Can salvation be lost
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I'm just saying that it borders on it a little too much for my taste. :)
I suppose there probably is, including the part about how those with self-confidence issues might never even come to the place of obedience if they didn't feel they were already accepted by God. But see, I agree with that much, only I think it has to be stressed that they can't live there forever, and the part many don't take into account is that a steady diet of "grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace..." can get misleading when it is preached at the expense of talking about making Him LORD over our lives. A terrible imbalance there leads to a lot of the trouble.
It's not so much an error in what is said sometimes, but in how much is said about one thing at the expense of how little is said about the other.
No, I'm not.
I'm talking about yielding ourselves to the working of the Holy Spirit in us. How we become less and He becomes more.
Jesus said, I do what the Father does, I speak what the Father speaks. I don't have a system. I have a relationship. The outworking of that relationship is my transformation. I come to know Him, and I become different, more like Him.
If we are focused on our behavior, and getting motivated to just finally start obeying the commandments, that's our focus.
I've found, s I focus on communing with Jesus, I get that communion, and transformation into the person I've worked so hard to become.
I've learned to stop working, start resting, and this brings with it loving, which brings obedience.
Much love!
I mean, are you just assuming that unless you crack the whip, people don't move? I'm saying, when we see God has thrown away the whip, we don't hesitate to follow.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
I don't mean in your general theology, I meant in your current argument.
Ah, but that in and of itself is a theological system. You can't escape it. :) Everyone's theology boils down to a system that will permeate through their interpretation of the entire Bible. Yours does too.
I don't advocate that. I advocate what you do on that issue. ;)
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Hmmmm... now here's an interesting statement. First of all "crack the whip" is too strong. Smacks of tyranny and spiritual abuse. But "bring the rod" is actually Biblical, and so is "spare the rod, spoil the child."
You see, when scripture talks about raising a child up in the way he should go so that when he is older he will not depart from it, it is talking there about teaching a child to walk in the fear of the Lord. It means that when he becomes a young man and the sins of the flesh present themselves to him, he will remember that he serves a God of judgment, not just a God of grace, and if he decides to turn aside to a life of sin he will ultimately pay a terrible price for it.
Yes God's love motivates us to follow Him, but it is the fear of God that is the beginning of wisdom. Without it, many would depart from Him, thinking all is well in "Graceland" when in fact it is not.
Surprising answer!
No, even if you take away all my Bibles, I STILL have that relationship. If I forget every Bible verse I've ever learned, every doctrine, every argument, I STILL have that relationship.
Much love!
Jesus is unto us wisdom.
But even so, God knows how to train His children. He is VERY capable.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
You wouldn't have a relationship if the Spirit stopped speaking to you, and if He spoke to you He would bring you back into remembrance of scripture, and if He brought you back into remembrance of scripture, you would be right back into interpreting it in light of your system. :)
You can't escape it. In Christ, you can only improve on it.
Yes, and He still encourages us to raise them up in the fear of the Lord, for those who have ears to hear.
God tells us that He blots out of His those who sin against Him, in the OT, and Jesus affirms names can be blotted out of the book of life:
GOD: Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
JESUS:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Scripture says white robes/raiment are the righteousness of saints, and Jesus warned those in the church of Sardis, that they have defiled their white robes, meaning they are no longer righteous, and warns them they must repent, or have their names blotted out of the book of life.
OSAS is not taught in scriptures, but in fact the opposite is true.
Jesus also taught that some believe only for a while, but then fall away.
Paul wrote that he had to control his flesh daily, lest after preaching to others, he could become a reprobate.
And he warned believers to examine themselves, to see if they are in the faith, or are reprobates.
There’s a books worth of warnings by Paul to be not deceived about the consequences of going back to living in sin, and that if they do, they won’t see heaven.
There is no scripture that states God will blot names out of his book of life.
For there are many books at the judgement seat. Would God blot names from his book of life, it would not be a book of the living. And it would mean those names he knew and wrote down before creating the world, if able to be erased due to our actions, would mean God was wrong in thinking those names belonged there first.
Furthermore, and lastly, the entire gospel is assurance of eternal irrevocable salvation.
Paul does not agree at all with you.
How sad you are not secure in Christ.
Yet Jesus says He rejects the lukewarm, and spews them out of His mouth, in Revelation.
That no one can take them out of His hand doesn’t mean He can’t let them go if they stop living righteously and start living in sin again, per my post about Jesus warning the church of Sardis that most of them had defiled their righteousness, and needed to repent, or He will blot them out of the book of life.
Paul wrote that to remain in Christ is conditional on continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and is conditional on walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.
There’s no promise that a believer can stop living righteously, and live in sin again, and remain in Christ.
And Jesus also made clear that if they turn lukewarm, He spews them out of His mouth, therefore rejecting them.
He also clearly taught that some believe only for a while, but then fall away.
And warned those in the church of Sardis that most of them had defiled their white robes, which scripture says are the righteousness of the saints, and said they needed to repent, or He would blot their names out of the book of life.
I don't know what tradition you follow that has corrupted the truth of God in such ways however, if it be God's will, you will come to the knowledge of the truth.
"Can salvation be lost"
Of course it can.
John 15:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
Of course it can.
John 15:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
No, it can't. Else God is a liar.
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.13 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."14
Apostle Paul:
"The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."10 Because the fruit is of the Holy Spirit, we won't have it unless we have the Holy Spirit in our lives. It is a test for the presence of the Spirit. We will have the fruit if we have the Spirit."
The cut vines cast into the fire are the nominal fake xtians. Those never nourished by the true vine.
"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissension, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
God knows his own.
"Lord , are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, `Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, `I don't know you or where you come from.'
"Then you will say, `We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
"But he will reply, `I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out."34
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Mark and I used to fight like cats and dogs, LoL. We still go at it over this issue right here, but at least we do so respectfully now without things turning ugly. So now it's nicer for all concerned, especially those reading along.
God bless, Shattered, and feel free to post your thoughts if you like.
Hidden
"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him,” (John 8:29).
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.”
Scriptural proof that Christians cannot lose their salvation | carm.org
- “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day,” (John 6:39).
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.”
Scriptural proof that Christians cannot lose their salvation | carm.org
No, God isn't a liar. You're just ignoring a LOT of Scripture.
John 15:6 (NKJV)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
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