Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test (are you insane?)

[Helen]

So, we have all "fallen for the trap" that lforrest warned us about , just another of the 'RC's v the Protestants' Threads...YAWN....

As much as I admire and respect the great and godly men who have gone before us.
The quote (which I have not checked out yet) "It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist.." Is not a scripture!!
Neither was Spurgeon always 100% right...he was just a fallible as any other man or woman. Just because he said it...and just because the quote was in giant size font...does not make it correct or right!!
He did not have 'all truth'. The only one who ever had all truth and was Truth...while walking this earth is The Lord Jesus Himself!!

Let God be The Judge....who are we?!!
Let is get our own life right perfect.

 

[aspen]

Iforrest, oppose the Catholic church on what grounds? That it is dishonest? Corrupt? Bigoted? Yes, we do see such things presented here, and with good reason. But, opposing the Papacy (the union of the Catholic church with the secular state) as the Antichrist of Bible Prophecy? We don't see hardly any of that, because most Christians today, according to Spurgeon, are insane. They refuse to acknowledge the significance of these facts:

1) Since the time of Luther, though Protestants had differences of opinion over various Bible topics, without exception they believed and taught the eschatological interpretation of Historicism, including Spurgeon, which identifies the Papacy as Antichrist.

2) The popular "left behind theology" of Jesuit Futurism is traced right back to the Vatican in a time when Historicism had so devastated the power and influence of the Papacy that the only solution was to convince Christians to look elsewhere for Antichrist - to the past (Preterism), the Future (Jesuit Furturism), anywhere but Rome.

3) Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism resulted from men arrogantly disregarding the cardinal rule of Hermeneutics - that we are to lay aside our beliefs and prayerfully seek God to reveal to us truth from His Word - as they approached the Bible seeking to defend what they believed was their "holy" Papal institution. Anyone who professes to be a Protestant but subscribes to either of these ideas is unfortunately guilty of the same.

Wow.....that is some kind of crazy talk!

 

[tabletalk]

Question:
Since the Papacy has always boasted that it is God's institution on Earth which takes the place of Christ --
...and the word "Antichrist" literally means "take the place of Christ" --
...and Leviticus 19:17 KJV says you actually hate your brother deep in your heart if you fail to rebuke him of his error ---
...isn't it true that Protestants here who love to esteem themselves as bastions of love and compassion yet want this thread closed, are actually manifesting hatred toward their fellow Catholic?

Here's a link you might be interested in: Reformed Churchmen: Mr. (Bp.) J.C. Ryle: "Why Were Our Reformers Burned?"

 

[Stranger]

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is NO SANE MAN ought to raise the question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome, there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name (Antichrist). If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this Church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, FOR IT SO EXACTLY ANSWERS THE DESCRIPTION."
--- Charles Spurgeon

According to the great Charles Spurgeon, anyone who subscribes to "Jesuit Futurism" aka "Left Behind Theology" which essentially teaches that Antichrist is a single man who will arise at the end of time during the "last seven years of tribulation"...IS INSANE. How right you are, Mr. Spurgeon, for anyone who is so foolish to believe Jesuit theology - which sole purpose is both the destruction of Protestants and Protestantism by the attempt to clear the Papacy of all Biblically based charges that it is the Antichrist - over believing Bible theology, which in no uncertain terms proves by description the identity of the Antichrist as being none other than the Papacy, MUST BE INSANE. Only an insane person would pay homage and respect to an organization which is bent on his destruction.

In those last days there will be many anti-Christian movements. But, that doesn't mean the anti-Christ is not a person. (Rev. 13:18) is clear that anti-christ will be a person. "...Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." And along with him will be a 'false prophet' who is also a man. (Rev. 19:20) " And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

The whore of (Rev. 17) will be an apostate Christianity. But it is not just composed of the Roman Church. It will probably be a unity of all churches. There is much wrong in the Roman Church today. And there is much wrong in the Protestant Churches. Yes, I hold to the rapture, after the rapture with all believers gone, with the Church gone, there is nothing to stop the decay of those left behind.

My point is, Spurgeon was wrong in this.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Any reference to the Greek word "Anti-" will reveal that it means "for", "in behalf of", "in place of", "in the stead of". "Antichrist" literally means "for Christ", "in stead of Christ", "in behalf of Christ", "in place of Christ". It also means "against Christ" which is exactly what any institution is by default when it takes to itself the titles, attributes, and prerogatives of Christ.

As for the Antichrist coming out of Mecca, that is not Biblical. The Antichrist was predicted to arise not out of the Muslim world, but from within the Christian church itself, which is where the Papacy arose - right from the midst of the church.

So what does ANTI mean?
You kind of contradicted yourself with your last explanation.
First you said it means FOR or IN BEHALF OF or IN PLACE OF.
Then you said it literally means FOR CHRIST.
Then you said it also means AGAINST CHRIST.
This is not very clear.
How could I trust anything else you say?

In the Latin and romance languages, ANTI means Against.

Mecca. Do you think Revelation is supposed to be taken LITERALLY!
John is retelling visions he saw.
Where does it say the Anti-Christ will come out of the Christian world?
I think I had already asked this.

 

[Helen]

I agree with lforrest and Aspen...this is just another 'rant' thread, that does nothing but stirs up bad feeling.
It is not educating, entertaining, enlightening or uplifting one bit. Just one more person with a their own personal bent. Sigh.

I very much doubt that it thrills God's heart.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with lforrest and Aspen...this is just another 'rant' thread, that does nothing but stirs up bad feeling.
It is not educating, entertaining, enlightening or uplifting one bit. Just one more person with a their own personal bent. Sigh.

I very much doubt that it thrills God's heart.

Jesus said we are not to know the day.
He said there will be signs. It seems like those signs have Always been present.
I've never understood what good it does to talk about the end times.
This must be why I've never interested myself in this topic.

 

[Stranger]

Ones understanding of these things of the last days are important. They will play a role in all of ones interpretation of the Bible. To ignore it is to limit oneself in the understanding of Scripture. Plus they play a role in ones sanctification. How? (John 3:2-3)

Consider this. (Mark 13:32) "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

That was Christ in His earthly ministry. But later look what was said. (Rev. 1:1) "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass...."

God gave to Christ the revelation of the Book of Revelation. And Christ passed it on to John. The book of Revelation is about those last days. And it is to be read and studied. (Rev. 1:3)

Stranger

 

[DPMartin]

You are free to post whatever you want so long as it conforms to the standards of forum rules, friend.

As for Spurgeon's position, he is absolutely correct in identifying the Papacy as the Antichrist b/c the word Antichrist means exactly "take the place of Christ", which is exactly what the Papacy claims to do. Thank God there is hope for even those who make this claim - they must turn from this blasphemous philosophy and trust Jesus alone.

Christians everywhere are "watchmen on the wall" and are obliged to sound the alarm when confronted with false doctrine, lest the blood of those who perish in false doctrine shall be on the watchmen's hands.

sorry you speak as one who has his head up his back side.

the papacy claims to be a stand-in in respect to the place Peter held as head of the ministry of Grace hence carried into the church of Rome. believed to be done so by Peter's and Paul's deaths in Rome and then brought to peace with roman authorities via the sign of the Cross to Constantine, never through out its history did a Pope claim to be a replacement for Christ, no matter how corrupted they may have become in their history.

one should note that on the Cross King of the Jews was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin note the most influential languages through most of the "Christian" History except for English after colonization and the KJV available to the public, and the English influence has only been the last few hundred years of over 1800 years.

and again anyone with computer can find that your stuff ain't getting it.

the devil has been deceiving the whole world about the Truth of God since A&E, get with the program will ya.

 

[amadeus]

Ones understanding of these things of the last days are important. They will play a role in all of ones interpretation of the Bible. To ignore it is to limit oneself in the understanding of Scripture. Plus they play a role in ones sanctification. How? (John 3:2-3)

One can study it and read for years and still miss much of the meaning within it. Believe me, I know. The Light is brighter than is was for me, but there is still darkness which needs to be removed or brightened.

Consider this. (Mark 13:32) "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

That was Christ in His earthly ministry. But later look what was said. (Rev. 1:1) "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass...."

Indeed, and much is already understood from it by those who follow the Lord and pay attention. Not every person is the best of students of the Bible, but he/she may nonetheless closer to God than many who are good students of scripture. God does not look at our ability or our education, but at our hearts. He looks to see if we are available to do whatever it may be that He wants us to do.

God gave to Christ the revelation of the Book of Revelation. And Christ passed it on to John. The book of Revelation is about those last days. And it is to be read and studied. (Rev. 1:3)

Stranger

Yes, read and study, but even having done so, without the quickening of the Holy Spirit, in the end of the matter will it all be for naught? The Pharisees who walked during Jesus' physical lifetime on planet Earth were probably good Bible students, but for the most part they did not know God and they did not know His Son.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Is this not the reason there are so many who know scripture without really knowing God? They study the Bible in the ability of their brains without surrendering their hearts to God.

 

[Stranger]

One can study it and read for years and still miss much of the meaning within it. Believe me, I know. The Light is brighter than is was for me, but there is still darkness which needs to be removed or brightened.



Indeed, and much is already understood from it by those who follow the Lord and pay attention. Not every person is the best of students of the Bible, but he/she may nonetheless closer to God than many who are good students of scripture. God does not look at our ability or our education, but at our hearts. He looks to see if we are available to do whatever it may be that He wants us to do.



Yes, read and study, but even having done so, without the quickening of the Holy Spirit, in the end of the matter will it all be for naught? The Pharisees who walked during Jesus' physical lifetime on planet Earth were probably good Bible students, but for the most part they did not know God and they did not know His Son.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Is this not the reason there are so many who know scripture without really knowing God? They study the Bible in the ability of their brains without surrendering their hearts to God.

We will always be studying the Bible here and never learn it all. It is not that we 'miss' some things. We just are not ready to learn some things. The Holy Spirit is involved in our learning and it is a building process. As we are told in (Is. 28:9-10), "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:"

Like it or not, our spiritual maturity involves knowledge of the written Word of God. Not 'just' knowledge...but knowledge of it is necessary for spiritual maturity. One can be one week old in the Lord and be 100% spiritual; but not mature. He knows one thing, (John 3:16) and he is faithful with what he knows. And he is a joy to God. If in 5 years, (John 3:16) is still all he knows, then something is wrong. He is no longer a joy to the Father. He refuses to grow. We recognize the Bible is the Word of God and apply ourselves to study it. We have the Holy Spirit to help us. We have the people of God to help us. God will in turn bring us through many difficult experiences where we must apply our faith and what we have learned in the Bible about God. And slowly but surely we mature. Knowledge of the Word plus the experiences of our faith grow our maturity. (Heb. 5:11-14)

Just because there are some who study the Bible for the wrong purpose, does not give the believer the excuse to not study the Bible. In fact, all the more reason to study the Bible. The more knowledgeable you are in the Bible the more God can use you. The apostle Paul was a man for the time. He had a thorough knowledge of the Old Testament. And he needed it to combat the Pharisees who also had it.

Ignorance of the Bible is not spirituality. Many believers act like it is so. Don't bother them with doctrine or Bible study, they know Jesus and that is all they need to know. That is fine, as I said, if you are one day old in the Lord. It is not fine if one has been a believer for several years.

(Is. 28:9-10) "Line upon line. Here a little and there a little." (2Tim.2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God...." (Heb. 5:11-14) "...ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God;..."

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is NO SANE MAN ought to raise the question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome, there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name (Antichrist). If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this Church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, FOR IT SO EXACTLY ANSWERS THE DESCRIPTION."
--- Charles Spurgeon

According to the great Charles Spurgeon, .................

GREAT Charles Spurgeon? Who was a Baptist? The Baptist belief which started 1600 years after Jesus died? Really? What about the great Clement, Ignatious or Polycarp?

Ugg.....Here we go again. The Protestants are right and the Catholics are wrong.

You wanna know why the Protestants are right and the Catholics wrong?

As a Catholic you have to believe, practice and accept doctrine/dogma ABC and you have to accept authority.

As a Protestant you are your own authority and you can believe ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ and still be "right".

As we all KNOW, Jesus didn't have authority.... the Apostles didn't have the AUTHORITY to teach what Jesus told them to other men. The 'other men' didn't have authority to teach it to other men.......They were all allowed to believe and teach ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

The Apostles and the men they taught were Protestants.

The men that were taught by the Apostles didn't have to teach, believe and practice the doctrines the Apostles taught them.....they could change their beliefs/practices/teachings as the wind blows. Whatever makes them FEEL right. Whatever THEY thought was true....Makes sense to me.

My two cents worth.........Mary

 

[Helen]

@Marymog Feel better now that that is now off your chest. Hope so.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog Feel better now that that is now off your chest. Hope so.

It always feels good to get THE TRUH off your breast.....wouldn't you agree?

Are you stalking me or do you have something worthwhile to say?

Curious Mary

 

[Helen]

Are you stalking me or do you have something worthwhile to say?

Curious Mary

I just read all the 'new posts'...so I happened to read this one, and there you were.

 

[Helen]

Are you stalking me or do you have something worthwhile to say?

Curious Mary

I just read all the 'new posts'...so I read this one, and lo, there you were.

If you read post #21 you'd have seen that I agree..it is not a worth while thread.
Sadly some just can't resist it.

 

[Marymog]

I just read all the 'new posts'...so I read this one, and lo, there you were.

If you read post #21 you'd have seen that I agree..it is not a worth while thread.
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

Hi BG,

I did read post #21 and #26.

You have posted your thoughts TWICE. I only posted my thoughts ONCE.

I agree with BOTH of your post...I just have a different spin (if you will) on it.

I also agree with post #36...SADLY some just can't resist it....With an emphasis on sadly. ;)

Love, Mary

 

[Phoneman777]

Where does it say he will arise out of the Christian Church?
And why the Pope?

I don't know too much about this but I do know that it's very unlikely that ANYTHING will come out of Rome. It's not efficient or organized enough.

Hi friend, John says plainly from where Antichrist arises. It is what Spurgeon and every single other Protestant believed about Antichrist until just about 100 years ago when Protestantism began to go insane and start believing Jesuit lies about some future Antichrist at the "last 7 years of tribulation".

1 John 2:18-19 KJV
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Also Paul warns of the same:

1 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Jesus' Second Coming and our Gathering to Him) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed..."

"Falling away" is literally the Greek "Apostasia" from which we get the English "apostasy" which of course means "turning away from truth".
From where does apostasy originate? In error that exists outside the church or the truth which resides within the church?

"...the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

The "temple" is from the Greek "naos" which is the same Greek word Paul uses over and over to refer to the church. They may rebuild a temple in Jerusalem and start offering lambs and all that but such as that would be a national middle finger in the face of God by a national rejection of the Lamb of God who was sacrificed 2,000 years ago, and would never be referred to by God or Paul as the "temple of God" - the "temple of God" in which Antichrist arose and now sits is the church.

Paul further states:
Acts 20:29-30 KJV
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

 

[GodsGrace]

GREAT Charles Spurgeon? Who was a Baptist? The Baptist belief which started 1600 years after Jesus died? Really? What about the great Clement, Ignatious or Polycarp?

Ugg.....Here we go again. The Protestants are right and the Catholics are wrong.

You wanna know why the Protestants are right and the Catholics wrong?

As a Catholic you have to believe, practice and accept doctrine/dogma ABC and you have to accept authority.

As a Protestant you are your own authority and you can believe ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ and still be "right".

As we all KNOW, Jesus didn't have authority.... the Apostles didn't have the AUTHORITY to teach what Jesus told them to other men. The 'other men' didn't have authority to teach it to other men.......They were all allowed to believe and teach ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

The Apostles and the men they taught were Protestants.

The men that were taught by the Apostles didn't have to teach, believe and practice the doctrines the Apostles taught them.....they could change their beliefs/practices/teachings as the wind blows. Whatever makes them FEEL right. Whatever THEY thought was true....Makes sense to me.

My two cents worth.........Mary

Hi Mary,

I agree with what you've said above although I am Protestant in my theology and doctrine. No Church has everything 100% biblically correct, or at least what I can see as biblically correct after studying both church's theology and doctrine, I am very torn but feel the Protestant view is closer to what Jesus might have wanted, but that also is being changed too much.

I read thru the CCC but there are many paragraphs regarding this.
I once asked a priest if Catholic believe in the rapture and he replied No.
It does seem very clear from scripture. He explained that it only means that one will be saved, and one will not.

Could you capsulize what the Catholic Church believes regarding the end times?
I know that the belief is that Jesus will come at the end and that there will be an Anti-Christ. I should say THE anti-Christ who will be a man that will promise peace, or unity, but at the price of apostacy.

I almost see this happening today with the HyperGrace and WoF movement.

Please confirm.

 

[KBCid]

What is the purpose of this topic except for prodestants to oppose the Catholic church? This forum has enough of that already.

When I signed in I did not see that this was a "catholic" only site as it only asks if one is a "Christian" so, the question of the day for you "is this a catholic only site"?
Being that I do not associate myself with any "sect" that calls itself Christian then I am not part of either the protestant group that broke away from the church that arose in the 3rd century or the 3rd century church itself so, if I see anti-Christian behavior in any officially named "Christian" entity and I point it out should I expect that such action is against some as yet unseen policy of this site?
A Christian debate forum would not have much to debate if only a specific entities view is allowed.

Now don't get me wrong I don't mind if this site is that way and I have just not yet perceived it but, it would have been nice to have full disclosure from the beginning and I would have moved on to a site that is open to all Christians as well as each of their specific views. The fact that I see an admin actively speaking out against a POV that has been openly understood for centuries by the Christian world is a telltale sign to me that such is the case.