Blind Guides and Deluded Followers

[Ronald Nolette]

Why do you try to separate the ones Jesus brought together as one through His blood?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

I do not seperate.

The OT saints are not part of the church. They are saved but of a different dispensation.

Israel is called the wife of Jehovah while the church is the espoused to Jesus. Tribulation saints are also different from the church as well. All these distinctions are there only for the millenial kingdom and what happens in eternity is unknown.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do not seperate.

Yes, you do. You don't have all who are in Christ together as one body.

The OT saints are not part of the church. They are saved but of a different dispensation.

That is false. They are saved by the blood of Christ just as NT saints are. There is salvation by no other name and no other way (Acts 4:12, John 14:6). Was Abraham not an OT saint? Of course he was. Scripture teaches this:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice it says if we belong to Christ then we are Abraham's seed (spiritually). How can we be Abraham's seed without Abraham being part of the church? That's nonsense. Not only is there "neither Jew nor Greek...bond nor free...male nor female", but also there is neither OT saint nor NT saint in God's eyes. All are one in Christ Jesus by faith like Abraham had.

Israel is called the wife of Jehovah while the church is the espoused to Jesus. Tribulation saints are also different from the church as well. All these distinctions are there only for the millenial kingdom and what happens in eternity is unknown.

This is completely unbiblical. What Jesus has brought together (all of God's people from all-time), let man not separate.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

One definition of projection..... 'the unconscious transfer of one's desires or emotions to another person'

Why doesn't the other person refuse to accept their delusions?

If they knew the Lord, they would.

 

[quietthinker]

Why doesn't the other person refuse to accept their delusions?

If they knew the Lord, they would.

The phenomena of projection is independent of the person being projected on. For example, we (men) want justice which in real terms means revenge. When we read of God's justice we assume God means revenge. That is our projection onto God.
God's justice is liberation which is quiet different to payback.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, you do. You don't have all who are in Christ together as one body.


That is false. They are saved by the blood of Christ just as NT saints are. There is salvation by no other name and no other way (Acts 4:12, John 14:6). Was Abraham not an OT saint? Of course he was. Scripture teaches this:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice it says if we belong to Christ then we are Abraham's seed (spiritually). How can we be Abraham's seed without Abraham being part of the church? That's nonsense. Not only is there "neither Jew nor Greek...bond nor free...male nor female", but also there is neither OT saint nor NT saint in God's eyes. All are one in Christ Jesus by faith like Abraham had.


This is completely unbiblical. What Jesus has brought together (all of God's people from all-time), let man not separate.

No I do not. The church began at Pentecpost so all who were saced before that are not part of the church.

Yes the blood of Jesus is the thing that saves all but OT saints did not trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus to save them.

We are Abrahams seed by faith, but Abraham is ot part of the church.

The church is the bride of Christ and even John the Baptist recognized He was not part of the bride. He called himself the friend of the bridegroom.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

God's justice is liberation which is quiet different to payback.

Hebrews 10:30
For we know the One having said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge His people"

Those that sow to the flesh will in fact receive corruption not liberation.

One must turn from their sin and abide IN Christ in order to received liberation

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you try to separate the ones Jesus brought together as one through His blood?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

You don't even allow them to be one group physically enjoying all physical Paradise has to offer where there are no nations nor divisions in that place prepared for Adam's offspring that no one got to enjoy, because Adam was banned from that Garden.

They are all up there in that heavenly city and country, called Paradise, 3 times in the NT. They have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple for 1994 years.

You don't even allow them to have physical bodies except somehow they have on white garments and waiving palm branches.

Since you don't seem to care about the chronological order of Revelation, it is ironic that you don't even allow them to have God's permanent incorruptible physical body, provided by God, and not human genetics, per 2 Corinthians 5:1.

You must think they are dead, and only symbolically in their minds they think they are alive?

While Paul is describing the spiritual makeup of those alive on the earth, there are billions in Paradise already physically enjoying life, without any distinction other than they used to be from every tribe and nation on earth, but are now, one single family of Adam's redeemed offspring.

But you claim a third of their being is still dead and buried in the dust.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No I do not. The church began at Pentecpost so all who were saced before that are not part of the church.

Nonsense. The blood of Christ was retroactively applied to OT saints who looked forward to His day like Abraham. There is no other name by which someone can be saved! (Acts 4:12) and all saved people are part of the church.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Your beliefs are not based on what scripture teaches.

Yes the blood of Jesus is the thing that saves all but OT saints did not trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus to save them.

They looked forward to His coming. They belong to Him every bit as much as we do. Moses and Elijah appeared with Him at His transfiguration and He talked to them. Do you think He told them "Sorry that you're not part of my church, but I'll let you talk to me, anyway."?

We are Abrahams seed by faith, but Abraham is ot part of the church.

Yes, he most certainly is. He belongs to Christ every bit as much as we do. You are sadly mistaken.

The church is the bride of Christ and even John the Baptist recognized He was not part of the bride. He called himself the friend of the bridegroom.

We're all friends of the bridegroom, but that doesn't mean we aren't also the bride. Again, you are sadly mistaken.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Jesus was talking to the disciples here. Are you going to try to claim they are not part of the bride because they are friends of the bridegroom?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nonsense. The blood of Christ was retroactively applied to OT saints who looked forward to His day like Abraham. There is no other name by which someone can be saved! (Acts 4:12) and all saved people are part of the church.

If that is true then Jesus was very confused!

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If the church has existed since the time of Adam and his children then Jesus would have said somthing similar to this:

I will keep building, or I have been building, or I will continue to build.

But He said I will build (future tense) my church. who should we believe Jesus or others?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If that is true then Jesus was very confused!

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If the church has existed since the time of Adam and his children then Jesus would have said somthing similar to this:

I will keep building, or I have been building, or I will continue to build.

But He said I will build (future tense) my church. who should we believe Jesus or others?

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that Jesus brought the OT saints into His church by way of His death and resurrection. Do you believe that OT saints are saved any other way except through faith and the blood of Christ? If so, you are sadly mistaken. Scripture doesn't teach that there's ever been any other way to be saved. So, His blood applies retroactively to OT saints like Abraham who looked forward to His coming. They are in His church with us because His death and resurrection brought them into the church. Scripture says there is one body, not two. We (believers from all-time) are one in Christ Jesus because there is no other name by which anyone could ever be saved and He is the only way to be saved (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that Jesus brought the OT saints into His church by way of His death and resurrection. Do you believe that OT saints are saved any other way except through faith and the blood of Christ? If so, you are sadly mistaken. Scripture doesn't teach that there's ever been any other way to be saved. So, His blood applies retroactively to OT saints like Abraham who looked forward to His coming. They are in His church with us because His death and resurrection brought them into the church. Scripture says there is one body, not two. We (believers from all-time) are one in Christ Jesus because there is no other name by which anyone could ever be saved and He is the only way to be saved (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).

No! No one is saved apart from the blood of Jesus. The OT saints knew nothing of this nor who the Messiah would be. they did not think of themselves as part of the church. John the Baptist even confirmed that as well as Jesus!

Jesus said He would (future) build HIs church. It started at Pentecost.

OT saints are saved but are not part of the bride of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No! No one is saved apart from the blood of Jesus.

So, think about it. OT saints are saved by the blood of Jesus then, right? How can they be saved by the blood of Jesus, but not be in His church? That makes no sense whatsoever.

The OT saints knew nothing of this nor who the Messiah would be

They knew a Redeemer and Deliverer was coming to save them. They may not have known who or exactly how, but they believed in a coming Messiah who would save them.

. they did not think of themselves as part of the church.

It doesn't matter what they thought, Jesus brought them into His church because all who belong to Him are one, as scripture teaches repeatedly.

John the Baptist even confirmed that as well as Jesus!

Where? Show me what you're talking about.

Jesus said He would (future) build HIs church. It started at Pentecost.

OT saints are saved but are not part of the bride of Christ.

Nonsense. Scripture teaches no such thing. All who belong to Christ, which includes OT saints, are part of the bride of Christ. Why wouldn't they be? They belong to Him just as much as we do. It's absolute nonsense to divide believers up into different groups. There is one body!

 

[covenantee]

Nonsense. Scripture teaches no such thing. All who belong to Christ, which includes OT saints, are part of the bride of Christ. Why wouldn't they be? They belong to Him just as much as we do. It's absolute nonsense to divide believers up into different groups. There is one body!

It represents the dispensational attempt to rationalize what in essence is dispensationalism's polygamous God: Israel, including OT Israel, is the wife of Jehovah, while the NT Church is the Bride of Christ.

Thanks for the Scriptural rebuttal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, think about it. OT saints are saved by the blood of Jesus then, right? How can they be saved by the blood of Jesus, but not be in His church? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Because teh church did ot begin until Pentecost. OT saints were never baptized in teh spirit. That began at Pentecost! It dfoesn't have pot make human sense, it just has to make biblical sense which it does.

Remember Jesus told Peter " I will build my church(future)" not I have been building my church, which would have been teh answer if the church began as you said it did.

They knew a Redeemer and Deliverer was coming to save them. They may not have known who or exactly how, but they believed in a coming Messiah who would save them.

Yes they did, but that did not make them part of the church. Being bapitzed in the spirit makes one part of the church as Paul declared in Corinthians.

It doesn't matter what they thought, Jesus brought them into His church because all who belong to Him are one, as scripture teaches repeatedly.

OT Israel was the wife of Jehovah while the church is the espoused to Jesus, you can't be a wife and fiance' at the same time

Where? Show me what you're talking about.

.
John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Nonsense. Scripture teaches no such thing. All who belong to Christ, which includes OT saints, are part of the bride of Christ. Why wouldn't they be? They belong to Him just as much as we do. It's absolute nonsense to divide believers up into different groups. There is one body!

Since Pentecost yes! But before Pentecost they are saved but a different group. Even REv. 19 teaches that.

Revelation 19

King James Version

​

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

These distinctions are during the millenial kingdom. How eternity plays out we do not know. Even Jesus taught that:

Matthew 22

King James Version

​

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

 

[quietthinker]

Because teh church did ot begin until Pentecost. OT saints were never baptized in teh spirit. That began at Pentecost! It dfoesn't have pot make human sense, it just has to make biblical sense which it does.

Remember Jesus told Peter " I will build my church(future)" not I have been building my church, which would have been teh answer if the church began as you said it did.

Yes they did, but that did not make them part of the church. Being bapitzed in the spirit makes one part of the church as Paul declared in Corinthians.

OT Israel was the wife of Jehovah while the church is the espoused to Jesus, you can't be a wife and fiance' at the same time


.
John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Since Pentecost yes! But before Pentecost they are saved but a different group. Even REv. 19 teaches that.

Revelation 19​

​

King James Version​

​

​

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

These distinctions are during the millenial kingdom. How eternity plays out we do not know. Even Jesus taught that:

Matthew 22​

​

King James Version​

​

​

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

All in Adam....all in Christ.
In Adam humanity dies.....In Christ humanity lives.....past, present and future
Death as a result of Adam's sin is no fault of our own; we have no choice....plants die, babies die, we die.
Life in Jesus is a gift given to all......now we can choose. Death becomes a deliberate choice. With whom do we side?

The Good News is alerting people to what they have in Jesus. Oh, wonder of wonders! Will we make light of it? Will we disregard it as it being a fantasy? Will we make excuses? Will we substitute our theories/ our way? or will we with gratitude embrace it and sing, 'nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling'?

 

[covenantee]

There it is.

"OT Israel was the wife of Jehovah while the church is the espoused to Jesus, you can't be a wife and fiance' at the same time"

View attachment 46154

Yeah.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All in Adam....all in Christ.
In Adam humanity dies.....In Christ humanity lives.....past, present and future
Death as a result of Adam's sin is no fault of our own; we have no choice....plants die, babies die, we die.
Life in Jesus is a gift given to all......now we can choose. Death becomes a deliberate choice. With whom do we side?

The Good News is alerting people to what they have in Jesus. Oh, wonder of wonders! Will we make light of it? Will we disregard it as it being a fantasy? Will we make excuses? Will we substitute our theories/ our way? or will we with gratitude embrace it and sing, 'nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling'?

Yes in Christ all are made alive, but not all are the bride of Christ or the church.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

View attachment 46154

Yes you pounding your head against bible truth is tiring.

 

[Keraz]

1 Timothy 1:7 especially applies on this Forum.

Truths of the Final Age:

2 Timothy 3:1-17 Remember, the final age of this world is to be a time of turmoil! People will love nothing but self and money, they will be boastful, arrogant and abusive. Disobedient to parents, devoid of gratitude, piety and natural affection. They will be uncontrolled in their violence, hating all goodness, perfidious, foolhardy and self important. They will love their pleasures more than their God. While preserving the outward form of religion, actually, they deny its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Persecution will indeed come to everyone who wants to lead a godly life as a follower of Christ Jesus, while evil doers and imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But for your part, stand by the truths you have learned and are assured of, because you are familiar with the Holy scriptures which have the power to make you wise and lead you into salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

All inspired scripture has its use for teaching the truth, refuting error and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be capable and equipped for good works of every kind.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 Before God and before Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, I charge you solemnly by His coming appearing and Millennial reign – to proclaim the gospel, press it home, in season and out of season, use argument, reproof and encouragement with all the patience that teaching requires.

For the time will come when people will not stand sound teaching, but each will follow his own ideas and will gather crowds to hear whatever they fancy. They will stop their ears to the truth and turn aside to myths.

But, you must keep your head whatever happens; put up with hardship, work to spread the gospel and discharge all the duties of your calling.

1 Timothy 1:3-11 I asked you, Timothy, to instruct certain people to refrain from teaching erroneous doctrines and devoting themselves to interminable myths and fruitless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculations that do nothing to further God’s plan for humans, that works through faith in Him. The goal of this Command is love, which comes from a pure heart, a good conscience and a genuine faith. Through a lack of these attributes, some have gone astray into a plethora of theories and false notions. They set out to be teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or the true meaning of the Word.

We all know the Law is a good thing, if it is used properly, it’s there not just for the righteous, but is necessary for the lawless and sinful, the godless and worldly, the murderers and fornicators, perverts, liars, perjurers, in fact all whose behaviour flouts the glorious Gospel of God.


The end of this era, will be a time of turmoil, Paul may be referring to the Tribulation period, but we have for the last 100 years experienced many wars and disasters. Matt. 24:6-8

Persecution will come to everyone who follows Jesus, Hebrews 12:8 This totally refutes any ‘pre-trib/wrath rapture to heaven’. 1 Peter 4:12 However, the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety during the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

While preserving the outward form of religion, they deny its power. Many, so called Christian Churches have deviated so far from the true Gospel, they are no longer a Church of God. Isaiah 58, Jude 1-25, Revelation 3:14-22

The time has come when people refuse sound teaching, they believe false theories, ignore, allegorise or place Bible prophecy into past history, so have no proper understanding of what will happen soon. Isaiah:29:13-14, Isaiah 30:8-11

False teachers are more prevalent than ever, promoting their erroneous doctrines. Ministries, TV shows, books, etc, on the end times are a big business. Their judgement comes, false teachers will all meet their end on the Day of wrath. Jer.14:13-16, Isaiah 56:9-12