Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

[JesusIsFaithful]

This is a typical non-Catholic understanding of the Scriptures.
Unfortunately - it misses the point in several places.

First of all - when Jesus told the woman in Matt. 12:48-50, He wasn't downplaying His other's importance or her holiness.
He was telling the woman that THEY should be as obedient as Mary was because she heard the will of God and DID it.

Jesus acknowledged what the woman had said, BUT He deferred from this practice. Note the underlines word after His agreement.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

You wish to declare Mary's holiness, but Mary would refute that herself for she needed the Saviour too.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

So Mary needed Jesus Christ as her Saviour to as she acknowledged her low estate in spite of the high estate that Catholics had given her in error.

Secondly, you erroneously point to John 5:22 to indicate that we shouldn't honor ANYBODY but Jesus -= and that is patently anti-biblical.
God commands us to "HONOR" our parents (Exod. 21:12). In 1 Tim. 5:17, Paul states that Presbyters are worthy of "DOUBLE HONOR" and to give it to them.

I was addressing how one honors God at all as in and I requote myself down below.

"So when they stop honoring the Son to honor Mary, they are no longer honoring the Father."

I states so in reference to John 5:22-23 in how anyone can honor God by; and Jesus is God.

Honoring Mary does NOT take anything "away" from her Son.

When Mary is not God, and the debate of this thread is to honor Jesus Christ by honoring Mary, then you are taking honor away from the Son, because you cannot honor Him as God by honoring Mary. Period.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.41 I receive not honour from men.42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

You want to honor Jesus Christ, then you honor the Son of God Himself.

Thirdly, you indicate that there is nothing special about Mary and that she is merely called blessed "among" women.
However, you completely left out the title given her by God in Luke 1:28.

The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a title.
The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, "Hail, Kecharitomene."

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

from cariV - charis 5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:--make accepted, be highly favoured.

You will have to share your source, but I do not see anything that warrants her as being above women when she has been chosen to carry our Saviour among women and it is in that, she is blessed among women as she was of the same low estate as the rest of the women and us.

Finally - to imply that we "worship" Mary or anybody or anything other than God - is simply an exercise in dishonest anti-Catholicism.

Page 253 of your Catholic Catechism

Catechism of the Catholic Church

971“All generations will call me blessed”

: “The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.”

So it is a part of worship; and thus worshipping Mary. I acknowledge that the Catechism says it is not the same "adoration" given to God, BUT YOU CANNOT say it is dishonest when devotions to Mary is a part of christian worship.

515 The Church rightly honors “the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored
with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithfulfly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . .differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.”

That is like saying God has no complaint to people giving "adoration" to Mary in worship which is false when worship of God can only involve God.

It would be better to heed Jesus's words that defers you from focusing on Mary and instead focus on the Word of God and do that instead.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Holiness, she was a woman born of a woman. Holiness indeed. She was born of teh same sinfull flesh as all men are she was no better than anyone, It is you who keeps putting her on a pedestal, Not God, not Jesus. Lots of people in this world, men and women are called by God for special puroposes, why are you not praising all of them.??

Churches doctirnes all it is.

So, you don't believe that a person can be holy??
What a completely bankrupt understanding of the Gospel . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus acknowledged what the woman had said, BUT He deferred from this practice. Note the underlines word after His agreement.
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus is telling the woman that it's not His mother's womb and breasts that were blessed - but that SHE was blessed for having kept the word and will of God.

You wish to declare Mary's holiness, but Mary would refute that herself for she needed the Saviour too.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

So Mary needed Jesus Christ as her Saviour to as she acknowledged her low estate in spite of the high estate that Catholics had given her in error.

WHAT are you talking about??
The Church has ALWAYS taught that Mary was saved by God's grace and not by her own power.

The only difference is that she was saved PRIOR to being born to be the fitting vessel that carried GOD within her. This is why the Angel called her "Kecharitomene" in Luke 1:28.

I was addressing how one honors God at all as in and I requote myself down below.

"So when they stop honoring the Son to honor Mary, they are no longer honoring the Father."

I states so in reference to John 5:22-23 in how anyone can honor God by; and Jesus is God.

And, again, you have it wrong.

The Catholic Church does not and has never taught that we are to STOP honoring Jesus to honor his mother.
This is a false charge on your part.

When Mary is not God, and the debate of this thread is to honor Jesus Christ by honoring Mary, then you are taking honor away from the Son, because you cannot honor Him as God by honoring Mary. Period.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.41 I receive not honour from men.42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

You want to honor Jesus Christ, then you honor the Son of God Himself.

More Scriptural bankruptcy.

Jesus HIMSELF said that what we do for the very LEAST of his brothers - we do for HIM (Matt. 25:40).
We honor Jesus every time we love our neighbor - so how does honoring His mother detract from Him??

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version
You will have to share your source, but I do not see anything that warrants her as being above women when she has been chosen to carry our Saviour among women and it is in that, she is blessed among women as she was of the same low estate as the rest of the women and us.

Luke 1:28 calls Mary Kecharitomene - not "Charitoo".
In fact - this is the ONLY place in ALL of Scripture where this title is used.

Page 253 of your Catholic Catechism

Catechism of the Catholic Church

So it is a part of worship; and thus worshipping Mary. I acknowledge that the Catechism says it is not the same "adoration" given to God, BUT YOU CANNOT say it is dishonest when devotions to Mary is a part of christian worship.

INTRINSIC to worship.
This simply means that unless we recognize who she is - we cannot possibly know who her Son is.

She is the Ark of the New Covenant. Whereas the old Ark carried symbols of God's power within it - she actually carried GOD Himself within her.

If you had no idea what the Ark was - how could you possibly understand what was within it??

 

[mjrhealth]

So, you don't believe that a person can be holy??
What a completely bankrupt understanding of the Gospel . . .

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Of only God is good than only He can be Holy even so the Holy Sprit and our Risen Lord, but men,, not while in the flesh we cannot be You call so many things Holy and do not honour God by doing so, just stealing more away from Him as you have done and continue to do.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Jesus is telling the woman that it's not His mother's womb and breasts that were blessed - but that SHE was blessed for having kept the word and will of God.

No. Jesus did not refer to her as being the one that hear the Word of God and keep it, but "they" which included the woman that Jesus was deferring that woman from blessing Mary Whose womb and paps were blessed.

WHAT are you talking about??
The Church has ALWAYS taught that Mary was saved by God's grace and not by her own power.

"
722The Holy Spirit prepared Mary by his grace. It was fitting that the mother of him in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” 102
should herself be “full of grace.” She was, by sheer grace,conceived without sin as the most humble of creatures, the most capable of welcoming the inexpressible gift of the Almighty." ~ Catholic Catechism Page 191

If Mary was without sin, then she would not have sung her need for God as her Saviour.

The only difference is that she was saved PRIOR to being born to be the fitting vessel that carried GOD within her. This is why the Angel called her "Kecharitomene" in Luke 1:28.

That is not explained as such in the catechism. Indeed, to be conceived in the womb without sin does not testify to her being saved before she was literally born.

This is why you should suspect the Catechism as another gospel because it does not "just" raise Jesus up, but Mary as well. Mary is not the steeping stone to God and neither is the RCC. God the Father provided only one way to come to Him and that is through the Son ( John 14:6 ); you cannot climb up any other way John 10:1 ). Jesus is the door. John 10:7-9

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber......7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

In light of the topic which is the debate, John 10:8 above says putting Mary before Jesus as a means to Jesus is a work of a thief. Those who love the Bridegroom knows to go to Jesus, and no one else in coming to God the Father by in worship, fellowship, and prayer.

Psalm 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

And, again, you have it wrong.

The Catholic Church does not and has never taught that we are to STOP honoring Jesus to honor his mother.
This is a false charge on your part.

More Scriptural bankruptcy.

I did not say that the Catholic Church taught that. I did apply the scripture of John 5:23 that cites that whenever any believer honors any one else in worship other than the Son, then they are no longer honoring God the Father in that moment in worship. That is the error of the RCC when they honor somebody else besides Jesus in worship. That is not pleasing to God at all nor doing the will of the Father in worship.

Jesus HIMSELF said that what we do for the very LEAST of his brothers - we do for HIM (Matt. 25:40).
We honor Jesus every time we love our neighbor - so how does honoring His mother detract from Him??

Honoring & glorifying God in worship means only honoring and glorifying the Son in worship.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Don't side step these verses as if because Mary is a woman, they do not apply to her. No flesh shall glory in His Presence. We are not to glory in any one except in the Lord.

Luke 1:28 calls Mary Kecharitomene - not "Charitoo".
In fact - this is the ONLY place in ALL of Scripture where this title is used.

Judges 5:24Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

Is Jael blessed ABOVE women or not? Entirely different than the blessing of Mary among women, but then this blessing is written in Hebrew of the Old Testament whereas the Greek of the New Testament would have it mean differently towards Mary, but how does "above" and "among" places this blessing when Jael is above women whereas Mary was blessed among women?

And to resolve the conflict, they are both irrelevant in relation to the glory of God in Christ Jesus in worship. Period.

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

In worship of God, only Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is to be worshipped. That is plainly taught in the letters to the churches in the New Testament and the practice of devotions to Mary is taught NOWHERE in the New Testament.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

INTRINSIC to worship.
This simply means that unless we recognize who she is - we cannot possibly know who her Son is.

She is the Ark of the New Covenant. Whereas the old Ark carried symbols of God's power within it - she actually carried GOD Himself within her.

If you had no idea what the Ark was - how could you possibly understand what was within it??

Why is Jesus's warning should not alarm you?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you keep going to Mary whom you claim to know because she was down here, and yet deny the Son Whom came down here as the One to know by reading His words.....then you will never know the Son of God personally that way.

How much of Mary's words have been written for you to know here? How is it that there are way more words of Jesus's than hers that you claim to know her but not the Son?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

You cannot live this reconciled relationship with God through Mary. You can only live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ, the Son of God... also known as the Bridegroom as you are the bride for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Mary has no power in Heaven because ALL power has been given to Jesus in answering prayers for He is God at that throne of grace; not Mary.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Stop learning about Mary through the Catechism because that is another gospel. The Catechism is not of the truth when there can be no lie of the truth.

You can know the Son by reading of His words in getting to know Him.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Rest in Jesus Christ that you are saved and depart from the works of catholicism that provides no rest from that laboring in unbelief.

837 "“Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 222

Talk about a rat race in vanity. In according to the Catholic Catechism, how can any Catholic testify that Jesus Christ IS their Saviour if they are not saved "yet"? The New Testament preaches the Good News of Jesus Christ to men now; The Catechism preaches a possible Good News to men which makes christianity the same as any other religion.. a possibility but no guarantee because it depends on you and your work in catholicism and that is not the Good News of Jesus Christ at all.

1 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

You are saved now, brother for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. You were saved the moment you had believed that. So rest in Him by ceasing from the works of catholicism, and believed that you have been saved when you first had believed in Him.

Romans 8:4 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Having the Holy Spirit in you means He is bearing witness that you are saved so you as led by the Holy Spirit can tell others that Jesus Christ really is your Saviour.

 

[epostle1]

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Of only God is good than only He can be Holy even so the Holy Sprit and our Risen Lord, but men,, not while in the flesh we cannot be You call so many things Holy and do not honour God by doing so, just stealing more away from Him as you have done and continue to do.

In Mark 10:18, Jesus is referring to Himself as God, the source of all goodness. It doesn't mean nobody can be holy.
The reason we honor Mary is because God honored her first. Why is this biblical truth is so disturbing for some?

 

[epostle1]

I'm sure BreadofLife can respond to your rant sufficiently on his own, but I have a few comments.

Why is Jesus's warning should not alarm you?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What does this have to do with the Ark of the Covenant?

If you keep going to Mary whom you claim to know because she was down here, and yet deny the Son Whom came down here as the One to know by reading His words.....then you will never know the Son of God personally that way.

Mary as an obstacle to Jesus is a false dishonest anti-Catholic myth. I have a whole thread on the topic.

How much of Mary's words have been written for you to know here? How is it that there are way more words of Jesus's than hers that you claim to know her but not the Son?

Do you find "Do whatever He tells you" confusing? John 2:5

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

First, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.
Second, it has nothing to do with Mary. Jesus is sole mediator between God and man because He is the only Person who is BOTH. There is not a singe Catholic document in a 2000 year period that anyone, especially Mary, takes on that divine role. It is an anti-Catholic lie. John 14:6 has been consistently taught by the Church and you talk like we haven't heard it before.

You cannot live this reconciled relationship with God through Mary. You can only live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ, the Son of God... also known as the Bridegroom as you are the bride for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead.

"reconciled relationship with God through Mary" is more anti-Catholic ignorance, and again, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

That includes His mother, so you do scriptural gymnastics with John 19:26 and actually avoid Romans 8:23. Again, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.

Mary has no power in Heaven because ALL power has been given to Jesus in answering prayers for He is God at that throne of grace; not Mary.

Mary has no power on her own, intercessorary prayers she receives go straight to God, and it is God that may or may not answer them. We can and should pray directly to God, but scripture shows instances of praying other than to God, which is anathema to Protestants. Mary can do nothing without the grace of Christ, and I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept for Protestants.
Again, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

What year did Jesus go back on promise to be with us always? Did He take a vacation until 1517?
Again, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.

Stop learning about Mary through the Catechism because that is another gospel. The Catechism is not of the truth when there can be no lie of the truth.

That is your opinion, and based on the nonsense you have posted so far, your opinion is meaningless.

You can know the Son by reading of His words in getting to know Him.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Rest in Jesus Christ that you are saved and depart from the works of catholicism that provides no rest from that laboring in unbelief.
837 "“Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 222
Talk about a rat race in vanity. In according to the Catholic Catechism, how can any Catholic testify that Jesus Christ IS their Saviour if they are not saved "yet"? The New Testament preaches the Good News of Jesus Christ to men now; The Catechism preaches a possible Good News to men which makes christianity the same as any other religion.. a possibility but no guarantee because it depends on you and your work in catholicism and that is not the Good News of Jesus Christ at all.

Assurance of salvation was invented by John Calvin, it is not in the Bible and was never taught by the Church. The Bible teaches salvation by perseverance and inner transformation, which is what the Church teaches, not man made traditions.

1 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
You are saved now, brother for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. You were saved the moment you had believed that. So rest in Him by ceasing from the works of catholicism, and believed that you have been saved when you first had believed in Him.
Romans 8:4 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

You are quoting from Catholic book that was hijacked in the 15th century.

Having the Holy Spirit in you means He is bearing witness that you are saved so you as led by the Holy Spirit can tell others that Jesus Christ really is your Saviour.

Your post illustrates typical anti-Catholic ignorance. Works salvation was condemned as a heresy at the Council of Orange 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Assuming no Catholic has the Holy Spirit is a false assumption on your part, and rather insulting. It seems anti-Catholics have nothing better to do that make up list after list of lies of what the CC actually teaches.

Again, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant. Next time, bring up one topic for discussion, not a cluster bomb of 25.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I'm sure BreadofLife can respond to your rant sufficiently on his own, but I have a few comments.
What does this have to do with the Ark of the Covenant?

Quote from BreadofLife:

"INTRINSIC to worship.
This simply means that unless we recognize who she is - we cannot possibly know who her Son is.

She is the Ark of the New Covenant. Whereas the old Ark carried symbols of God's power within it - she actually carried GOD Himself within her.

If you had no idea what the Ark was - how could you possibly understand what was within it??"

See the underlined of that quote? I was addressing that point within the quote from BreadofLife.

Mary as an obstacle to Jesus is a false dishonest anti-Catholic myth. I have a whole thread on the topic.
Do you find "Do whatever He tells you" confusing? John 2:5

He told us to defer from honoring Mary and do the Word of God instead.

{QUOTE]First, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.[/QUOTE]

Granted, I should have quoted only a small reference of that post for what I was replying to, but since the point was in that quote, it should not be lost on you when rereading my reply again.

Also, I disagree that Mary was intended within the Word of God as scripture to be symbolic or otherwise of being the Ark of the Covenant.

Second, it has nothing to do with Mary. Jesus is sole mediator between God and man because He is the only Person who is BOTH. There is not a singe Catholic document in a 2000 year period that anyone, especially Mary, takes on that divine role. It is an anti-Catholic lie. John 14:6 has been consistently taught by the Church and you talk like we haven't heard it before.

"969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . .Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." ~ Carholic Catechism Pg 252

Advocate? Mediatrix? Mary is not given those titles unless she is sharing in the office of that only Mediator between God & men.

"970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”

“No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.” ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 253

That's double talk right here. It says no one is beside the Mediator, but yet she shares in that office as a priest.

"975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 254

Looks like Mary is doing something from Heaven, and yet Jesus nor any of His disciples saw fit to testify to that future role of her in scripture.

"reconciled relationship with God through Mary" is more anti-Catholic ignorance, and again, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.

The Catholic Catechism seems to disagree with you. I have also heard this little saying from Catholics " Jesus is mad and so that is why we do not go to Jesus in prayer. We go to Mary. Jesus will never say no to Mary."

Sounded like to me that some Catholics are replacing our sole Mediator with Mary. Watch this Catholic video of the Novena and I can see how that saying has come about. Oh, and I point out that only God can answer prayers to refute this video below as you stated; there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus as per 1 Timothy 2:5 & Hebrews 4:12-16.

 

[mjrhealth]

In Mark 10:18, Jesus is referring to Himself as God, the source of all goodness

No He wasnt, thats a com-plete contradiction of what it Says. If He was reffering to Himself as God than He would not have spouted on that only God is good.

It doesn't mean nobody can be holy.

How can one be Holy if one is not perfect.??

Mary is because God honored her first. Why is this biblical truth is so disturbing for some?

Yes to Her it probably is disturbingt that men have raised her up onto a pedestal she knows full well she doesnt deserve. That place alone is for Jesus, why are you so upset about it.

 

[mjrhealth]

devotions to Mary is a part of christian worship.

That is not tree, it is only part of teh catholic doctines no other church as far as i know does, cept maybe teh orthodox ones.

 

[FHII]

First of all - when Jesus told the woman in Matt. 12:48-50, He wasn't downplaying His other's importance or her holiness.
He was telling the woman that THEY should be as obedient as Mary was because she heard the will of God and DID it.

I would like to know how you have come to that conclusion, because everything in Matthew 12 (as pertaining to this incident) doesn't suggest that.

First off... No woman is involved in a conversation. One woman (Mary) was seeking an audience with his brothers (or brethren). Jesus didn't talk to her ever in this account. Reading carefully, one man came to Jesus and Jesus spoke those words directly to him.

Second, Mary and his brethren never got to talk to Jesus during this incident.
Third, verse 48 says says, " but he answered and said unto him..." the fact that Matthew says "but" implies heavily something contrary had happened. Mary wanted to talk to Jesus BUT Jesus said....

Fourth... Not that I put much stock in classic commentaries.... I aporeciate them but don't count them as accurate alk the time.... I haven't found one that supports your view. I have heard others that believe like you, but never can pinpoint a source for this belief.

Fifth... I don't hide from scripture. Mark 3 tells a much more supportive version for your theory. Yet, you quoted Matt. Mark, by the way seems much more abbreviated than Matt.

In any sense, it seems to me that what happened is that Mary and Jesus's brethren didn't get to church on time and had something they thought was more important than what Jesus had to say. Jesus wasn't having any of it. God's Word is more important than earthly family.

And just what was so important that it couldn't wait for Jesus to do his Father's will?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

That is not tree, it is only part of teh catholic doctines no other church as far as i know does, cept maybe teh orthodox ones.

I was referring to what the Catholic Catechism had said in regards to Catholic practice in worship. It was not meant as a statement towards non-Catholic churches.

 

[epostle1]

Jesus acknowledged what the woman had said, BUT He deferred from this practice. Note the underlines word after His agreement.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

You wish to declare Mary's holiness, but Mary would refute that herself for she needed the Saviour too.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

So Mary needed Jesus Christ as her Saviour to as she acknowledged her low estate in spite of the high estate that Catholics had given her in error.

If your man made system didn't drop the doctrine of original sin, you would not be making this lame assertion. God spared Mary from original sin when she was conceived. To be "Full of Grace" is to be saved. The angel Gabriel announced what God had already done, and your man made system cannot deduce WHEN Mary was saved. That's what you deny, we don't deny Mary needed a savior, and we don't deny the meaning of "kecharitomene" .

I was addressing how one honors God at all as in and I requote myself down below.

"So when they stop honoring the Son to honor Mary, they are no longer honoring the Father."

Catholics worship the Son by honoring His mother. When anyone admires a painting they are complimenting the artist. What you are saying here is typical anti-Catholic ignorance.

I states so in reference tovv in how anyone can honor God by; and Jesus is God.

That's not what it says. 22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Mary doesn't judge, and it doesn't mean no one else can be honored in a lesser sense. We are to honor all men: 1 Peter 2:17, leaders and rulers, Titus 3:1-2, our parents etc. so your abuse of John 5:22-23 is a false dichotomy; trying to prove it is wrong to honor anybody but God. It doesn't say that. It's a completely different type of honor and we don't give that to Mary.

When Mary is not God, and the debate of this thread is to honor Jesus Christ by honoring Mary, then you are taking honor away from the Son, because you cannot honor Him as God by honoring Mary. Period. Absurd anti-Catholic nonsense.

Correct. Absurd anti-Catholic nonsense.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.41 I receive not honour from men.42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

You want to honor Jesus Christ, then you honor the Son of God Himself.

A false dichotomy that pits one type of honor (latria) against a lesser type. (dulia) The Bible doesn't do that.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version
You will have to share your source, but I do not see anything that warrants her as being above women when she has been chosen to carry our Saviour among women and it is in that, she is blessed among women as she was of the same low estate as the rest of the women and us.

Scripture says Mary is blessed among women. I don't use the term "above women" because it implies she is unreachable and not a mere human like us.

Page 253 of your Catholic Catechism
Catechism of the Catholic Church

So it is a part of worship; and thus worshipping Mary.

Psychotic anti-Catholic babbling. Please reference the Catechism by paragraph number. Page numbers don't work.

I acknowledge that the Catechism says it is not the same "adoration" given to God, BUT YOU CANNOT say it is dishonest when devotions to Mary is a part of christian worship.

All valid devotions to Mary lead us closer to Jesus, or it is a false devotion. I've posted heavily on the first few pages trying to dispel this false anti-Catholic "Mary worship" lunacy.

 

[epostle1]

Quote from BreadofLife:

"INTRINSIC to worship.
This simply means that unless we recognize who she is - we cannot possibly know who her Son is.
She is the Ark of the New Covenant. Whereas the old Ark carried symbols of God's power within it - she actually carried GOD Himself within her.
If you had no idea what the Ark was - how could you possibly understand what was within it??"
See the underlined of that quote? I was addressing that point within the quote from BreadofLife.
He told us to defer from honoring Mary and do the Word of God instead.

First, this has nothing to do with the Ark of the Covenant.

Granted, I should have quoted only a small reference of that post for what I was replying to, but since the point was in that quote, it should not be lost on you when rereading my reply again.
Also, I disagree that Mary was intended within the Word of God as scripture to be symbolic or otherwise of being the Ark of the Covenant.
"969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . .Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." ~ Carholic Catechism Pg 252
Advocate? Mediatrix? Mary is not given those titles unless she is sharing in the office of that only Mediator between God & men.
"970 “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”“No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.” ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 253
That's double talk right here. It says no one is beside the Mediator, but yet she shares in that office as a priest.
"975 “We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ” ~ Catholic Catechism Pg 254
Looks like Mary is doing something from Heaven, and yet Jesus nor any of His disciples saw fit to testify to that future role of her in scripture.
The Catholic Catechism seems to disagree with you. I have also heard this little saying from Catholics " Jesus is mad and so that is why we do not go to Jesus in prayer. We go to Mary. Jesus will never say no to Mary."
Sounded like to me that some Catholics are replacing our sole Mediator with Mary. Watch this Catholic video of the Novena and I can see how that saying has come about. Oh, and I point out that only God can answer prayers to refute this video below as you stated; there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus as per 1 Timothy 2:5 & Hebrews 4:12-16.

You are taking the catechism out of context, adding meanings that don't belong, distorting meanings of terms, falsifying Catholic teaching, and using it as a weapon against the Church.

The CONTENTS of the Ark of the Covenant foreshadow the Messiah, and the Ark of the Covenant foreshadow His mother, not the Messiah. You have to have brain damage to miss the numerous parallels affirming this.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.
Honoring Jesus Through Mary: 50 Biblical Reasons

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

If your man made system didn't drop the doctrine of original sin, you would not be making this lame assertion. God spared Mary from original sin when she was conceived. To be "Full of Grace" is to be saved. The angel Gabriel announced what God had already done, and your man made system cannot deduce WHEN Mary was saved. That's what you deny, we don't deny Mary needed a savior, and we don't deny the meaning of "kecharitomene" .

"Highly favored" is hardly testifying to not being conceived in original sin. If Mary had to be without sin to be able for Jesus to be conceived without sin, then Mary's mother had to be conceived without original sin for Mary to be conceived without original sin and so on and so on.

This double talk in having double meaning is how and why Catholic falsehoods cannot be corrected. You are saying both, and yet denying the other.

If Mary had to be conceived without original sin, and yet you say she needed the Saviour as well, then any sin she has committed after her birth is why she needed the Saviour, thus having original sin or just plain sinful nature when she was carrying Jesus. Indeed, she sang the song praising God her Saviour while carrying Jesus.

So... Catholic nonsense with no basis in scripture other than you making a mountain out of a molehill about "kecharitomene" which is hardly defined as such in Strong's Concordance for you to apply it that way as being conceived without original sin. Mary's own words refutes that in her song.

Catholics worship the Son by honoring His mother. When anyone admires a painting they are complimenting the artist. What you are saying here is typical anti-Catholic ignorance.

That's not what it says. 22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Mary doesn't judge, and it doesn't mean no one else can be honored in a lesser sense. We are to honor all men: 1 Peter 2:17, leaders and rulers, Titus 3:1-2, our parents etc. so your abuse of John 5:22-23 is a false dichotomy; trying to prove it is wrong to honor anybody but God. It doesn't say that. It's a completely different type of honor and we don't give that to Mary.

When it is a part of christian worship when worship should only be given to God by way of only honoring the Son to honor the Father, then you are defiling that worship since no flesh shall glory in His Presence; not in Heaven and certainly, not down here.

Then leave her out of christian worship. You better believe that in Heaven, Mary will be worshiping God. She is not going to be the center of attention in any part of that worship in Heaven. She will not put up with it; and neither will the Lord Jesus Christ nor the Father. The Father will scourge that sin from all Catholics before receiving them, so it is best to repent now to be received at the pre trib rapture, rather than be left behind to be received later on. And yes, there are other works of catholicism to repent of because they are also works of iniquity that deny Him as well.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

You are taking the catechism out of context, adding meanings that don't belong, distorting meanings of terms, falsifying Catholic teaching, and using it as a weapon against the Church.
The CONTENTS of the Ark of the Covenant foreshadow the Messiah, and the Ark of the Covenant foreshadow His mother, not the Messiah. You have to have brain damage to miss the numerous parallels affirming this.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.
Honoring Jesus Through Mary: 50 Biblical Reasons

What is obvious is that there are no scripture in the New Testament that places such honor and practice IN worship to the New Testament churches.

If you wish to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in testifying of Him in seeking His honor & His glory, you cannot testify of another. As it is, many believers of other denomenations are being disciples of their denomenational church rather than being a disciple of Jesus Christ. If you miss my point, you cannot be a disciple of Jesus Christ by being a disciple of the Catholic Church. Either you stick with His words and the NT teachings to the churches or you are sticking to the words of the Catholic Catechism and the added errant extrabiblical teachings given to the churches after the days of the NT churches.

Anyone can see that the Catholic catechism is hardly the simplicity of the gospel any more, and for all that emphasis within it, you can hardly find it in the N.T. scripture, thus accusing Peter, the Catholic chosen and professed "rock" of their church ( which Peter really wasn't ) of being so negligent.

I have seen the movie "Silence" about two Jesuits priests in early Japan during the time that christianity was outlawed and christians ( meaning Catholics) were being persecuted and put to death. The one Jesuit testify of the suffering of Catholics there, having no priest for confessions and the Mass and infant water baptism. Imagine if there was no catholicism where it is out of the way so they can go directly to Jesus Christ. They would not be suffering. They would have no need of "holy relics" that if found, they would be arrested and put to trial by trampling on a stone carving of Jesus or else, be put to death. The Jesuit would not be defending Catholicism in vague generality as being the truth against Buddhism, but defending Jesus Christ and His words in how Jesus Christ is the Truth. So that one missing priest was correct when he said that the Japanese Catholics were dying for him ( the priest played by Andrew Garfield ) because of what he does for them that they so desperately need and were suffering for.

So catholicism does not bring any peace; it robs them of coming to Jesus Christ directly for forgiveness & that peace which can only comes from God. That is what I had seen in that movie titled "Silence" which is now out on DVD. I shall not share how it ended to spoil it, but I point out the spoiling of the Japanese christians under the weight of the works of catholicism.

Jesus is the door. Not the Catholic church. It is in Jesus we have life; not the Catholic church. Salvation is found in Jesus Christ. Not in the Catholic Church.

So a disciple is one that raises another up for all that hear him to go to. His disciple raises up Jesus Christ. Errant believers raises up a church.

.

 

[Abiding Grace]

Assurance of salvation was invented by John Calvin, it is not in the Bible and was never taught by the Church. The Bible teaches salvation by perseverance and inner transformation, which is what the Church teaches, not man made traditions.

Quote snipped.

John Calvin didn't dream up the assurance of salvation, the scriptures teach it.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).

 

[epostle1]

"Highly favored" is hardly testifying to not being conceived in original sin.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me WHEN Mary was "Full of Grace".

If Mary had to be without sin to be able for Jesus to be conceived without sin, then Mary's mother had to be conceived without original sin for Mary to be conceived without original sin and so on and so on.

Mary's sinlessness was a special intervention by God at her conception, not by genetics. God didn't have to do it that way, He did it because it was fitting for the mother of the Messiah.

This double talk in having double meaning is how and why Catholic falsehoods cannot be corrected. You are saying both, and yet denying the other.

That's your opinion. Nothing is sacred to you, not the Temple, and not the Ark of the Covenant.

If Mary had to be conceived without original sin, and yet you say she needed the Saviour as well, then any sin she has committed after her birth is why she needed the Saviour, thus having original sin or just plain sinful nature when she was carrying Jesus.

It's an unbiblical assumption and a denial of "Full of Grace".

Indeed, she sang the song praising God her Saviour while carrying Jesus.

Also known as The Magnificat. Try reading the whole thing, minus the Protestant lenses that only lets you see one verse.

So... Catholic nonsense with no basis in scripture other than you making a mountain out of a molehill about "kecharitomene" which is hardly defined as such in Strong's Concordance for you to apply it that way as being conceived without original sin. Mary's own words refutes that in her song.

No, it doesn't. You still haven't explained WHEN Mary was "Full of Grace", which is the key to understanding when Mary was saved.(which you keep dodging)

When it is a part of christian worship when worship should only be given to God by way of only honoring the Son to honor the Father, then you are defiling that worship since no flesh shall glory in His Presence; not in Heaven and certainly, not down here.

Mary is honored, not worshiped. Only God is worshiped. "Mary worship" is an insulting anti-Catholic myth.

Then leave her out of christian worship. You better believe that in Heaven, Mary will be worshiping God. She is not going to be the center of attention in any part of that worship in Heaven. She will not put up with it; and neither will the Lord Jesus Christ nor the Father. The Father will scourge that sin from all Catholics before receiving them, so it is best to repent now to be received at the pre trib rapture, rather than be left behind to be received later on. And yes, there are other works of catholicism to repent of because they are also works of iniquity that deny Him as well.

Mary is a member of Christian worship, not an object. We don't throw her out of the Bible the way you do.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

These verses have nothing to do with Mary.

 

[epostle1]

Quote snipped.

John Calvin didn't dream up the assurance of salvation, the scriptures teach it.

No, scriptures do no teach it. Calvin squeezed it from scriptures.

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. (how did they get their names in the book in the first place?) This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

The doctrine of "once saved, always saved" was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn't want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.

The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won't know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives its adherents less assurance of their salvation. It necessarily imposes upon them uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists don't even know whether it is theirs to begin with.