did he love us? By sending His son to pay for our sins!!! It is amazing and once you get that------------------------------ then you can worry about cleaning up your sins. He will help you.
We can't do it alone. We fail. He has ways that are very different. When I am tempted, I pray and He gives me strength immediately and shows me a way out. We can do nothing without Him!!

Trust Him. Ask him to help you believe HIs truth in the bible. Ask Him whatever you want to ask him! Don't be afraid. Tell Him you have confusion and fears- tell Him you want HIS TRUTH and ONLY HIS TRUTH. Tell him you have a zillion questions- tell Him whatever is going on inside of you. -- be 10000 % honest with Him.
Whatever you do please don't put your trust in man who can't even understand that Jesus died for OUR SINS.
They are wrong wrong wrong on this.
I hope this wasn't too long. I hope you read it. I hope you do it. I am praying for you.
 

PS95

Well-Known Member
Jun 16, 2024
1,015
631
113
Eastern Shore
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They believe he died for Adam's sin, yet deny that Adam would benefit from that death. The scriptures are clear, Jesus died a "ransom for all." - 1 Timothy 2:6
I know that's what they teach..
But our friend, Keiw has been beginning to see that Jesus died for all sins. We have to truly believe God.. the thing is and I say this from experience being raised in WT teachings- that the years rote learning- the constant repetition of the same pet verses over and over all out of context- it gets you-- It does something-- to your brain .. it wires it. it's not good and it's a real thing that happens to people.

You can read the scriptures given to you, but if they disagree with the "wiring" you feel fear and reject it. You tell yourself things like- it can't really mean that, or there has to be more to it, or I will have to ask a jw elder. so many thoughts go thru the mind that it shuts down. It's very hard. I could give Keiw 40 verses about Jesus dying for our sins, and I have, but sinking them deep into the heart is very hard because of the wiring.
I feel so badly for these people. Been there. I would not wish it on an enemy.
You see how Keiw answers- it's programming -- the wiring talking. He can't help it.

When I cried out to God, I was shaking- I asked Him for His truth, and I told Him I was afraid, and He helped me. It was a long road, but he was there. I began reading only my bible in CONTEXT and it started to make sense to me! I was floored once I was done Romans. Then I kept going and Ephesians jumped off the pages and it kept going...! I wrestled with Paul and James over works but it soon became clear too- They agree. I had to constantly tell myself not to get ahead of myself because I would start to worry about things like the trinity or blood or what bible to trust- I actually used the nwt and nasb side by side for years... -- so many other things. I had to stay focused and pray and allow Him to teach me more. I praised Him and prayed and waited. When He teaches you - you know! Put all of my trust in Him as my refuge.
We really do need to lay down our burdens and take His yoke and learn from him. That's not in the bible for nothing, It is truth! It is so amazing.... Be like a little child and just believe what we read, and stop picking away at it. It will come together if we are patient and keep praying. Nothing like it in the whole wide world!

All I want for Keiw is to be set free in Christ. That's all.- because that's everything.
 

Christian Soldier

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2024
1,019
205
63
36
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Yahweh’s love for the sin- cursed and dying race has been made operative through the gift of his Son to be man’s Redeemer. In John 3:16 we read, "God So loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This text limits the receiving of everlasting life to those who "believe." But, as Paul asks, "How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14) And the same apostle also explains that the "god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:4) This indicates that as long as Satan continues to rule this "present evil world," even those who do hear the Gospel imperfectly presented do not have a fair opportunity to believe.

One of the biblical words used to describe the redemptive work of Christ is "ransom," and Paul explains that a knowledge of the ransom will be testified to all in due time. To Timothy he wrote: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there Is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the ma Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."—1Ti 2:3- 6

The sequence stated in this text is most revealing. Paul says that it is God’s will that all shall first be "saved" and then come to a "knowledge of the truth." So far as eternal salvation is concerned, it must be based upon a knowledge 01 the "ransom for all" and a belief and obedience in harmony therewith. What, then, does Paul mean by being "saved’ before coming to a knowledge of the truth? Obviously this is reference to the fact that in order to have a genuine opportunity to know about the "ransom for all," the entire unbelieving world will need to be "saved," or awakened from the sleep of death.

It will be after the people are awakened from death, as Paul indicates, that the glorious truth of the ransom and the manner in which is gives evidence of God’s love will be testified" to them. That will be the "due time" when the "sea" will be converted unto the Lord. Satan, the great deceiver, will then be bound, and the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth. Then the way will be made plain, So plain that "wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein."—Isa 35:8 The word "ransom" means a price to correspond, or a price to offset. When Adam sinned he was a perfect man, the "son of God." (Luke 3:38) God’s just law, demanding an "eye for an eye,”a”tooth for a tooth,”a”life for a life,”meant that if Adam was to be redeemed another perfect man would have to take his place in death. (Exodus 21:23,24; Deuteronomy 19:21) It was for this purpose that Jesus was made flesh—a perfect human being, "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.’ ‘—Gal 4:4; Hebrews 7:26 The claim has been made that Adam was not redeemed by the blood of Christ because he was a willful sinner. The fact is that if Adam had not sinned willfully God could have forgiven him without a ransom. It was because God loved him despite his willful sin that, in order to give him another opportunity for life, he sent Jesus to be a ransom for him. Addressing those who have believed on Jesus and have already accepted the provisions of the ransom, Paul wrote, "If we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26) From this it is clear that if another sacrifice for sin were to be made, the willful sin of those who now have a knowledge of the truth would be atoned for, and they could return to harmony with God if they wished. It is only because there will be "no more" sacrifice for sin that the reconciliation of present willful sinners will never be possible. Jesus atoned for the willful sin of Adam, So Adam will be awakened from the sleep of death and given another opportunity to live forever.

Adam’s children inherited his sin and the sentence of death which came upon him because of his disobedience. (Romans 5:12) Thus, when Jesus redeemed Adam, it meant that he also redeemed his offspring, who lost life through him. Paul explains the philosophy of this, saying: "If by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even s by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all mer [including Adam] unto justification of Iife."—Ro 5:17- 19 Christ stated that he came to give his life a "ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28) The Greek text reads, "the many.’ The word "many" as used in this text means an indefinite large number. In the Greek it is polus, and it was this word which Jesus used when he said to his disciples, "The harvest truly is plenteous [polus], but the laborers are few.’ (Matthew 9:37) This contrasting use of the word polus strongly indicates that it denotes a great number, and what better word could Jesus have used to describe the countless millions whom he came to ransom by his precious blood?

The Apostle Paul emphasizes the largeness of this number when he says that Jesus gave himself a ransom for "all"—that is, for the entire human race. This does not mean, o course, that the entire human race will be eternally saved as result of the ransom, for it Is mandatory that there be an individual acceptance of this provision of Jehovah’s grace ii order to receive everlasting benefit from it. But the provision has been made for all; and because of this no one will remain in death because of Adam’s sin, for all have been ransomed therefrom.
If Christ died for all, then it means that He's a liar. Why would He die for someone and then cast them into the lake of fire to be tormented forever.
It just doesn't make any sense, I don't share your view that Jesus would die to save someone, only to go back on His promise and torment them in the lake of fire instead.
 

One 2 question

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2023
1,276
444
83
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If Christ died for all, then it means that He's a liar. Why would He die for someone and then cast them into the lake of fire to be tormented forever.
It just doesn't make any sense, I don't share your view that Jesus would die to save someone, only to go back on His promise and torment them in the lake of fire instead.
Yet when those in the lake of fire eventually repent and seek their Creators forgiveness, the blood of the Christ will cleanse them ALL of all their sin. Then all will be reconciled to their wonderful, gracious, loving Creator.

Why would God show mercy and extend His grace to these sinners in the LOF? Because He's not willing for any to be seperated from Him and that all to be saved from a never ending suffering and torment and join Him in His never ending kingdom.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NotTheRock

NotTheRock

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2024
565
356
63
49
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yet when those in the lake of fire eventually repent and seek their Creators forgiveness, the blood of the Christ will cleanse them ALL of all their sin. Then all will be reconciled to their wonderful, gracious, loving Creator.

Why would God show mercy and extend His grace to these sinners in the LOF? Because He's not willing for any to be seperated from Him and that all to be saved from a never ending suffering and torment and join Him in His never ending kingdom.

You mean I won't get to help Jesus torture the bad people in Hell?

bang-head.gif