Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[marks]

Oopsie, sry! :)

That's OK, no one was biting. So you gave me the opportunity anyway!

:)

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't sound like anything I've said.

Much love!

Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) is the biblical answer to the contention that we can walk away ourselves, you are not aware of that?

Look at the last few words in verse 40.

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[justbyfaith]

That's an interesting reply.

You find it important to publicly share your negative opinion of me. Why is that? Instead of giving a meaningful reply to what I wrote.

Any response to my post? Or just a personal shot at me?

Much love!

That was not a negative opinion of you but an assessment of your reaction to what I said to you.

 

[marks]

Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) is the biblical answer to the contention that we can walk away ourselves, you are not aware of that?

Look at the last few words in verse 40.

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

You keep repeating this . . . but you do not respond to my responses. So it gets really repetative.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That was not a negative opinion of you but an assessment of your reaction to what I said to you.

Yeah. Your assessment. Your opinion. Your negative opinion shared online.

 

[marks]

That was not a negative opinion of you but an assessment of your reaction to what I said to you.

My reaction . . .

marks said: ↑

The old covenant is not the new covenant, and gentiles are not Israel.

Yes, the gentiles are the people of God, having found grace in Christ. Yes, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. No, the gentile church is not building an ark.

Similarities between different people do not make them the same audience for a passage of Scripture which is given to one of them.

And no, the gentile church is not the nation of Israel, with whom God made that covenant.

Much love!

I was here giving you an example where there is a similarity in our relationship with God, but a clear distinction in certain aspects.

To which you reply,

It seems to me that you are hardening your heart to the reality of the matter.

Well, so it seems to you, and whomever reads this will know that. What is the value in that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv) is the biblical answer to the contention that we can walk away ourselves, you are not aware of that?

It's not. That will apply to Israel. I think this is a misuse of the passage.

There is a very different reason why it is that we do not leave from God. It is because we have been born of Him, and are His family. God is conforming us to Jesus, and has assured us that He will successfully complete this.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, so it seems to you, and whomever reads this will know that. What is the value in that?

The fact that you read this and may realize that that is what you were doing and also cease from hardening your heart against the reality of the matter.

It's not. That will apply to Israel. I think this is a misuse of the passage.

There is a very different reason why it is that we do not leave from God. It is because we have been born of Him, and are His family. God is conforming us to Jesus, and has assured us that He will successfully complete this.

Much love!

But, you have to realize that if Jeremiah 32:38-40 does not apply to Gentiles, then Gentiles can depart from the LORD.

Because in Jeremiah 32:38-40, the fear of the LORD is a safeguard against departing from Him for those of whom it is speaking.

So, if it does not apply to Gentiles, Gentiles do not have that as a safeguard.

And therefore, the contention of those who deny eternal security concerning John 10:27-30, that we can walk away from Him ourselves, applies to Gentiles.

For unless you have another scripture verse that says you will not walk away from Him as a Gentile, you are out of luck as to this safeguard if Jeremiah 32:38-40 does not apply to Gentiles.

Furthermore, the everlasting covenant is indeed given to Israel; but it is still the New Covenant, and Gentiles were included in it.

So, it applies to Gentiles as well as Jews; even the everlasting covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 32:40.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is a very different reason why it is that we do not leave from God. It is because we have been born of Him, and are His family. God is conforming us to Jesus, and has assured us that He will successfully complete this.

Philippians 1:6, however, was written to "the saints which are in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons." (Philippians 1:1).

So, you cannot bank on it as applying to you personally unless you have somehow obtained it as a promise by faith in a supernatural manner.

I know that I have obtained the promise of Jeremiah 32:38-40 by faith; I know that I am not excluded from the promise if I am not of the seed of Jacob.

For reasons I have stated in recent posts.

And also, Jeremiah 32:38-40 specifically promises that the one who fears the LORD "shall not depart from Him"; while Philippians, which may not apply to you, only promises that He will complete the work that He started in you (if you are one of the saints at Philippi or one of the bishops or deacons at Philippi).

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 11:20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21, For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22, Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[Cooper]

The Israelites were God's chosen people, but they followed other gods.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Adam and Eve had personal knowledge of God, and they believed in him, but they chose to be disobedient of their own free will.

What did they do? They followed Satan. It was THEIR choice.
.

Correct! They had personal free will! Which was destroyed in the fall. we are all products of teh fallen Adam and Eve and as Ephesians say are by NATURE objects of wrath and children of disobedience. When we are born AGAIN, we are restored to our trichotomous state (body, soul, and spirit) and have free will restored.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not sure if you did this somehow or the forum....it is quirky sometimes...There are quotes here that are not from me. That is funny.
Post #289 addresses the rest of this.
And as far as sin....I cannot know what is running around in your head. I am address the written beliefs of Calvinism. So I am not accusing you of anything.

Well for this thread as to "Calvinism vs. Armenianism" I believe the five points of Calvin are 100% biblical, in their basic definititon.

IN addressing the further points of Calvinism, I do not know if I agree with them all. I am not part of a calvinistic church nor a reformed church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

BTW, it's Jacob Arminius. Who was persecuted by Calvinists. Not Armenians. Armenians live in Armenia.

I know that- I guess my spelling of the followers of old Jacob is not up to snuff! :

 

[Renniks]

Correct! They had personal free will! Which was destroyed in the fall. we are all products of teh fallen Adam and Eve and as Ephesians say are by NATURE objects of wrath and children of disobedience. When we are born AGAIN, we are restored to our trichotomous state (body, soul, and spirit) and have free will restored.

Scripture evidence for this strange interpretation?
Being objects of wrath makes no sense if we don't choose sin of our own will. If God chooses it for us, which is the logical conclusion of Calvinism, he's punishing people for what he did!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I say foreknowing something and causing it to happen is not the same thing at all. Have you never heard of Molinism? If this is the best of all possible worlds, sin was inevitable. God would rather have some people love him, even if it means most will rebel. He wanted us so much he died for us. Sin is just the absence of God... but you would make it something God decreed and caused to happen.

Sometimes foreknowledge is causing something to happen, sometime it is simply knowing what will happen, but every time biblically the word foreknowledge is used, it is knowing in advance because it is caused in advance and it only refers to Jesus dying for us, and believers being choisen before the foundation of the world!

Then you are being inconsistent and trying to have it both ways and believing contradictions. That's your choice, but a double-minded man is unstable.

Well if that is what you think, you should stop responding to such an unstable man. And I am not being inconsistent. I can accept and reject what men write based on how faithful they are to SCripture. That is being faithful to SCripture over being a blind follower of one mans writings. I follow Jesus blindly- but men I follow as Paul said, as they follow Christ (which means they are faithful to His Word). If you call that inconsistent- then nearly all believers I know are inconsistent, for we seek biblical truth wherever it is found.

Lol, you don't understand that your view of election and predestination, makes what John Calvin said here true? You have already told me God caused sin, but now you're going to waffle about whether he chooses what shirt you chose to wear today?

What John Calvin said in His five points are what teh bible teaches, not the other way around! He simply showed what teh bible teaches to rebut Jacob Armenius. And in the sense that nothing in the universe can be unless God allows it, then yes He is the first cause, because if He doesn't allow it it cannot happen. Do you agree with that statement? Yes or no. Or do you believe there is an entity in the universe that has a will stronger than Gods.

BTW I fully understand my beliefs about teh biblical teachings of election and predestination. But thanks for trying to tell me what I do and don't think. YOu fail at it miserably but thanks for trying!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Can you show me biblically the justification for saying that a person is irresistibly drawn to Christ?

I think that the same verses that you use to justify that doctrine, can be interpreted to be teaching what I am saying; if you go into the fray with the understanding that mankind is responsible for his behaviour and that therefore his judgment at the end of time will not be a kangaroo court.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Do you need more?

 

[Cooper]

Correct! They had personal free will! Which was destroyed in the fall. we are all products of teh fallen Adam and Eve and as Ephesians say are by NATURE objects of wrath and children of disobedience. When we are born AGAIN, we are restored to our trichotomous state (body, soul, and spirit) and have free will restored.

Adam and Eve had free will before the fall, as they so ably demonstrated, and we are still able to choose Christ, or not as the case may be, after the fall today.

People do not seem to understand, that from the foundation of the earth everyone was predestined to be a child of God, but like Adam and Eve we each go our own way.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Fools and similar believe that God is responsible for the evil that men do and cause, because they have been allowed freewill to choose their personal behavior and destiny.

The biggest fool of all, teaches that because man chooses to use his freewill to bite the wrong apple, and rape, and kill, and watch "Game of Thrones", and "R"Rated Movies, or porn on the internet.......or that because man chooses to wrongly choose EVIL over GOOD, time and time again, all their lives as their personal homosexual sexuality CHOICE......that all this is God's fault for = allowing it.

Have you ever met one of these fools?
If you do, then tell them that its a fool's game and a fools errand to try to prove that God is responsible for the evil that men do and cause, such as killing God's Son on The Cross.

If unsaved man has free will I would agrtee with you, but the Bible clearly teaches the unsaved are incapable of choosing God thus do not have free will.

God gave Adam and Eve free will as well as the angels. Satna and 1/3 of teh angels chose evil, and Adam and Eve did as well. we are products of our fallen parents with a spirit that is dead due to sin.

And you are drawing false conclusions about what teh bible teaches. If God refused to allow it to happen, it would not happen. Do you believe that?

Do you believe that Gods will is the absolute sovereign will of the Universe?
Do you believe that nothing can happen without God allowing believe that Satan would have fallen, if God had not absolutely allowed Him to choose to fall or not??

Now just because God allows it to happen, does not mean He made it happen. He foreknew it would happen and allowed it to happen or His purposes and to work out His will according to His counsel and not mans reasoning!

 

[Behold]

That isn't what you said.

You pitted the New Testament God against a different God of the Old Testament.

No, you implied i Did.
So, just be honest.
Start anytime you like.