Can Foundational Symbols of The Faith Become Idols?

[Fire-7]

Not too long ago, I was riding on the city bus. I think it was a divine setup, for certain reasons. But to get to the point, I found myself having a conversation with another Christian woman and man about philosophy and religion (they both had taken a philosophy course at the college which I was interested in taking). As the man got off the bus, another man got on the bus and sat behind us (the woman and I). He overheard us talking, and it turned out that he was a muslim (and the guy was no idiot). We discussed a few things, but one point hebrought up was that Christians worship the cross to the point that they are in idolatry.

It was the first time I had heard anyone bring up such an idea, but it wasn't the first time I had thought about it. In my opinion, even the bible, it seems, gets endorsed a little too much by Christians. I know that it is the fundation that our faith is built upon, but it's like some christians (well most really) take it too far, to the point where it seems that we are supposed to be worshiping black ink, on thin paper, with a leather binder--for instance. The moment you say something that's not mentioned in the traditional context of scripture, you're labeled a heretic and told that you aren't to go outside of the confines of the scriptures. But have you ever thought that the bible itself is a product of politics? You may not think of it this way, but there was a roundtable meeting of church authorities, who came together and discussed which books would be included and which would be excluded from the book. I've never read this myself, but I have heard that the original King James version of the bible mentioned something about unicorns? Whether it was "canon" or "non-canon", there was so much omitted from the original scriptures, yet, we presumably accept what was given to us at face value. Even the apostle Paul considered presumtion to be equal with the sin of idolatry. Even the author of the book "Surprised By The Voice of God", proposed that many christians hold the physical (logos) "word of God" over the rhema voice of God. James Goll, author of "The Beginner's Guide To Hearing God", gave the order of operation, when it comes to getting in contact with God, in which he said that it's Rhema first and then logos. But it feels to me like some people put God in a box, and that box is called the Holy Bible.

But what do you think about this matter? Do you think that it's possible to worship the cross, the b i b l e, or even things like water baptism, tongues, and other events?

 

[[email protected]]

The cross is the most widely recognized logo on the planet.

Wars within Christendom have been fought over the use or abuse of symbolism. Oliver Cromwell led a revolt partly inspired by a complete lack of icons or symbolism in the place of worship. Is it worth killing each other to prove a point?

I wear a gold cross around my neck. I don't worship it and I don't think it has magical powers. It's just a bit of metal that represents my faith. The vast majority of Christians believe the same. There's nothing wrong with the use and display of your faith's logo. The world is full of logos today. Might as well promote the best.

I'd like to know where a muslim gets off accusing a Christian of idolatry.
The holy book of Islam, the Qur'an, is the only religious document on the planet that openly advocates the murder of non-believers. I can provide numerous quotes from that document upon request if you doubt it.

Mohammad, the false prophet who took dictation for his recitations (Qur'an means recitations) from a demon (he admitted it to his wife), was also the leader of an army that sacked the town of Mecca as well as many others. Mecca isn't a holy city as much as it is a trophy of Muslim warfare yet Muslims act as though it is somthing special because they go there TO WORSHIP A ROCK. No Muslim rock worshipper has a right to accuse anybody else of idolatry.

Mr. Mohammad is worshipped by Muslims as a virtual god and anyone who disrespects his name, his image or his hypocritical life is subject to death. If that isn't idolatry I don't know what is.

Christians, the cross and the person of Jesus Christ get disrespected all the time. One million disrespected Christians are not as dangerous, idiotic and insane as one million disrespected Muslims. In case you haven't guessed I don't accept criticism from hypocritical, idolatrous, murderous Muslims as valid in any way shape or form.

Back to the original post, is it possible to worship the cross, the Bible, water baptism, tongues or events?
The cross is a holy object. It is not generally mistaken for God by anyone that I know of or have heard about.

The Bible is the word of God. I know of no one who prays to it or expects the thing to answer. It's a book. It does not have personality.

Water baptism is a sacrament, a form of tradition and a tool of worship just as prayer, tongues or singing. Even the false religion of Islam has sacraments and aids to worship. Do they pray to their rugs?

As for the voice of God, there are few people who would recognize it if they heard it.

They need to be taught and that's why God provids the Bible and spiritual teachers.

 

[aspen]

everything in creation can be used as an idol. Protestants during the Reformation believed the answer to the problem of worshiping symbols instead of God was to try and get rid of as many symbols as possible - Jehovah's Witnesses have taken this idea as far as it can go, by removing all symbols from their Kingdom Hall. The problem is that people are still guilty of worshiping creation rather than God alone - the problem is not the objects or symbols it is humanities' heart. There is nothing wrong with using concrete symbols to assist us in the worship of an abstract God - sacraments are sacred symbols. The problem occurs when a person's heart is not being redeemed through their own unwillingness to submit their hearts to being justified and sanctified. When people remain unredeemed they started using the sacraments as a means to an end or the Bible to assert their own person power. They may also buy into our culture of consumerism and worship their TV or computer. We worship objects for many reasons - I think one of the main reasons is the same as the reason people use pornography instead of engaging in a real relationship - it is less risky and the person gets to be in control.

 

[jiggyfly]

As for the voice of God, there are few people who would recognize it if they heard it.

They need to be taught and that's why God provids the Bible and spiritual teachers.

I agree RJP, but the problem is that with the Christian religious system, this is more than just the means to a goal it has become the goal and so most never learn to recognize God's voice. Tis a sad story that has been replayed over and over down through the ages.

 

[[email protected]]

I agree RJP, but the problem is that with the Christian religious system, this is more than just the means to a goal it has become the goal and so most never learn to recognize God's voice. Tis a sad story that has been replayed over and over down through the ages.

True. It is sometimes an unsettling thing to hear God's voice, or inspiration, or divine epiphany, however one experiences it. Folks don't like to be told they're wrong or that they need to live differently, or even to slip an extra green in the offering on Sunday morning.

IMO the 'problem' with the Christian religious system isn't the flock. It's the shepards. I believe that the prophets of the O.T. voiced God's issue with the shepards of the day as well. Mostly it seems that the problem with spirituality is a problem with human nature.........too much nature and not enough spirit.

 

[Foreigner]

In my opinion, even the bible, it seems, gets endorsed a little too much by Christians. I know that it is the fundation that our faith is built upon, but it's like some christians (well most really) take it too far, to the point where it seems that we are supposed to be worshiping black ink, on thin paper, with a leather binder--for instance.

-- The divinely inspired Word of God, created to instruct, correct, witness, and draw people to accept Jesus - used to help bring MILLIONS of people to Christ - is "endorsed a little too much?" lol Interesting....

I have seen people drop it in onto pews from the balcony, onto floors, pages torn out to hand to people, writing, highlighting and underlining in it until it was almost unrecognizable, etc. etc. etc.

Our church also hands them out to whoever wants one. Homeless shelters, druge rehab centers, prisons and jails. Why would they do that if they felt that the treatment of the Bible was important and that it would always need to be treated with care?

We discussed a few things, but one point hebrought up was that Christians worship the cross to the point that they are in idolatry.

-- How exactly does one "worship the cross?"

The moment you say something that's not mentioned in the traditional context of scripture, you're labeled a heretic and told that you aren't to go outside of the confines of the scriptures.

-- Interesting rhetoric. Infammatory, but interesting...
Asking someone to show how/why something related to our Lord and Savior should be taken as accurate or inspired when it isn't substantiated by God's Word (or in some cases goes against God's Word).....is hardly heresy.

There are people here, such as Aspen, whose beliefs are not supported Biblically. But he is a true Christian and I expect to see him in heaven.
We could not disagree with each other more, but I would not think to call him a Heretic. I have no way of seeing into his heart.

This statement of yours, as I said, is inflammatory rhetoric. Nothing more.

I've never read this myself, but I have heard that the original King James version of the bible mentioned something about unicorns?

-- Ah, unsubstantied, yet to you it is worth mentioning. Yup, that's how it's done.

. But have you ever thought that the bible itself is a product of politics?

-- The Bible is either the inspired Word of God or it is not. It really is that simple.

But what do you think about this matter? Do you think that it's possible to worship the cross, the b i b l e, or even things like water baptism, tongues, and other events?

-- I have never met anyone who has done any of these things. 30 years a Christian, living in several different states, as well as multiple countries in Europe and I have never seen anyone worship a cross, Bible, water baptism, tongues or "other events."

This thread appears to be more of a fishing expedition...

 

[jiggyfly]

True. It is sometimes an unsettling thing to hear God's voice, or inspiration, or divine epiphany, however one experiences it. Folks don't like to be told they're wrong or that they need to live differently, or even to slip an extra green in the offering on Sunday morning.

IMO the 'problem' with the Christian religious system isn't the flock. It's the shepards. I believe that the prophets of the O.T. voiced God's issue with the shepards of the day as well. Mostly it seems that the problem with spirituality is a problem with human nature.........too much nature and not enough spirit.

I totally agree, good post too.

 

[aspen]

everything in creation can be used as an idol. Protestants during the Reformation believed the answer to the problem of worshiping symbols instead of God was to try and get rid of as many symbols as possible - Jehovah's Witnesses have taken this idea as far as it can go, by removing all symbols from their Kingdom Hall. The problem is that people are still guilty of worshiping creation rather than God alone - the problem is not the objects or symbols it is humanities' heart. There is nothing wrong with using concrete symbols to assist us in the worship of an abstract God - sacraments are sacred symbols. The problem occurs when a person's heart is not being redeemed through their own unwillingness to submit their hearts to being justified and sanctified. When people remain unredeemed they started using the sacraments as a means to an end or the Bible to assert their own person power. They may also buy into our culture of consumerism and worship their TV or computer. We worship objects for many reasons - I think one of the main reasons is the same as the reason people use pornography instead of engaging in a real relationship - it is less risky and the person gets to be in control.

Another problem is that humans use symbols to communicate and understand the world at the most basic level - claiming that the use of symbols is bad and trying remove them is sort of like seeing the problem of air pollution and attempting to remove the atmosphere to solve the problem

I agree RJP, but the problem is that with the Christian religious system, this is more than just the means to a goal it has become the goal and so most never learn to recognize God's voice. Tis a sad story that has been replayed over and over down through the ages.

This is an interesting dilemma.. In my experience, once I did recognize God's voice, I was able to recognize all the times He was present in my past. As cheesy as the Footprints poem maybe to some - it is a good description of what it was like - the only difference was that I seemed to remember God consistently. It was like tasting a food you forgot existed, but used to enjoy all the time - never realizing it. I guess there really isn't a good way to describe it.

-- The divinely inspired Word of God, created to instruct, correct, witness, and draw people to accept Jesus - used to help bring MILLIONS of people to Christ - is "endorsed a little too much?" lol Interesting....

I have seen people drop it in onto pews from the balcony, onto floors, pages torn out to hand to people, writing, highlighting and underlining in it until it was almost unrecognizable, etc. etc. etc.

Our church also hands them out to whoever wants one. Homeless shelters, druge rehab centers, prisons and jails. Why would they do that if they felt that the treatment of the Bible was important and that it would always need to be treated with care?






-- How exactly does one "worship the cross?"






-- Interesting rhetoric. Infammatory, but interesting...
Asking someone to show how/why something related to our Lord and Savior should be taken as accurate or inspired when it isn't substantiated by God's Word (or in some cases goes against God's Word).....is hardly heresy.

There are people here, such as Aspen, whose beliefs are not supported Biblically. But he is a true Christian and I expect to see him in heaven.
We could not disagree with each other more, but I would not think to call him a Heretic. I have no way of seeing into his heart.

This statement of yours, as I said, is inflammatory rhetoric. Nothing more.






-- Ah, unsubstantied, yet to you it is worth mentioning. Yup, that's how it's done.







-- The Bible is either the inspired Word of God or it is not. It really is that simple.








-- I have never met anyone who has done any of these things. 30 years a Christian, living in several different states, as well as multiple countries in Europe and I have never seen anyone worship a cross, Bible, water baptism, tongues or "other events."

This thread appears to be more of a fishing expedition...

What is interesting to me is that Fire is simply stating his experience and instead of listening and accepting it for what it is - his experience; you have attempted to deny and dismiss everything that he has said. This response is so common! It is the reason my wife left her fundamentalist church, explored Buddhism and then followed me into Catholicism; her reality was not only not represented by the doctrine and culture of her church, it was denied and silenced.

 

[Fire-7]

-- The divinely inspired Word of God, created to instruct, correct, witness, and draw people to accept Jesus - used to help bring MILLIONS of people to Christ - is "endorsed a little too much?" lol Interesting....

I have seen people drop it in onto pews from the balcony, onto floors, pages torn out to hand to people, writing, highlighting and underlining in it until it was almost unrecognizable, etc. etc. etc.

Our church also hands them out to whoever wants one. Homeless shelters, druge rehab centers, prisons and jails. Why would they do that if they felt that the treatment of the Bible was important and that it would always need to be treated with care?






-- How exactly does one "worship the cross?"






-- Interesting rhetoric. Infammatory, but interesting...
Asking someone to show how/why something related to our Lord and Savior should be taken as accurate or inspired when it isn't substantiated by God's Word (or in some cases goes against God's Word).....is hardly heresy.

There are people here, such as Aspen, whose beliefs are not supported Biblically. But he is a true Christian and I expect to see him in heaven.
We could not disagree with each other more, but I would not think to call him a Heretic. I have no way of seeing into his heart.

This statement of yours, as I said, is inflammatory rhetoric. Nothing more.






-- Ah, unsubstantied, yet to you it is worth mentioning. Yup, that's how it's done.







-- The Bible is either the inspired Word of God or it is not. It really is that simple.








-- I have never met anyone who has done any of these things. 30 years a Christian, living in several different states, as well as multiple countries in Europe and I have never seen anyone worship a cross, Bible, water baptism, tongues or "other events."

This thread appears to be more of a fishing expedition...

You seem to be on the defense, and I'm not attacking. What do you suppose I'm fishing for? I may be digging for the hidden treasures of the Spirit. My goal is to do everything right before G-d. I'm only asking these questions because I don't want to do anything that would keep me out of the presence of G-d.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Not too long ago, I was riding on the city bus. I think it was a divine setup, for certain reasons. But to get to the point, I found myself having a conversation with another Christian woman and man about philosophy and religion (they both had taken a philosophy course at the college which I was interested in taking). As the man got off the bus, another man got on the bus and sat behind us (the woman and I). He overheard us talking, and it turned out that he was a muslim (and the guy was no idiot). We discussed a few things, but one point hebrought up was that Christians worship the cross to the point that they are in idolatry.

It was the first time I had heard anyone bring up such an idea, but it wasn't the first time I had thought about it. In my opinion, even the bible, it seems, gets endorsed a little too much by Christians. I know that it is the fundation that our faith is built upon, but it's like some christians (well most really) take it too far, to the point where it seems that we are supposed to be worshiping black ink, on thin paper, with a leather binder--for instance. The moment you say something that's not mentioned in the traditional context of scripture, you're labeled a heretic and told that you aren't to go outside of the confines of the scriptures. But have you ever thought that the bible itself is a product of politics? You may not think of it this way, but there was a roundtable meeting of church authorities, who came together and discussed which books would be included and which would be excluded from the book. I've never read this myself, but I have heard that the original King James version of the bible mentioned something about unicorns? Whether it was "canon" or "non-canon", there was so much omitted from the original scriptures, yet, we presumably accept what was given to us at face value. Even the apostle Paul considered presumtion to be equal with the sin of idolatry. Even the author of the book "Surprised By The Voice of God", proposed that many christians hold the physical (logos) "word of God" over the rhema voice of God. James Goll, author of "The Beginner's Guide To Hearing God", gave the order of operation, when it comes to getting in contact with God, in which he said that it's Rhema first and then logos. But it feels to me like some people put God in a box, and that box is called the Holy Bible.

But what do you think about this matter? Do you think that it's possible to worship the cross, the b i b l e, or even things like water baptism, tongues, and other events?

I'll try not to leave anything out, I'm about to fall asleep. (as usual)

Some Christians do believe that we shouldn't have any graven images of anything in heaven or on earth. One of the 10 commandments. Some include the cross with this. There are people that infact use statues or symbols as a form of worship and hold such items sacred and treat them as God.

However, if you see when God commanded the ark of the covenant to be built, it was enshrined with specifics with Gold and certain woods. Wars were faught over it. It had to cherubs on it, either they were statues or the actual angels. I'm not sure, I haven't read about that in a long time. So, the scrolls were commanded to be treated sacred. Same with the temples.

The cross itself serves as a reminder to us of Jesus' sacrifice. However, to some an empty cross means more and shows Jesus rose. To others the crucifix shows Jesus' sacrifice and means more to them. Some, it's just a symbol much like a flag. To others these are absolutely sacred and treated the same way. I think the later goes a bit far.

I don't know who decided what was to go in the Old Testament. Originally these same stories were passed down by word of mouth. The early Jews had no written language. Later it was borrowed, and the stories were written.

At one time the books of the New Testament and possibly the Old Testament weren't in any particular order. It was a huge chore to search and rummage through the Scriptures. This council you speak of was merely deciding to organize the whole Bible into chapters and verses making it easier to understand and search through. Alot of the books aren't in chronological order, so there's still bouncing around. There's also only a few books that were left out, but the Catholics accept them, that's the Aporapha (sp?).

Prior to the KJ version of the Bible, a person had to know another language in order to read this. I forget the language, but, I'm assuming it's Latin. KJ, wanted everyone to be able to read the Bible. He hired lots and lots of scribes, and also hired auditors to check and proof read. Oddly, many of the scribes were actually athiests. To some that seems like that gives way for people to change things. To others (myself included) give way that this all treated like any other form of science and transcription. As, they purely wanted to translate a recorded document.

There were Unicorns in the Bible, but if you reasearch the Strongs, the Unicorns were actually bulls or something similar. Even if the Bible did mention Unicorns,, What's the problem? Would it be a big deal if the Bible mentioned Dodo's? How about BigFoot? We don't know that Unicorns never existed.

Now, Holding the Bible higher than the Word of God,,,,,,,, Not true. We are living with other spriits around us, each one telling us something. If a demon says something and claims to be God (remember satan appears as an angel of light to decieve) What would we test it against? Any spirit could tell us anything and say it's from God and we'd have chaos.

There wasn't as much omitted from the Bible as you would think.

I hold the Bible as sacred, and I hold the Bible as the written word of God, in which we have something to compare and a guide to go by. It seems we all disagree, and we do on many issues. But, the word of God is living, in that it's deep and there's so much to learn, and each message has many different meanings. The Lord let's us all know what we need to know when we need to know it. The best first start is taking every word at face value, then going from there and learning.

Bascially, if you get an idea, or hear a word from man or spirit, It will align with the Bible. If it doesn't then it's not God. God would never contradict himself or go against His word. Now, in order to understand anything in the Bible you must believe. So, you have both, the written word, and the spoken word of God which is wisdom and understanding of His written word.

This Box that people put God in is, our own limited understanding and our own expectations. It's not the Bible. Presumption is not a sin by any means, and never was considered a sin. It's often a mistake, but not a sin.

 

[[email protected]]

Prior to the KJ version of the Bible, a person had to know another language in order to read this. I forget the language, but, I'm assuming it's Latin. KJ, wanted everyone to be able to read the Bible. He hired lots and lots of scribes, and also hired auditors to check and proof read. Oddly, many of the scribes were actually athiests. To some that seems like that gives way for people to change things.

The first comprehensive assembly of the Hebrew O.T. and the Greek N.T. gospels and letters were in Greek. The collection is called the Septuagint.
The first assembly of the Hebrew and Greek texts into Latin was called the Vetus Latina. It was revised in the late 4th century and is known as the Vulgate.
The first translation of the scripture into English was commissioned by King James. Some scholars believe that William Shakespeare composed the final text.

The KJV does seem to have the same glowing quality and capacity for description as Shakespeare's notable body of work.

A lot of people like to diss the Bible because of the process of canonization. In my opinion, some of the modern translations are disrespectful of that process and make editorial additions, deletions or changes just because the original text isn't politically correct or because some of the text images may have a negative impact. Nobody decides any more whether this or that should be included into a new version of the Bible. I do not buy or reference ANY of the newer versions because of that.

I have a general question for the readers here. It refers to the following verse.

"...if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book."
Rev 22:19

Some years ago, one of the 'private' new versions of the Bible was issued. The fellow who was in charge of the translation felt that certain passages of the book of Revelation were to be deleted or reEdited into a more 'child safe/friendly' context. As I understand it, most of the book of Revelation was gutted in the process. When the guy's translation went to press he began to lose his voice. When his translation hit the bookstores, he lost his voice compeltely. As a result he couldn't make the rounds of TV & radio talk shows to push his bible. That's the story I heard anyway.

I do not know the version he published and I do not know the man's name.

If anyone is familiar with this story and has this information I'd appreciate hearing about it.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

The first comprehensive assembly of the Hebrew O.T. and the Greek N.T. gospels and letters were in Greek. The collection is called the Septuagint.
The first assembly of the Hebrew and Greek texts into Latin was called the Vetus Latina. It was revised in the late 4th century and is known as the Vulgate.
The first translation of the scripture into English was commissioned by King James. Some scholars believe that William Shakespeare composed the final text.

The KJV does seem to have the same glowing quality and capacity for description as Shakespeare's notable body of work.

A lot of people like to diss the Bible because of the process of canonization. In my opinion, some of the modern translations are disrespectful of that process and make editorial additions, deletions or changes just because the original text isn't politically correct or because some of the text images may have a negative impact. Nobody decides any more whether this or that should be included into a new version of the Bible. I do not buy or reference ANY of the newer versions because of that.

I have a general question for the readers here. It refers to the following verse.

"...if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book."
Rev 22:19

Some years ago, one of the 'private' new versions of the Bible was issued. The fellow who was in charge of the translation felt that certain passages of the book of Revelation were to be deleted or reEdited into a more 'child safe/friendly' context. As I understand it, most of the book of Revelation was gutted in the process. When the guy's translation went to press he began to lose his voice. When his translation hit the bookstores, he lost his voice compeltely. As a result he couldn't make the rounds of TV & radio talk shows to push his bible. That's the story I heard anyway.

I do not know the version he published and I do not know the man's name.

If anyone is familiar with this story and has this information I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Very nice post! Thanks!