Christ Died for All

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Berean

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Does Jesus's death cover the personal sins of believers or only Adams sin?
The Bible teaches that Jesus was an exact equivalent to Adam. Adam chose to sin, and as a result, all humanity, represented in him, also sinned, as stated in 1 Timothy 2:14 and Romans 5:12-14. Jesus' death was meant to address the consequences of Adam's deliberate sin, which made both Adam and his descendants guilty in the eyes of Divine Justice. Consequently, all of humanity is seen as guilty due to Adam's choice. Jesus sacrificed himself for the sin of Adam and all his descendants. Adam owed Divine Justice a perfect human body, life, the right to live, and life rights; these are precisely what Jesus relinquished when he paid the ransom. Since only Adam possessed these four perfect attributes, the sacrifice Jesus made was specifically for Adam.

Divine Justice demands a precise equivalent for a debt, and the only individual besides Jesus who possessed a flawless human body, life, and the right to life was Adam. Therefore, when providing the ransom, Adam was the sole person for whom Jesus could directly offer the equivalent price. If Adam were not seen as redeemable, God could not have required a perfect human to serve as the corresponding price, since Jesus does not represent the imperfect human race when considered separately from Adam. Consequently, there would be no equivalent price for the fallen race unless it is viewed as part of Adam, redeemed through him. One perfect human cannot serve as the corresponding price for billions of imperfect humans when considered individually. It is only by recognizing these billions as having been perfect in the perfect Adam that God could demand a perfect human as the corresponding price, who contained a perfect race within him. This demonstrates that Adam was the primary subject of the ransom, while the rest of humanity was only indirectly involved because they were part of Adam. For them, Jesus provided a perfect race that was yet to be born, contained within His own being.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Yahweh’s love for the sin- cursed and dying race has been made operative through the gift of his Son to be man’s Redeemer. In John 3:16 we read, "God So loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This text limits the receiving of everlasting life to those who "believe." But, as Paul asks, "How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14) And the same apostle also explains that the "god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:4) This indicates that as long as Satan continues to rule this "present evil world," even those who do hear the Gospel imperfectly presented do not have a fair opportunity to believe.

One of the biblical words used to describe the redemptive work of Christ is "ransom," and Paul explains that a knowledge of the ransom will be testified to all in due time. To Timothy he wrote: "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there Is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the ma Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."—1Ti 2:3- 6

The sequence stated in this text is most revealing. Paul says that it is God’s will that all shall first be "saved" and then come to a "knowledge of the truth." So far as eternal salvation is concerned, it must be based upon a knowledge 01 the "ransom for all" and a belief and obedience in harmony therewith. What, then, does Paul mean by being "saved’ before coming to a knowledge of the truth? Obviously this is reference to the fact that in order to have a genuine opportunity to know about the "ransom for all," the entire unbelieving world will need to be "saved," or awakened from the sleep of death.

It will be after the people are awakened from death, as Paul indicates, that the glorious truth of the ransom and the manner in which is gives evidence of God’s love will be testified" to them. That will be the "due time" when the "sea" will be converted unto the Lord. Satan, the great deceiver, will then be bound, and the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth. Then the way will be made plain, So plain that "wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein."—Isa 35:8 The word "ransom" means a price to correspond, or a price to offset. When Adam sinned he was a perfect man, the "son of God." (Luke 3:38) God’s just law, demanding an "eye for an eye,”a”tooth for a tooth,”a”life for a life,”meant that if Adam was to be redeemed another perfect man would have to take his place in death. (Exodus 21:23,24; Deuteronomy 19:21) It was for this purpose that Jesus was made flesh—a perfect human being, "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.’ ‘—Gal 4:4; Hebrews 7:26 The claim has been made that Adam was not redeemed by the blood of Christ because he was a willful sinner. The fact is that if Adam had not sinned willfully God could have forgiven him without a ransom. It was because God loved him despite his willful sin that, in order to give him another opportunity for life, he sent Jesus to be a ransom for him. Addressing those who have believed on Jesus and have already accepted the provisions of the ransom, Paul wrote, "If we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26) From this it is clear that if another sacrifice for sin were to be made, the willful sin of those who now have a knowledge of the truth would be atoned for, and they could return to harmony with God if they wished. It is only because there will be "no more" sacrifice for sin that the reconciliation of present willful sinners will never be possible. Jesus atoned for the willful sin of Adam, So Adam will be awakened from the sleep of death and given another opportunity to live forever.

Adam’s children inherited his sin and the sentence of death which came upon him because of his disobedience. (Romans 5:12) Thus, when Jesus redeemed Adam, it meant that he also redeemed his offspring, who lost life through him. Paul explains the philosophy of this, saying: "If by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even s by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all mer [including Adam] unto justification of Iife."—Ro 5:17- 19 Christ stated that he came to give his life a "ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28) The Greek text reads, "the many.’ The word "many" as used in this text means an indefinite large number. In the Greek it is polus, and it was this word which Jesus used when he said to his disciples, "The harvest truly is plenteous [polus], but the laborers are few.’ (Matthew 9:37) This contrasting use of the word polus strongly indicates that it denotes a great number, and what better word could Jesus have used to describe the countless millions whom he came to ransom by his precious blood?

The Apostle Paul emphasizes the largeness of this number when he says that Jesus gave himself a ransom for "all"—that is, for the entire human race. This does not mean, o course, that the entire human race will be eternally saved as result of the ransom, for it Is mandatory that there be an individual acceptance of this provision of Jehovah’s grace ii order to receive everlasting benefit from it. But the provision has been made for all; and because of this no one will remain in death because of Adam’s sin, for all have been ransomed therefrom.
Universalism is wrong. You evidently don't understand what "death" is!
The wages of sin is death. We all suffer physical death, ; but spiritual death (a separation from God and judgment of destruction) is what Christians, believers are ransomed from. Not all will be saved! It is clear in scripture. The Judgment of unbelievers ( the tares, chaff) means at death, they go to Hades ( Sheol - which is much deeper than six feet), a place of darkness and torment, a prison/ dugeone - the underworld. At the end of time, they are thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. Hades, ( and everyone in it) and Death itself will be destroyed in THE LAKE OF FIRE.
One must have to ignore and/ or distort much scripture to accept Universalism. John's heavenly vision in Revelation of a multitude in heaven that no one could number were all washed with the blood of Jesus. You must believe _ in the life _ that Jesus died for your sins, was buried and rose from the dead. This revelation/ enlightenment from God either is realized on this life or not at all. He lifts the veil of blindness so that you can see. And then you confess your sins and ask for forgiveness _ then He washes your sins away. This can only happen while you are alive and breathing.
With your mouth, you confess. When you are physically dead, you cannot. Obviously _ at death _ being still conscious, ( the soul being immaterial), when you are ushered into darkness and fear and torment come upon you quickly, you realize you made a big mistake! BUT IT IS TOO LATE! YOUR SPIRITUAL STATE IS FIXED! JESUS SAID, THERE IS ONE LIFE, ONE DEATH AND THEN THE JUDGMENT! There is no purgatory, no second chance to change yiur mind after death comes. Death is the judgement. One is saved from that or not.
Universalism seems to offer a "Get out of jal free" card to everyone. It is sending a false promise to everyone regardless of their beliefs, religion, how they lived their lives, whether wicked and evil or not. So then they they think, " Great, I don't really need God or Jesus now, I can live and believe however I want."
Jesus warned us about death, judgment ... the Gehenna. He cursed the Pharisees saying "White washed tombs ... brood of vipers ... Who will save you from the Gehenna" ( Hell).
Damnation is real. Souls will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. There is hope for eternal life until you die, then your fate is sealed.
 

Keiw

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You haven't answered my question Keiw. I will repost it for you below--
Does Jesus's death cover the personal sins of believers or only Adams sin?

As to your comment, Romans 6 is definitely and absolutely NOT teaching us that we can cover our sin debt with our dead bodies. . Only a perfect spotless lamb can pay for our sins. Are you perfect and spotless? No. That is JESUS.

We all die ( not all will, but most) We are not all saved. Our deaths do not pay our sin debt.
2nd death= lake of fire.. the death that Jesus saves us from.
please read carefully..ok?

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, means that what you have EARNED<-- ( a wage) is death. It is your just due. You get what you deserve. Your wage is death. You are not paying for anything. You are being paid. It is your wage!

the rest of the sentence is ,
........... but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
What Paul is saying is it's your choice-- you have a choice, Keiw- Go to Jesus and he will pay your sin debt or will DIE IN YOUR SINS.
Choose wisely Keiw. I beg you. The watchtower men are WRONG WRONG WRONG!
Jesus death cover all true believers sins who live to see Armageddon and stand faithful, thus those will be brought through and may never taste death.
2nd death comes after satan is loosed and he tests the faith of the resurrected, many will fall.
It is a free gift because ALL deserve death, but not all taste it.
The JW teachers are correct.
 

PS95

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Jesus death cover all true believers sins who live to see Armageddon and stand faithful, thus those will be brought through and may never taste death.
2nd death comes after satan is loosed and he tests the faith of the resurrected, many will fall.
It is a free gift because ALL deserve death, but not all taste it.
The JW teachers are correct.
Keiw,
I am struggling to understand your replies. So allow me some questions and please try to answer them clearly?

1. "When you say Jesus' death covers all true believers sins who live now through Armag.. " That means JWs, correct?

2. Do you mean Jesus' blood covers all JWs personal sins? Because it sounds as if you are saying that, but we know that is not what is taught by Jw gov body.

3. As for all of the dead JWs- they don't come under the blood of Jesus because when they died physically- you are saying that their own death is what paid for all of their personal sins ( as well as Adam's sin)? correct? (Romans 6)

4. So it is only a free gift for those who are alive at end of Armageddon, but the dead JWs don't need the free gift because they already paid by dying?

Do I have this straight now?
 

PS95

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The Bible teaches that Jesus was an exact equivalent to Adam. Adam chose to sin, and as a result, all humanity, represented in him, also sinned, as stated in 1 Timothy 2:14 and Romans 5:12-14. Jesus' death was meant to address the consequences of Adam's deliberate sin, which made both Adam and his descendants guilty in the eyes of Divine Justice. Consequently, all of humanity is seen as guilty due to Adam's choice. Jesus sacrificed himself for the sin of Adam and all his descendants. Adam owed Divine Justice a perfect human body, life, the right to live, and life rights; these are precisely what Jesus relinquished when he paid the ransom. Since only Adam possessed these four perfect attributes, the sacrifice Jesus made was specifically for Adam.

Divine Justice demands a precise equivalent for a debt, and the only individual besides Jesus who possessed a flawless human body, life, and the right to life was Adam. Therefore, when providing the ransom, Adam was the sole person for whom Jesus could directly offer the equivalent price. If Adam were not seen as redeemable, God could not have required a perfect human to serve as the corresponding price, since Jesus does not represent the imperfect human race when considered separately from Adam. Consequently, there would be no equivalent price for the fallen race unless it is viewed as part of Adam, redeemed through him. One perfect human cannot serve as the corresponding price for billions of imperfect humans when considered individually. It is only by recognizing these billions as having been perfect in the perfect Adam that God could demand a perfect human as the corresponding price, who contained a perfect race within him. This demonstrates that Adam was the primary subject of the ransom, while the rest of humanity was only indirectly involved because they were part of Adam. For them, Jesus provided a perfect race that was yet to be born, contained within His own being.
Hi Berean,
Yes I know that you are still a member of the "Bible Students" of Charles Taze Russell- the group that JW religion came out from years ago.
But I can not agree with that stance, simply because the many scriptures make it so very clear that Jesus' blood covers OUR SINS.
Here is where we do agree-- It is for everyone like you say, but we must believe & repent.

Here are just a few-
Eph 1:7- He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of His Son and forgave our sins.

1 John 1:7
..But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light then we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Col 2:13-
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

1 Cor 6::9-11 ... Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Ro 4:25
He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Ro 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one offense, resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the gracious gift arose from many offenses, resulting in justification.

1 Peter 2:24- He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

Isa 53:5 -6
But He was pierced for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed

6We all like sheep have gone astray,

each one has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid upon Him

the iniquity of us all.

There are many more, but I think I'll leave it here. We really need to believe the scriptures and not anything or anyone else.
I know you pride yourself on being a berean, and I am not going to debate this further since it is so clear.
I Just pray that you & Keiw can accept and rejoice this basic good news truth.

We must believe this-- He is more than worthy!

If you would like the other scriptures that teach us this- I will be happy to supply them to you. just ask.
 

Eternally Grateful

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When you say 'except'; that's not everybody...

I don't know why y'all hang on so hard. You can't even say 'for All' without an asterisk 'Unbelief'...


I'm also known as ReverendRV...
well of course. Because not everyone will believe. But he died for their sin. They will be condemned as Jesus said in John 3 because of unbelief. Not because of murder or adulty or pride or bearing false withness.. etc etc.

Welcome Brother!!:)
 
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Hey You!

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well of course. Because not everyone will believe. But he died for their sin. They will be condemned as Jesus said in John 3 because of unbelief. Not because of murder or adulty or pride or bearing false withness.. etc etc.

Welcome Brother!!:)
I've been here for a little while. I'm not your average 5-Point Calvinist, so you will like some of the things I say. For instance, what you say here. Christ did Die for All; even for those who commit the Unpardonable Sin...

Yet I'm still a Calvinist. All Murders, etc will take their part in the Lake of Fire; people go to Hell for each and every one of their Sins...
 

Eternally Grateful

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I've been here for a little while. I'm not your average 5-Point Calvinist, so you will like some of the things I say. For instance, what you say here. Christ did Die for All; even for those who commit the Unpardonable Sin...

Yet I'm still a Calvinist. All Murders, etc will take their part in the Lake of Fire; people go to Hell for each and every one of their Sins...
I got that from the other chatroom.

This place can be pretty rough..

I like 1 cor for this.. And such were some of you. But you were washed. etc etc.

David and Moses were both murderers.

if you look at great white throne, I see them judged for their works. Not their sins. And they were cast out because their name was blotted from the book of life.

I guess it comes down to. why was their name removed?
 

Eternally Grateful

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No one's name has been removed from the Book of Life...
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

I believe everyone's name is originally wrote in. As Christ died for them all

When they die in unbelief (when they do not overcome the world by their faith) their name is blotted out

1 John 5: For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
 

Hey You!

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Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

I believe everyone's name is originally wrote in. As Christ died for them all
Only a Believer's name is written in the Book of Life. You are using a Positive Statement, to try and prove a Negative. No one's name has ever been blotted out of the Book of Life, when you say that the Rocky and Weedy Soils never had Faith?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Only a Believer's name is written in the Book of Life. You are using a Positive Statement, to try and prove a Negative. No one's name has ever been blotted out of the Book of Life, when you say that the Rocky and Weedy Soils never had Faith?
they did not.

True faith does not fade away. Because its not in self. its in God.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful

these people never had true faith. Its why it had no root. the root is Christ. that root can not be broken
 
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they did not.

True faith does not fade away. Because its not in self. its in God.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful

these people never had true faith. Its why it had no root. the root is Christ. that root can not be broken
This means that only the Good Soil has Faith. It also means that the other Soil's names were never written in the Book of [Eternal] Life; right?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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This means that only the Good Soil has Faith. It also means that the other Soil's names were never written in the Book of [Eternal] Life; right?
They never were saved so they remained dead in Adam. As for the book of life. I don’t think we agree but that’s fine

I think my days on reformed chat are numbered. The mod who Asked me to stay is now accusing me based on his theology. And calling me worldly. It’s sad
 
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They never were saved so they remained dead in Adam. As for the book of life. I don’t think we agree but that’s fine

I think my days on reformed chat are numbered. The mod who Asked me to stay is now accusing me based on his theology. And calling me worldly. It’s sad
Just be nice; 'Road House' rules...

Yes we disagree. The other Soils never had Eternal Life, to even be stricken from the Book of Life; because they never had Faith. They were never in the True Vine, as you think. The Syllogism is, "It takes Faith to be in the True Vine, to have Life; thus they were never in the Book of Life since you say they never had Faith"...

Perhaps you disagree, because you really believe that the Rocky and Weedy Soils had Faith? I'm being Nice; but in my decades of online debate, I've seen Double Speak happen...

Years ago, no one would say that Faith goes before Grace; THOUGH THEY REALLY BELIEVED IT! I finally talked one to climb out on a limb, and he did; he said he believed in what I call 'Prevenient Faith', as opposed to Prevenient Grace. Since then, many have done the same thing. But I did it on purpose; it proves they were Lying about what they really think; so they can start again on others later, when I'm not looking...

They would say, 'You're right about this, and your right about that; we just disagree'. Well if I'm right, why does their disagreement not make them wrong?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Just be nice; 'Road House' rules...

Yes we disagree. The other Soils never had Eternal Life, to even be stricken from the Book of Life; because they never had Faith. They were never in the True Vine, as you think. The Syllogism is, "It takes Faith to be in the True Vine, to have Life; thus they were never in the Book of Life since you say they never had Faith"...

Perhaps you disagree, because you really believe that the Rocky and Weedy Soils had Faith? I'm being Nice; but in my decades of online debate, I've seen Double Speak happen...
If they had faith they would have produced fruit.

What we call them is people who play church for awhile. But never had root (christ) so when life happens. They disapear .
Years ago, no one would say that Faith goes before Grace; THOUGH THEY REALLY BELIEVED IT! I finally talked one to climb out on a limb, and he did; he said he believed in what I call 'Prevenient Faith', as opposed to Prevenient Grace. Since then, many have done the same thing. But I did it on purpose; it proves they were Lying about what they really think; so they can start again on others later, when I'm not looking...

They would say, 'You're right about this, and your right about that; we just disagree'. Well if I'm right, why does their disagreement not make them wrong?
Your talking words again.

Previenient this or that.

This means nothing to me.. It sounds catholic is I am honest. They like using big words.
 
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Your talking words again.

Previenient this or that.

This means nothing to me.. It sounds catholic is I am honest. They like using big wowords.
A word of advice. If you were a Missionary, you would use the words of those where you are going. Saint Paul said he became All things in hope to win some. What if you went to China, but made them learn your language; before you would Preach to them? A Missionary would learn their language...

Refusing to use your opponent's Verbage, is an easy way to avoid Truth; an excuse. The 'words' Hypostatic Union are True; you don't Mind using it. If you aren't interested in reaching the heart of the matter, why are you here? I consider myself an ABC 123 mini theologian who can say the same thing as High Theologians; but in an elementary way. So I HAVE become all things in hope to win some...

Give it a try...
 
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