Biblical Mary

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Mungo

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The woman in Rev 12 is not either/or but both/and

In Rev 12:1 we read “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars”

Who is this woman? Three different suggestions are proposed; Mary, symbolic of Israel, symbolic of the Church. It is possible that she represents all three. Such “fusion imagery” is common in the Bible, especially in apocalyptic literature.

For example in Rev 4:6-8 the four beasts around the throne are a fusion of the elements of the cherubim in Ezekial 10:1-14 and the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:1-6.
Like the cherubim in Ezekial they have faces of a man, an ox, a lion and an eagle, like the Seraphim they had six wings.

The elders around the throne are 24 (Rev 4:4) because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

Polyvalent symbolism is also a feature of Revelation. For example the seven heads of the beast in Rev 17:3 represent seven hills and also seven kings (Rev 17:9)

It would not be surprising therefore if the woman in Rev 12 is a fusion and/or polyvalent symbolism with elements of Israel and the Church present.
Yes, she can represent Israel, Yes, she can represent the Church.

Primarily though the woman must be Mary, the mother of Jesus
.
The woman is identified as giving birth to a son, “a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod”– reference to Psalm 2:9 & Rev 11:15. Moreover “Her child was caught up to God and his throne” so the child is clearly Jesus.
However to understand what is going on in Rev 12 we need to go back to the first three chapters of Genesis. In the Garden of Eden the man and the woman are given dominion over the earth (Gen 1:28). They are effectively the king and queen of the earth. God’s plan is that eventually they will become the king and queen of heaven, raised above the angels.

Man’s destiny is to share in the divine nature of God
…. he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature”. (2Pet 1: 4). Thus mankind will be superior to the angels whom we will judge (1Cor 6:3)

However Satan corrupted them and turned them from God. He gained some dominion from them for himself (Lk 3:5-7) and became the ruler of this world (Jn 12:31; 14:30; 16:11).

Why did Satan do that? I think the answer lies in Rev 12.

Genesis does not tell us anything about the creation of the angel but we know that it was before man because Satan tempted Adam in the garden. It is also reasonable to presume to God gave the angels some test, just as he tested Adam, and some angels failed the test. For we read:
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment; (2Pet 2:4).

In Is14:12-15 we read of the fall of Satan….
 
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Mungo

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To my understanding, Betrothed is intent to marry, while being Espoused, is more of a planned celebration, an "event" so to speak where the "written promise" to marry is revealed.
My understanding that in Judaism marriage was in two stages.

The Talmudic website (www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm) has much information on Jewish marriage customs. Under the section titled, "The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nusuin," the Rabbi explains Mary and Joseph's 2-part Jewish marriage ceremony thus, "The process of marriage occurs in two distinct stages: kiddushin (commonly translated as betrothal) and nusuin. Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce."

Since Mary and Joseph had completed kiddushin, by Jewish law they were married before the Incarnation — truly married as the Rabbi said. Note that the Jewish ceremony does not require that Mary and Joseph live together immediately after they become husband and wife!
 
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Taken

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Since Mary and Joseph had completed kiddushin, by Jewish law they were married before the Incarnation — truly married as the Rabbi said. Note that the Jewish ceremony does not require that Mary and Joseph live together immediately after they become husband and wife!

Never doubted they married,
they lived together.
 

Paul Christensen

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So you are saying that John's vision of Mary in Rev. 12 expressed in goddess imagery is an act of idolatry.
Was his vision that of Mary as the whore of Babylon? I don't think that Mary's name was mentioned. It seems that some have speculated that the whore of Babylon is Mary, but I doubt that John saw it that way. The record certainly does not say that John revered or worshiped the woman in any way. He was just reporting her as part of the vision he saw.
 

BreadOfLife

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Spiritual understanding;
The woman, she, her, country, nation; Israel

Earthly Carnal mindedness;
Human woman.
The Woman of Rev. 12 is BOTH Mary AND Israel, in a lesser sense.
This is what is known as polyvalent symbolism - which is more than one symbol.

- The Woman is the ONLY person in ALL of Revelation who has a body - from head-to-toe.
- She gives birth to the "one who will rule ALL nations with an iron rod" (Jesus).
- Because the Dragon (Herod) seeks to kill the child - she flees into the desert to a place prepared for her by God (Egypt)., where she stays for about 3-1/2 years.
- The crown of Twelve Stars on hear head symbolizes the Twelve Tribes of Israel as well as the Twelve Apostles, whose names are written on the 12 foundations of the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Really NOT that difficult to see . . .
 
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Berserk

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Ronald Nolette: "This is incorrect. John was not well verses in pagan symbology or with the machinations of pagan deities. He was very familiar with the wwritten history of a dream had by Joseph which shows this same woman who represents the nation of Israel.

You pontificate from ignorance. John wrote from Asia Minor where the myth of the birth of Apollo was well known. The parallels between this myth and Rev. 12 are so many and so striking that there is no question that this forms the background. Of course, you overlook the fact that the exalted Woman in the vision gives birth to Jesus!


Ronald Nolette: "There is no record of Mary being pursued by armies ( a flood when used symbolically here and elsewhere is a military campaign) We have no historic record of Mary being subjected to intense persecution on a unique level."

Try reading Matthew's birth narrative. Herod's soldiers invade Bethlehem and kill boys under age 2, forcing Mary and Joseph to escape to Egypt.
Herod's palace looms large in the background as you stand in the shepherds' fields overlooking Bethlehem. Flooding is just an image for persecution and may refer to the Jewish rebels violent invasion of Pella, where the Jerusalem church was during the Jewish revolt.

Ronald Nolette: "But Israel flees into teh wilderness, in th emountains to place known as Bozrah/Petra.

The closer parallel is the flight of the Jerusalem church and its leaders to the wilderness region of transjordanian Pella in the 60s AD. After the Roman desctruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, some of these refugees returned to Jerusalem to try to rebuild.
 

amigo de christo

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are you a disciple?
Go ye out and make desciples of men .
Those who belong to the glorious King are His desciples . And they will not heed the voice of a stranger .
Its why i keep trying to help you by pointing you to the biblical JESUS . You are prayed for my friend .
 

Berserk

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This objective BBC video documents the visions of the Virgin Mary at Medjugorje to 6 peasant children beginning in 1980 and continuing for several years:


She appears dressed like the Woman in Rev. 12, complete with starry crown. Millions had visited Medjugorje to experience the Catholic revival there that is reminiscent of great evangelical revivals like the Welsh and Hebrides revivals. I was particularly moved by how a skeptical Father Jozo was called in an audible voice to protect the visionary children from the Communist police, even though at first he was a skeptic. He was imprisoned for his faith risks. The documentary contains a moving testimony of one of the many miraculous healings that occur there.

I showed this video to about 70 mostly Protestant students in my college course, The Nature of Religious Experience, and they seemed mesmerized. One behavior psychology professor, an apparent hard-boiled skeptic, actually went to Medjugorje and was blown away by the power of his spiritual experience there. A local lawyer from my town went there and actually saw visions too!

It is the utter lack of intellectual and spiritual curiosity and the resulting bias of my evangelical brethren onsite that prompts me to defend Catholicism the way I do here. I hope at least some of you are open-minded enough to watch this potentially life-changing documentary from 1986. Of course, many millions more have visited Medjugorje since this documentary was made.
 
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Brakelite

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This objective BBC video documents the visions of the Virgin Mary at Medjugorje to 6 peasant children beginning in 1980 and continuing for several years:


She appears dressed like the Woman in Rev. 12, complete with starry crown. Millions had visited Medjugorje to experience the Catholic revival there that is reminiscent of great evangelical revivals like the Welsh and Hebrides revivals. I was particularly moved by how a skeptical Father Jozo was called in an audible voice to protect the visionary children from the Communist police, even though at first he was a skeptic. He was imprisoned for his faith risks. The documentary contains a moving testimony of one of the many miraculous healings that occur there.

I showed this video to about 70 mostly Protestant students in my college course, The Nature of Religious Experience, and they seemed mesmerized. One behavior psychology professor, an apparent hard-boiled skeptic, actually went to Medjugorje and was blown away by the power of his spiritual experience there. A local lawyer from my town went there and actually saw visions too!

It is the utter lack of intellectual and spiritual curiosity and the resulting bias of my evangelical brethren onsite that prompts me to defend Catholicism the way I do here. I hope at least some of you are open-minded enough to watch this potentially life-changing documentary from 1986. Of course, many millions more have visited Medjugorje since this documentary was made.
And not one suggestion, either in the messages of the vision, or your post above, that any of it brought anyone closer to Jesus. All the visions and mystical experiences in the world are as useless as trash of they don't bring anyone to Christ.
 

Webers_Home

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.
Don't stop me now
I'm having such a good time
I'm having a ball

Don't stop me now
If you wanna have a good time
Just give me a call

Don't stop me now
'Cause I'm having a good time

Don't stop me now
Yes, I'm having a good time
I don't wanna stop at all, yeah

QUEEN 1978
_
 
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theefaith

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Go ye out and make desciples of men .
Those who belong to the glorious King are His desciples . And they will not heed the voice of a stranger .
Its why i keep trying to help you by pointing you to the biblical JESUS . You are prayed for my friend .

to his disciples he says “behold thy mother”!
 

Ronald Nolette

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the child a Jesus his mother is Mary
Satan makes war on Mary the mother of divine grace not israel, israel and Satan were united in killing Christ
Gen 3:15 is also Mary
Eve Cooperated with Satan To cos the fall as Mary Cooperated to bring our salvation


Wrong Wrong Wrong!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Interesting. Many people own a Bible. Many people can read. Few people read the Bible.
My spouse' g-mother, was devout, (never missed mass) French Catholic. Married a catholic, had a baby, divorced her husband and told the child at 4 yr's old, his dad was dead. At age 15, the child's uncle (dad's brother) looked up the child, to inquire if the child wanted to go to his dads funeral, (out of state) that his uncle was going and could take the boy with him! The explaination to the boy was...you're dad was a bad catholic, never went to mass, we are good catholics, we always go to mass. So off to mass every week they would go. I asked her to tell me about her church. She described the statues, the pews, the stained glass, artwork, the rituals, and the beautiful sound of the singing and the Priest giving the sermon in Latin. I asked if she spoke Latin, she said no!
She had a Bible she showed me with pride, a well worn cover that she carried to mass since a teen...yet the pages looked as if brand new. A total facade.

It is sad. A church with much of the truth in it, but so steeped in heretical doctrines that teh truth can easily get ddrowned out for many. I know there are untold numbers of saved Catholics, but because of the heavy burden laded on them by Romanism they do not even realize they have been redeemed.
 
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Webers_Home

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Matt 12:47-50 . . Then one said unto him: Behold, thy mother and thy
brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and
said unto him that told him: Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

. . . And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said: Behold
my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father
which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

That is a very good passage for use in explaining the one below:

John 19:26-27 . . When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple
standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother: Woman, behold thy
son!

. . .Then saith he to the disciple: Behold thy mother! And from that hour
that disciple took her unto his own home.

» Note that the word "disciple" is singular in John's passage indicating that
Jesus spoke to only one rather than all.

Now the thing is: Jesus assigned Mary and John together as an adoptive
family; and if I read the passage correctly, Jesus' intent was that John take
Mary under his wing rather than she taking John under hers. In other words:
the burden of care was upon John rather than the other way around.

If John 19:26-27 were to apply to all of Jesus' disciples rather than only
John, then every Christian, from first to last, young and old, would be
responsible for Mary as their dependant kin.

1Tim 5:8 . . If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for
his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.

But of course Jesus' mother is in a better place now and no longer needs a
family to take care of her.


NOTE: If Jesus' mom was 18 when she bore him, and Jesus was executed at
33, then she would've been 51 at the time of the event.
_
 

theefaith

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It is sad. A church with much of the truth in it, but so steeped in heretical doctrines that teh truth can easily get ddrowned out for many. I know there are untold numbers of saved Catholics, but because of the heavy burden laded on them by Romanism they do not even realize they have been redeemed.

how can anyone be saved in this life?
Matt 24:13