CALVINISM IS SIMPLY THE GOSPEL BELIEVED

[Logikos]

you are under law not under grace my friend.

Your the run running the wrong path. Your trusting your own self and not God to save you.. The jews tried that and lost.. I would not expect you will fair much better

That's rather judgmental of you!

Keep up the good work!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe OSAS is a damnable doctrine, besides being unbiblical.

So beliefe that we have eternal life is damnable????

And here's the reason why:
OSAS states that once a person becomes born again, nothing he does (or does not do) can keep him from being saved.

this is either true, or we are not saved by grace. You can not get away from this.

Let's consider the ramifications for a minute.

Is this what Jesus taught?
Certainly not.

John 5:28-29 comes to mind:
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

And yet, you'll read many on these forums that state that ONLY faith is necessary and some will go so far as to say that good deeds/works are a SIN, because they nullify the sacrifice of Jesus.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
Jesus said that if we want to be His disciples - those that follow Him - we must pick up our cross daily.
Luke 9:23

Paul taught that IF we deny Jesus HE will also deny us.
2 Timothy 2:12

Those sound like very serious statements that should be heeded by every Christian.

Those that teach OSAS are putting many in danger of becoming lost, because it goes against what Jesus taught,
and Paul and every other writer of the NT.

Your trying to assert our sanctification (christian Growth) where we recieve blessings or chastening from God is the same as our justification, which is based on god through grace not works.

this is the issue.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Ritajanice

Respectfully

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

respectfully, We are those who are Gods children. A non child of God is not part of this judgment, which is called the bema judgment

They will be at the great white throne judgment. were all non believers will be, no believer or child of God will be present at this judgment.

All I have to do is prove one of your points are in fatal error.. And It was too easy

 

[Eternally Grateful]

One would say being accused of 'denying the Holy Trinity' and 'disagreeing with regarding the Christian faith' is more like 'swinging' and 'slinging'. Ought not new members be treated in more hospitable manner? It takes two to make a board.

One should not accuse someone of not knowing other people. especially if they are new. and have no possible knowledge of that person. would you not agree?

A new member want to be treated with hospitality, maybe he should show it himself..

or again, are you a new member who came back?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Using 'We can not judge who is saved or not' card doesn't give you free pass in passing judgment unto an entire denomination.

true,

But I do not think the person you accused would say that.. At least I have never heard her damn an entire denomination.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did you see my post no. 337 re the above?
It explains why I disagree with OSAS so much...
which you actually might already know.

yes, and I responded to it.

It scares me to no end people would look to self. and not God for salvation..

Sadly, even in biblical times. People could not stop this. and are most likely in hades today because they could not give it all to God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

"as it is written: 'There is no one who is righteous, not even one; there is no one who has understanding, there is no one who seeks God.'" (Rom 3:10-11)

"You were dead through the trespasses and sins...But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:1, 4-5)

"Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes." (John 5:21)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love." (Eph 1:3-4)

"God, who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began" (2Tim 1:9)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13)

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8)

"Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son." (Acts 20:28)

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9)

"Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to set us free from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father" (Gal 1:4)

"...for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13)

"A certain woman named Lydia, a worshiper of God, was listening to us; she was from the city of Thyatira and a dealer in purple cloth. The Lord opened her heart to listen eagerly to what was said by Paul." (Acts 16:14)

"...and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom 9:23-24)

"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)

"Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God." (Rom 5:9)

"For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 8:38-39)

"But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one." (2Thess 3:3)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who are being protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1Pet 1:3-5)

If you sincerely and honestly believe those Scriptures, you ARE a Calvinist! If you deny those clear statements of Scripture, what are you?
When you hear/read people use "all", "every" & "world" etc. to say it means all individuals: ask them to show why those words mean that in the context. Look the words up in a dictionary and see if that is automatically the meaning of those words.

No, that is Christianity, the Word of God, not the words of Calvin. I wouldn't elevate him in such a way as to adopt an alternative label for Christians. I agree with thise scriptures, butnI AM NOT A CALVINIST. I am not an Arminian either.

 

[Piers Plowman]

One should not accuse someone of not knowing other people. especially if they are new. and have no possible knowledge of that person. would you not agree?

A new member want to be treated with hospitality, maybe he should show it himself..

or again, are you a new member who came back?

I mean, I could leave right now, if I am not welcome here. I have no issue with that.
No, really, I have no emotion in regards to that. If it means peace for all involved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'll have to agree with you here.
But regarding the Eucharist, I know for sure that about 80% of Catholics do not believe in transubstantiation.
Honesty, the more I read John 6, the more I'm tending to believe that either that is true, or at least, the Real Presence.
I say this because of John 6:53...in the Greek it means to chew on.

I chew on Gods word every day. It does not mean I chew on a wafer and it become the flesh of Christ.

I pray you study John 6 as a wqhole. and not just one small part of a whole conversation jesus had with the people.

Even if what you state is not so,,,I'd say that if the majority all believe the same doctrine....even IF they believe wrong...
it's on the CC that it does NO TEACHING in individual parishes. This might be the reason why so many are falling away - especially the young.

You're referring to the doctrines we're discussing above.
No. I don't think it's because they started reading the bible and so don't agree with them.
Catholics don't read the bible.

I know many catholics who read the bible. Although they are no longer catholic. and when you ask them why, they said they started to read the bible.. or were talking to people who were showing them the bible and what it says.

They tend to use "common sense".
The host looks the same,,,,it probably remains the same would be the reasoning.
They believe they could confess to God and not through the priest. This is very interesting to me but when I ask them why,,,I don't get a theological reply....the reply is very "human bound".

I have seen this also

Agreed.

You keep saying that the CC is identical to the Jew.
What do you mean by this?
Because they have a priest?

Because the jews thought they were righteous with God based on keeping the law.

The catholics believe they are righteous with God because they keep their laws

There are so many similarites it is actually amazing when you look at it.. They use many of the same arguments even when people talk to them..

Actually, historically speaking, I DO believe the CC is the original church...
IOW, the church that was created by men (Peter, Paul, Timothy, etc) which came directly after Jesus ascension.
It was Ignatius of Antioch that first called it the Catholic Church in 107AD.
He might have meant it in the sense of the universal church,,,but, nonetheless, it did retain that name and he WAS referring to the church to which he belonged at the time.

But the catholic church looks NOTHING like the churches of the NT (actually very few if any denomination churches look anythjing like they did back then) and they certainly do not hold to the same truths as the disciples did.

Catholic (from Greek: καθολικός, romanized: katholikos, lit. 'universal') was first used to describe the church in the early 2nd century.[30] The first known use of the phrase "the catholic church" (Greek: καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία, romanized: katholikḕ ekklēsía) occurred in the letter written about 110 AD from Saint Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans,[note 2] which read: "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church."[31]

In the Catechetical Lectures (c. 350) of Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, the name "Catholic Church" was used to distinguish it from other groups that also called themselves "the church".[31][32] The "Catholic" notion was further stressed in the edict De fide Catolica issued 380 by Theodosius I, the last emperor to rule over both the eastern and the western halves of the Roman Empire, when establishing the state church of the Roman Empire.

source: Catholic Church - Wikipedia


It's just a name EG....just because we may not agree with what it teaches TODAY,,,we can't argue that this is what the original church was called. BTW, Ignatius was taught by John.

Yes. Catholic means universal. So they use that name to prove they are the first church. it is just one of the many excuses I have heard over the years why they are the only true church.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I can!

It's not even that hard at all, in most cases.

Proverbs 24:25 But those who rebuke the wicked will have delight,​

And a good blessing will come upon them.​

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John 7: 24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”​

​

Matthew 7:5 First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.​

​

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.​

​

I Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.​

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I Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? ​

non of those verses are judging a persons eternal life.

You can not know if a person is saved or not

Your not God.

You can judge a persons actions. You can judge a persons gospel or their belief. but you can not judge a persons salvation.

I firmly believe when we get to heaven there will be many no one thought was a believer that will be there. and many we4 would put our lives on the line that they were saved who will not be there.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Piers Plowman ....welcome to the forum, I didn’t think to look at your avatar, which shows you are new.

You are very welcome here, Brother....I enjoy reading your posts. God Bless.

Ps We all imo get heated in discussion at times, it doesn’t mean that you aren’t welcome here...the forum needs you ,as much as anyone else.....

 

[Ritajanice]

You can not know if a person is saved or not

Your not God.


This in mo is so true...only God can see into the heart of his children, we can’t, at one time I would have said, I know who are Born Again....

God showed me sometime down the road...I do not know who is Born Again...

Just my thoughts.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not sure which would be worse!

I have, however, been doing this sort of thing for a very long time and can usually tell when someone is saying something for effect rather than something that they actually believe.

It isn't impossible for me to be wrong but I'd need evidence to retract the accusation.

when it comes to most catholics. I know they truly believe what they say, i do nto believe they are knowingly lieing about their faith. The pharisee who pumped his chest really believed he was ok with God and accused the tax collector.. It is no different.

James not even being an Apostle, interestingly, but that's neither here nor there.

What did I say that would make you think that I either didn't know this or that I would disagree with it? (I mean, I think I know but I don't want to guess and so I'm asking you to be explicit so that there's no confusion.)

You stated the church did not start until Paul was converted.. I disagree

 

[Piers Plowman]

My formal apologies to @GodsGrace and @Eternally Grateful

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This Calvinesque flare has a touch of arrogance: "Come to Me all you totally depraved dirty rags, who do not want to burn, for I will save you from the fire ..."

I think Calvin's acronym ( if it is his) is flawed. It is high minded, presumptuous, cold and simplistic ( as to reduce the sovereignty of God into a cute flowery acronym).

There is a tension between the two realms ( physical and spiritual) and just how things play out are mysterious to us, above our knowledge and mental capacity. So it is with this apparent paradox that we bump up against and take sides.
Forrest Gump got it right. Is our destiny fixed or do we make our own destiny? He said, "Both are going on at the same time." ( That was my all time favorite movie btw.)

God draws all men to Himself but many resist! He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be that way - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?

Totally depraved"? Well man left to himself is, but we aren't are we? GOD is the author of our faith AND He is also working in everyone elses life. I think the condition of man's heart before the Flood was totally depraved. But God's principles have permeated throughout the world since then.
Jesus has changed the world. We have God, some of us do, so why imply the harsh negative, that is not the Gospel way. Sin needs to be addressed.
I just think the acronym is high minded, then implications are beyond what we can know ( God's foreknowledge forninstance). T.U.L.I.P.
God simplified His plan for us by giving us the whole Bible. His foreknowledge is far beyond what we were given. Creating an acronym for God's sovereign plan is foolish and arrogant. It would,/ if possible _ require omniscience.
It's sort of cold too. Calvinists are judgmental, pointing their holy fingers at everyone. I think they are like Ephesus.

There is a tension between the two realms and just how things play out are mysterious to us.
We know in part!
There is this apparent paradox that we bump up against when examing these five points; and so we take sides. Btw, I don't, I am not an Arminian either - don't entertain that dispute.
Forrest Gump got it right. He posed the question, Is our destiny fixed or do we make our own destiny? He said, "Both are going on at the same time." ( That was my all time favorite movie btw.) So, in our perspective, we hope that it's fixed and live like it's not. I used to say the significant things our part of His plan. But every little move is a detail too. If He knows when a sparowbfall to the ground, He is well aware of even the bad oyster you just ate that caused a hospital visit. Mainly the significant events, the forks in the road, the people in your life, the life altering experiences are designed - not so much the small stuff. But our view of the small stuff may amount to a big deal. You want to go for a ride with the guys to the beach, but your Dad tells you you must do your chores and homework! Is that small stuff? Not when the boys that day happen to drink and wrapped the car around a telephone pole and all died. If the following year was God's plan for you to became a Christian, He certainly steered you away from getting in that car. If you are predestined to be saved, God obviously must keep you alive until then, which means everyday He and His angels are watching over you keeping you from a deadly incident. What about those boys who died? Were they Christians, did they have faith?

Unconditional Election? Maybe, but that is in the realm of God's foreknowledge, His omniscience and should be left alone.
From our perspective, God says if you do this, this will happen or I will grant you that. We are supposed to believe that our cooperation is essential to how things turn out - even though we cannot mess up His plan, He still wants us to feel like we have achieved something to get that "Well done good and faithful servant"!
Isn't believing in Christ a condition?

Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith, so that should settle the matter. But still, we are participants, thinking that our choices in life matter. They do, life is filled with them. So how do we sort out God's power and ours?
God desires that all to come to Him --- but not all do.
Wait a minute, God desires something that can't be done ... that He is unable to accomplish??? That must be true. He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?

Limited Atonement? Predestination is true; but why present it as though Jesus sacrificial death was limited, not powerful enough to cover all sin? It is. Limited atonement, is technically _ at the end of time _ true _ (that not all will make it so, the blood will not be applied to all); but this should not be a theme and evangelical tool to hit everyone over the head with as they spread the love of the Gospel.

Irresistible Grace? Wait a minute, for that to work, he had to divide grace into two categories: common grace and effectual grace. What? Grace is grace, it is God's unmerited favor. It is offered to all but some resist it.
Romans 1 says, " man is without excuse". If some were predestined to die ( made for dishonor - which I believe), then that would be their excuse, "You made me this way, how could I do otherwise"? See the paradox, the tension.
Jesus said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing” Matthew 23:37-39.
They resisted His Grace over and over again.

Perseverance of the Saints? Now, here we have something positive, a real actual scripture quote. (Phil.1:6 & 2:13) It is a fact, those who are born again will do the Lord's work and persevere til the end.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's rather judgmental of you!

Keep up the good work!

I just judged his words. Not him.

Huge difference then saying a person is not saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I mean, I could leave right now, if I am not welcome here. I have no issue with that.
No, really, I have no emotion in regards to that. If it means peace for all involved.

just try not to act like you know it all. and before you judge, take the log out of your eye.

Everyone is welcome here.. But humble people are prefered. if we can not own up to our mistakes.. then we have some rather big issues we need to talk to God about

 

[Eternally Grateful]

My formal apologies to @GodsGrace and @Eternally Grateful

thank you..

And welcome

 

[Logikos]

non of those verses are judging a persons eternal life.

Of course they are.

You can not know if a person is saved or not

Quite easily, in most cases.

Your not God.

But I do have the mind of Christ!

You can judge a persons actions. You can judge a persons gospel or their belief. but you can not judge a persons salvation.

Same exact thing.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

I firmly believe when we get to heaven there will be many no one thought was a believer that will be there. and many we4 would put our lives on the line that they were saved who will not be there.

I am not suggesting otherwise nor am I suggesting that an ability to discern whether someone is saved or not is the final answer to such a question. We can make mistakes of judgment but that is no reason to abdicate the responsibility of doing so. It just means that we have to take it seriously and with a measure of humility.

Indeed, my main point with challenging you on this has to do with your unbiblical stance. Some people are better suited to certain things than others. If you don't feel qualified to judge whether Hillary Clinton is saved or unsaved then you should probably refrain from doing so but the point here is that such a lack of discernment cannot rightly be laid off onto some biblical injunction against judging people because no such injunction exists.

More than that, it doesn't even make any sense. How are people supposed to witness to unbelievers if we aren't allowed to determine who is and who isn't an unbeliever? Which makes more sense, street witnessing on Venice Beach on a Friday evening or doing so on the sidewalk in front of the First Baptist Church of Denver on Sunday mornings? By your logic, you'd have to be God to make such a distinction, which just means that you haven't thought it through. Someone, somewhere taught you that it's wrong to judge (which is a very hypocritically judgmental thing to say, by the way). They did so in error. I recommend rethinking it because it's a rule that you cannot follow.

 

[Logikos]

I just judged his words. Not him.

Huge difference then saying a person is not saved.

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.