Can salvation be lost

[mailmandan]

Do you tell them they can NEVER be lost no matter what they do?

I focus on their spiritual growth and making sure that faith is firmly rooted and established in them.

 

[mailmandan]

OSASers nearly always imply that anyone who doesn't swallow OSAS is not saved!

You may find certain extreme beliefs in both the OSAS and NOSAS camps, but that doesn’t mean everyone in both camps line up with every extreme view.

 

[Gary Urban]

OSASers nearly always imply that anyone who doesn't swallow OSAS is not saved!

I think it depends on whom and what is a persons confiedence, If we have no confidence then I think that those who taste of the power of good thing to come but do not swallow it (drink the blood eat the flesh ) as a parable.. . never has salvation

Philipian 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

No confidence in the flesh.

 

[charity]

Salvation And Its Terms

1. THE DECLARATION

I believe that salvation is by grace, through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. It constitutes the theme of the gospel, and while a message of unspeakable mercy to the sinner, it stands firm upon the basis of righteousness, God in His wondrous love providing the sacrifice for sin, whereby He might be a just God and a Saviour of all that call upon Him.

2. SCRIPTURAL GROUNDS

' ... I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth' (Rom. 1:16).
' ... the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men' (Titus 2:11).
' ... Thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins' (Matt. 1:21).
'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us'
(Titus 3:5).

'For by grace are ye saved through faith ... not of works' (Eph. 2:8,9).
' ... a just God and a Saviour' (Isa. 45:21).

3. EXPLANATION AND EXPANSION OF THE SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK OF SALVATION.

While the law can only condemn where perfect righteousness cannot be produced, the gospel brings glad tidings of salvation for the ungodly, the sinner, and the lost. The reason that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth is that therein is revealed a righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ, which is unto all and upon all that believe.

While the whole Person and work of Christ forms the object of faith, the resurrection is specially stressed.

' ... If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved' (Rom. 10:9).

Salvation cannot be merited; it is not of works, but the gift of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is above all else 'The Saviour', and salvation is ours because of His finished work. He died, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God. He suffered for our sins. He endured the cross that salvation might be complete, even to the putting off of the old man, and the putting on of the new. His precious blood cleanses from all sin, and in His resurrection the believer finds the power and pledge of a new and endless life. The fact that God is a just God and a Saviour, that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, that in the very salvation provided by His love He manifests not only His mercy but His righteousness; this is the believer's sure rock foundation. Salvation is all of grace; free, unmerited favour to the worthless and the lost.

I believe that, once saved the believer has incorruptible seed which is by birth and cannot be corrupted or lost. This does not mean that unfaithfulness will not be reckoned, or that there is any encouragement to slackness on the believer's part, but that those for whom the Saviour died can never perish, neither can any pluck them out of His hand. Salvation is the great covering term that stretches from the first awakening to the need of a Saviour to the time when the redeemed are presented faultless before His throne. Salvation includes justification by faith without works, forgiveness of sins, the gift of eternal life, and the hope of glory.

'This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners'
(1 Tim. 1:15).

I saw this on Believer.com, and thought it worth sharing, for it sums up what I believe on the subject.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Greek scholar AT Robertson explains it very well - Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mh feron karpon) the vine-dresser "takes away" (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15:2 (KJV) - Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

All the letters in the NT are written to Christians, but that does not mean everyone in the group who professes to be a Christian is a genuine Christian. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (verse 29). But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers.

Hello @mailmandan,

Looking at these two entries (replies #78 & 79) in which you quote the work of A.T. Robinson. I find myself having to disagree with him, and therefore be at odds with you, which is a first I think, in relation to the entries that I have read of yours. Usually my finger automatically goes to the 'like' button, but not in this case. For I do not think he is correct. To go into detail would derail the thread, for there are several things I could discuss in relation to his words.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Amazed@grace]

Amen! Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door. ;)

Amen!
Hard to imagine any denomination would teach conditional life.
The definition of salvation itself tells it is forever. You can't be saved and give it back.

 

[marks]

You wouldn't have a relationship if the Spirit stopped speaking to you,

I'm still not sure you are understanding my meaning here. He lives in me. Why would He stop speaking to me?

I may forget every Bible verse I've ever learned, yet still His Spirit in me would be moving me to love others. To trust Him.

Pre-pandemic, I spent a number of years serving in an assisted living home with an Alheimer's wing. I learned a great deal from these people! One thing I learned is that our body, our brains, that's not where the new creation lives.

They didn't know who they were, who I was, where we were, or why, but they knew Jesus. Start talking to them about Jesus, and watch them come alive!

I love my times with hymns and my Bible late at night, the day is over, everything is quiet, and I can focus. But if I'm too tired, I may just lay there and we'll talk until I fall asleep.

When He says, I will never leave you, never forsake you, I choose to believe Him, and I find, surprise surprise, His Word is true, and He is in fact always here with me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Correct, with "abide" meaning continue. :)

More precisely, remain.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I'm still not sure you are understanding my meaning here. He lives in me. Why would He stop speaking to me?

He wouldn't. That's my point. :)

Good morning, Mark!

I may forget every Bible verse I've ever learned, yet still His Spirit in me would be moving me to love others. To trust Him.

He would also be bringing scripture to your remembrance, even without a Bible.

Pre-pandemic, I spent a number of years serving in an assisted living home with an Alheimer's wing. I learned a great deal from these people! One thing I learned is that our body, our brains, that's not where the new creation lives.

Correct, which is why I have so many problems with Behold's theology. It's a mess.

When He says, I will never leave you, never forsake you, I choose to believe Him, and I find, surprise surprise, His Word is true, and He is in fact always here with me.

And this is indeed true. The problem, however, is that for some they can leave Him. The apostles used the Israelites in the wilderness as our examples numerous times, and they departed from Him to serve and worship other gods, something He warned would bring judgment and it did. So too in Books like Jude do you see the Lord warning that many were, as Paul also put it, "departing from the faith, and giving heed to seducing spirits."

This is why I have massive problems with the teaching that salvation is irrevocable. It suggests that if I should depart from the faith, and turn even to practicing Satanism or witchcraft, that God would still accept me. Some pass all these things off by tritely saying, "But a true Christian would never do that," but if the possibility did not exist for them to be able to, there would never have been so many warnings from God throughout both the Old Testament and the New not to turn to worshipping other gods.

 

[Amazed@grace]

The Holy Spirit does teach me. (1 John 2:27) I just pointed out some comments from AT Robertson because he made a very good point. ;)

I don't buy the, why listen to scholars, line either. We're all on a forum listening to each other discuss the bible.

Some are saved. Some are not.

 

[Riverwalker]

Yes it can be. I always recall the scripture of 'Not everyone who says to me Lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven', something along those lines

But those people were never saved. Oh sure the played at Christianity, but they never lived it. They never made the heart commitment to become saved

 

[marks]

This is why I used the term "see yourself" in a certain way. But put this in your own terms. I think this is at the heart of the matter.

So then here is the question. Two questions.

Who am I in Christ?

And,

What are the ramifications of believing or not believing these things?

Much love!

 

[Amazed@grace]

You wouldn't be calling me a crash-test dummy now, would you?
While accurate, it still wouldn't be nice! :)

LOL!

 

[marks]

Correct, which is why I have so many problems with Behold's theology. It's a mess.

I'm not following you here.

Much love!

 

[Amazed@grace]

At least you still have hair.
You do still have hair, right?

 

[marks]

Ah, but that in and of itself is a theological system. You can't escape it. :) Everyone's theology boils down to a system that will permeate through their interpretation of the entire Bible. Yours does too.

This is an interesting thought, I've been giving this some consideration.

I think this depend a lot on how one comes to the Bible. I used to want to "decode" it, to boil it down to it's doctrines and truths. Now I want to learn it, to know as best I can the words and verses and everything in exactly what it says. And when questions arise, or I'm wondering over something, that's exactly what happens, what you said, the Holy Spirit recalls these verses to my mind, first this one, then that one, then this one - wait, this one? OH! Look at that!

I guess you could say I've switched from studying the Bible as a Book of Truth, though of course it is, to learning it as a transformative instrument, intended to make me like my Brother.

We may have some cohesive arrangement of ideas, which someone could describe as a "systematic theology", but when I think of those words, and how you used them, to me it speaks of imposing my ideas on the text. I look for places which don't appear to agree with what I think so I can make sure that if I need to adjust my ideas that I can do that.

I suppose the difference is in how willing we are to change our minds. Every time I've changed my mind on the interpretation of a Scripture, I've felt like I've gained, and in some cases, in dramatic ways. So I don't have a problem with that.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

So then here is the question. Two questions.

Who am I in Christ?

And,

What are the ramifications of believing or not believing these things?

Much love!

?

Ok, back up... several pages.

In Post #21 I said:

Faith without works is dead.

In Post #24 you replied:

That's my point.

In Post # 29 I said:

Define the statement for me in your own terms, and maybe we can see where our definitions differ. For me, the statement "faith without works is dead" means that if someone does not walk in obedience to Jesus as Lord, they do not have anything resembling true faith in Him, because His word clearly says that those who give themselves to sinful lifestyles while supposedly "believing" in Him will not inherit eternal life.

In Post #30 you replied:

True rebirth makes you a different person. What you may call "faith", if it doesn't make you different, James calls that faith "dead". It didn't "do" anything (double entendre intended).

In Post #34 I said:

... make you different... see, but that statement can be interpreted in many ways, Mark. I don't think James intended the meaning to be "make you different so that you see yourself as a new person." Look at the context of the passage. True faith as he was describing it didn't just make you view yourself differently in the generic sense. It caused you to engage in good works, such as feeding the poor and hungry instead of sending them off with nothing by telling them, "Be warned and filled." (James 2:16).

To which you replied:

See yourself a new person? Those aren't my words.

Much love!

My response then was to say:

Mark, for when you come back, you are correct. That was my wording. I was kinda paraphrasing from what you said, but I should have quoted you directly. What I was referring to was right here:

I then quote you as saying, "For me, my primary intention, my one big thing to do, is, remain settled in my mind that God loves me, and has redeemed me, He owns me, has forgiven me, the first and foremost and #1 thing, trust Him!"

Then I added:

This is why I used the term "see yourself" in a certain way. But put this in your own terms. I think this is at the heart of the matter.

Your response was this:

So then here is the question. Two questions.

Who am I in Christ?

And,

What are the ramifications of believing or not believing these things?

Much love!

I do think my question is at the heart of the discussion, which is why I was hoping for a specific answer. These seem to be two new questions posed by you rather than addressing what I was asking.

Before going on to your questions, since I think the question I posed is at the heart of the discussion, how about if we answer that first before passing it by and it get lost in the shuffle. I feel like it's important.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I guess you could say I've switched from studying the Bible as a Book of Truth, though of course it is, to learning it as a transformative instrument, intended to make me like my Brother.

This is good.

We may have some cohesive arrangement of ideas, which someone could describe as a "systematic theology", but when I think of those words, and how you used them, to me it speaks of imposing my ideas on the text.

Yes, that's what I was referring to by it. I think you have become increasingly open to considering other perspectives and interpretations, because I've seen it over the last year or so. But you are (IMO) still very systematic in your theology when it comes to this particular issue, which is why we are currently neck deep in it together, LoL.

I suppose the difference is in how willing we are to change our minds. Every time I've changed my mind on the interpretation of a Scripture, I've felt like I've gained, and in some cases, in dramatic ways. So I don't have a problem with that.

Me as well, and that is why I stay open minded. But I never change a position without very sound scriptural proof to the contrary. It happens on occasion, and I am more than glad to admit I have been wrong when it does. I desire truth and accuracy over image any day of the week.

 

[April_Rose]

Salvation, lost? No, I don't think so. Now, my hairbrush, not only can that be lost...it is lost! :)

I was going to post the song from VeggieTales but it looks like you already beat me to it lol

P.S. Please don't create a video where you sing that song on guitar, or I will seriously disown you, LoL.

What? I would really like to see that. XD

Do you have a wife? Maybe it's time to let her brush your hair. Or maybe your mom?

Aww cute kitty,.. sort of looks like mine but she's a girl.

I may have just found your hairbrush. It's at the end of this GIF, LoL.

funny crash test dummy GIF - Bing

Lol I am just guessing if it is his is the green one not the bright pink one.

 

[Truman]

Do you have a wife? Maybe it's time to let her brush your hair. Or maybe your mom?

Nice kitty-cat!