Can salvation be lost

[Amazed@grace]

Your right in part. All names were written from the foundation of the world. But there is an error in your thinking. Christ said in revelation 3:5 “ he that overcomes I will not blot his name out of the book of life.” All names are written but the only ones that remain are those in Christ. You have understood in part only.

I disagree.
What you propose is what is known as works salvation.
As if we have to labor and be found worthy of salvation after our life of labors toward that reward is over, and then judged.

That is not Salvation.
That is trepidation.

Jesus did not sacrifice himself to seal a covenant based on our efforts to save ourselves.

Which is the underlying message behind the falsity that is the errant teaching known as,works salvation .

 

[kcnalp]

I think you will concern yourself with how you answer for every word you've said against the covenant of eternal grace filled salvation, when you appear before God's great white throne. Revelation 20:11-15.

I'm not the one's who are lying to people telling them they can never forsake God! Go look in your mirror. LOTS of blood on the hands of the OSAS judges!

 

[kcnalp]

Purveyors of the antigospel always argue that security in our eternal salvation means we believe we can do anything, willfully sin continually, and remain saved.

That isn't in scripture at all. But anti-gospel types aren't concerned with truth. Or, for that matter simple logic.

Salvation, by definition.
One is not saved from anything, if they can choose to be unsaved from something.

What Christian, redeemed, renewed, would ever say: "Well heck, I think I'll recant my repentance and release my salvation, as if that were possible, because Hell bound is on my bucket list! Bring on the burn cream and asbestos footy pajamas! Me and horns boy are gonna paaaarrrrty for eternity!

The unapologetic agenda folks like you undertake is meritless. And unable to be sustained by the words and truth of God.

Salvation is eternal and irrevocable under God, whose will and foreknowledge guarantees he knows the names of his sheep, and calls us to him. And NO ONE, will take us from his hand.

You don't agree with that.

God assures us, you don't have to. God's truth surpasses unbelievers will to minister against his eternal truth.

God NEVER assured you that you can't forsake Him! Are you a puppet?

 

[Hidden In Him]

I feel that I was more describing the faith from which works come.

In the above passage, what part do you see saying something different from what I'm saying?

Much love!

Well, just that the focus isn't actually on faith in this passage, it's on works:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:14-26)

See, to me the focus of the teaching here is not really about the faith from which works come, but about how real faith will manifest works, as opposed to a fake faith with will make excuses for itself in not manifesting works.

His last verse was saying it's an empty "faith" if it doesn't manifest works, just like a body without a spirit is just an empty, lifeless course.

 

[Amazed@grace]

I recall writing something about I think it was in the book of Romans when Paul was speaking about how we're saved by faith alone, and not by works, lest anyone can boast, that statement. To me, from the way he was writing in the whole book, he was talking about your old self, not Christ self, the old self works but the Christ self we're called on to do the works through Christ and that's how I sum up the whole thing. I forgot how I explained it before. I feel I possibly explained it better before but this is how I explain it now.

I get what your saying. :)
As Paul said, we cannot labor to save ourselves through the good things we do, thinking those will result in our heavenly eternal reward.

Christ did all the work on the cross.
The Word made flesh. Appearing to us as a man, when man is a dead in our sins being, he assumed our image.
But, was perfect, sinless, eternal God made flesh. To show us by his example the works of God. Healing, raising the dead, feeding the multitude, walking upon stormy waters, conquering death.

All these things and more, he said we who are in him are able to do if we have faith that is even the size of a mustard seed.

He led to the spirit of his teaching by example. And then he died.
He was sacrificed on the cross for the sins of the world. And conquered death, as we who are in him shall.

That whosoever believes in him now is freed of their sins. Sins that are covered by his blood for all time. And unlike before we came into that repentance, our sins are remembered by God no more.
We are free, redeemed, reborn in him as a new creation.

Made spotless as our old sinner self is cast into the grave of this world. And is resurrected, washed clean, in the new birth as one with Him.

The illusion of self and those worldly appetites are all that we are, is done away. We are awakened to our source, our home, our creator. We are more than this flesh.

And we are greatly loved, and safe forever in the irrevocable truth that is his covenant with us. Sealed by his indwelling holy spirit, the helper, who guides us through this life.

And the good works we do,led by his will, isn't to secure our salvation, or work for it as if something earned later on.

Good deeds aren't to insure our salvation. They're evidence of our salvation. Doing God's work here on earth by his will and for his glory, and for the sake of others .

Let the church live the, Amen and Hallelujah! :)

 

[Amazed@grace]

God NEVER assured you that you can't forsake Him! Are you a puppet?

May God have mercy upon you.
Amen.

 

[kcnalp]

May God have mercy upon you.
Amen.

For believing in Jesus, the Son of God, My Savior? For believing the Bible is God breathed? FYI, those are not sins.

Didn't you say I can't be unsaved? Or is that only for OSASers?

 

[marks]

Well, just that the focus isn't actually on faith in this passage, it's on works:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:14-26)

See, to me the focus of the teaching here is not really about the faith from which works come, but about how real faith will manifest works, as opposed to a fake faith with will make excuses for itself in not manifesting works.

His last verse was saying it's an empty "faith" if it doesn't manifest works, just like a body without a spirit is just an empty, lifeless course.

Somewhere something shifted and I missed it . . .

Where are we?

Much love!

 

[marks]

See, to me the focus of the teaching here is not really about the faith from which works come, but about how real faith will manifest works, as opposed to a fake faith with will make excuses for itself in not manifesting works.

His last verse was saying it's an empty "faith" if it doesn't manifest works, just like a body without a spirit is just an empty, lifeless course.

Works show the reality of inner change to others.

Real faith brings real change, because God begets us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

For believing in Jesus, the Son of God, My Savior? For believing the Bible is God breathed? FYI, those are not sins.

Didn't you say I can't be unsaved? Or is that only for OSASers?

May God have mercy on us all!!!

Much love!!

 

[kcnalp]

May God have mercy on us all!!!

Much love!!

A BIG Amen to that!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Somewhere something shifted and I missed it . . .

Where are we?

Much love!

I don't know either, LoL. Maybe we should consider this slow progress towards an end goal or something.

Works show the reality of inner change to others.

Real faith brings real change, because God begets us.

Much love!

Agreed on both counts. :)

 

[Amazed@grace]

I'm not the one's who are lying to people telling them they can never forsake God! Go look in your mirror. LOTS of blood on the hands of the OSAS judges!

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”
Plato

​

@kcnalp, You know not the peace of God in Christ.

Your eyes are shut, your heart is hard, and your rage against the words you cannot comprehend , while causing me to feel pity for you, shall bring upon you the judgement of God at your end. As you answer for every word uttered against the good news brought by The Word made flesh.

Proverbs 1:5-7 Let the wise listen to these proverbs and become even wiser. Let those with understanding receive guidance by exploring the meaning in these proverbs and parables, the words of the wise and their riddles. Fear of the LORD is the foundation of true knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

 

[Amazed@grace]

Somewhere something shifted and I missed it . . .

Where are we?

Much love!

Where?
Always and forever in the peace of Christ.:)

While witnessing a mask fall away from one who till of late imagined it firmly afixed until the truth of God in Christ refused to be overshadowed by the purposed purveyor of the anti-gospel.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. People will refuse to listen to the truth and turn to myths.

 

[kcnalp]

“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”
Plato

​

@kcnalp, You know not the peace of God in Christ.

You mean because I didn't fall for Satan's OSAS scam? Plato? lol

Your eyes are shut, your heart is hard, and your rage against the words you cannot comprehend , while causing me to feel pity for you, shall bring upon you the judgement of God at your end. As you answer for every word uttered against the good news brought by The Word made flesh.

Is OSAS only for OSASers? Why do you think you will get by with judging NON OSASers? You won't.

Proverbs 1:5-7 Let the wise listen to these proverbs and become even wiser. Let those with understanding receive guidance by exploring the meaning in these proverbs and parables, the words of the wise and their riddles. Fear of the LORD is the foundation of true knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

But you said I can't be unsaved. Did you change your mind?

 

[Amazed@grace]

You mean because I didn't fall for Satan's OSAS scam? Plato? lol

Is OSAS only for OSASers? Why do you think you will get by with judging NON OSASers? You won't.

But you said I can't be unsaved. Did you change your mind?

Now one dead calls the good news of eternal God that which is of Satan.

I will no longer pay attention to that which vents evil now, and shall wail at the great white throne later.

 

[kcnalp]

Now one dead calls the good news of eternal God that which is of Satan.

I will no longer pay attention to that which vents evil now, and shall wail at the great white throne later.

But you said I can't be unsaved. Now you say I'm dead? lol

Did you change your mind? OSAS is a quite flexible doctrine designed to please OSASers. Why do you even preach OSAS to Christians?

No OSAS in the Bible!

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[mailmandan]

But you said I can't be unsaved. Now you say I'm dead? lol

Did you change your mind? OSAS is a quite flexible doctrine designed to please OSASers. Why do you even preach OSAS to Christians?

No OSAS in the Bible!

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Now of course you presume "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation, but that is inconclusive. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church emerged in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids their priests to marry and they command to abstain from meat on Fridays during Lent. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, praying to Mary and saints etc..

 

[mailmandan]

Hello @mailmandan,

Looking at these two entries (replies #78 & 79) in which you quote the work of A.T. Robinson. I find myself having to disagree with him, and therefore be at odds with you, which is a first I think, in relation to the entries that I have read of yours. Usually my finger automatically goes to the 'like' button, but not in this case. For I do not think he is correct. To go into detail would derail the thread, for there are several things I could discuss in relation to his words.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

I'm usually not at odds with you. By all means, feel free to discuss.

 

[charity]

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Greek scholar AT Robertson explains it very well - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh feron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.
John 15:2 (KJV) - Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

All the letters in the NT are written to Christians, but that does not mean everyone in the group who professes to be a Christian is a genuine Christian. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (verse 29). But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers.

I'm usually not at odds with you. By all means, feel free to discuss.

'I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away:
and every branch that beareth fruit,
He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.'
(Joh 15:1-2)

Hello @mailmandan,

Thank you, I can only deal with one aspect at the moment, and that is in relation to John 15. For which I sought help from a study book that I have, entitled, 'Life Through His Name', by Charles Welch, so I cannot take credit for what follows, though it is not a direct quote:-

In John 15:1-2, the Lord Jesus states that He is the'True Vine', not the 'type' and 'shadow' of the TRUE, but 'The True Vine'. The 'Type 'in the Old Testament represented Israel (Psalm 80:8; Isaiah 5:1-7). Israel failed to fulfil the glorious purpose of their calling, but in this as in all else Christ is the answer and the fulfilment. He is The True Vine of which failing Israel was but the shadow. The husbandman(The Father) who in Isaiah 5 cried, 'What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it?' now tends the True Vine, and Scripture testifies that He was 'well pleased', and 'well-pleasing' is associated with 'fruitfulness' in Colossians 1:10 and Romans 15:26-28 and Hebrews 15:15-16.

In John 15:1-17, the illustration of the Vine and the branches finds its realisation in the Lord and His chosen, and in both sections the concept of fruitfulness leads on to answered prayer. The 'branches' that 'abide' are called 'disciples', while those 'chosen ones' who 'abide' are called'friends'.

The words translated, 'branch', in John 15 occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, it is the Greek word,'klema', and is used in the Septuagint for the vine (Ezekiel 17:6-7), the word is derived from 'klao' 'to break' and suggests the frailty of the branches. Ezekiel 3-5 suggests that the vine if it bears no fruit is useless for much else.

'And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree,
or than a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work?
or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel;
the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned.
Is it meet for any work?
Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work:
how much less shall it be meet yet for any work,
when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?'
(Ezekiel 15:1-5)

The disciples would have been familiar with this reference to the vine in Ezekiel and would see the Lord's insistence upon 'fruit' or 'failure'.

It is said that the Husbandman treats the branch that bears no fruit, 'He taketh (it) away' (John 15:2), Does it mean that the unfruitful branch is cut out? The Greek Lexicon suggests from the usage of the word in Scripture that the word means 'to lift' 'raise' or 'take up'. The idea is not necessarily that the husbandman cuts away the unfruitful branch, it rather suggests patient care: raising the branch, training it, lifting it unto the air and sunshine, so that He can say at the end, 'what could have been done more?' (Isaiah 5:4). This attitude, too, is in the spirit of Isaiah 42:3, 'A bruised reed shall He not break'. The Husbandman also gives attention to those branches that do bear fruit, 'and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth (kathairo - cleanse) it, that it may bring forth more fruit.' The spiritual interpretation of this 'pruning' or 'purging' is supplied by the Lord Himself, 'Now (ie., already) ye are clean (katharos) through the word which I have spoken unto you' (John 15:3).

The word translated 'now' is better translated 'already' as in John 3:18; 11:17; 19:33, and as kathoros occurs nowhere else in this Gospel other than 13:10-11, it is most evident that chapter 15 must be read in the light of that previous passage. There we learn that there was a cleansing which was once and forever finished, a cleansing that was continuous and experimental, and a cleansing in which one at least of those who sat with the Lord (Judas) had no share. So in the figure of the vine and the branches: the fact that the Husbandman did not cut away the unfruitful branch is parallel with the fact that every believer is once and forever clean; the fact that even a fruitful branch was pruned or purged is parallel with the subsequent washing of the disciples feet, cleansed though they were once for all, and the further fact that Judas was not reckoned among those thus cleansed is set forth in figure:- 'If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a (the) branch, and is withered' (15:6). 'The branch' here looks especially to Judas.

There is so much more said concerning this passage of Scripture which would be lovely to share with you, but time will now allow. I hope you enjoy reading this. There are other things which I would like to consider which you included in your entries, but I will have to content myself with this.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris