Barna Poll: Most Americans - Including Church Members - Reject the Trinity

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Matthias

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From my X / Twitter “For you” feed today.


Let me say at the outset that my intention with this thread is to discuss education. This thread was not created to discuss or debate the Trinity.

I’ve been complaining for decades that the subject isn’t being taught in churches; not from the pulpit, not in Sunday School classrooms, and not in Bible studies. It should be.

From the article:

”Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox churches are trinitarian, teaching that the God of the Bible is one inseparable and unified deity comprised of three persons. Two out of three Americans claim to be Christian, leading to the expectation that they embrace the core teachings of their chosen faith.

Yet, a new research report from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University shows that only 11% of American adults, and only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians, believe in the trinity.

Weak Foundations

The trinity is one of the central theological foundations of Christian churches. However, that teach is widely misunderstood, often rejected, and rarely acted upon by Americans. The unfamiliarity or negligible acceptance of the trinity among self-described Christian adults raises serious ministry challenges for churches and families, in addition to creating practical dilemmas for the nation. …

’It could be argued that the primary theologians influencing the spiritual views of America these days are figures such as Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, Megyn Kelly, and Bill Maher,‘ Barna noted. ‘They mix practical and sometimes unbiblical theology and philosophical points of view into their commentary on life and world events. Meanwhile, many Christian churches are focused on delivering multi-part series that are not effectively developing or bolstering an integrated, biblical worldview that congregants can rely upon to counteract popular, secular takes on reality.’

‘We know from our national worldview tracking studies that most Americans are uninformed about the many essential biblical teachings, ranging from the Ten Commandments and the trinity, to matters related to repentance, salvation, the chief purpose of life, and divine measure of success,’ Barna noted.

’These findings about America‘s ignorance or rejection of the trinity are simply another in a long list of examples of people living without the truths and life principles of God shaping their life,’ he continued.

’These results are further evidence of the limited or lack of trust Americans have in the Bible, the limitations we place on the authority and influence on God, and our refusal to cooperate with God by living in harmony with His ways and purposes,’ Barna explained. ‘Even the statistics for the groups that are most in-tune with biblical teachings, such as belief in the nature and impact of the trinity, are shockingly low for a nation in which most people claim to be Christian.’ …”


I didn’t need the poll to tell me this. I learned it when I was a Bible college student. I observed it in the classroom as an adjunct college professor teaching in the field of Christian education, through visiting services at various churches, on the street and in discussion with people on internet discussion forums who self-identify as Christian.

I lay this appalling situation squarely at the feet of the clergy, but that doesn’t excuse those who aren’t in the clergy from the obligation of obtaining proper instruction for themselves.

I‘m renewing my call here, in this thread, for education to be provided in churches and in homes on historical orthodox trinitarianism. My hope is that others - trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike - will support this effort.
 

Matthias

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People who do an unbiased study of the Trinity usually realize that a man cannot be God.

Trinity is full of contradictions. I love that people are rejecting it.

Welcome to the forum.

I see that you are registered “Agnostic”.

I understand your position but your comment is the very thing that I wanted to avoid in this thread. Now a zealous trinitarian will be chomping at the bit to respond to it and, if one does (I’m hoping the trinitarians will exercise restraint), this thread will quickly go off-topic. If that happens, I’ll request that the thread be closed.
 

Wick Stick

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From my X / Twitter “For you” feed today.


Let me say at the outset that my intention with this thread is to discuss education. This thread was not created to discuss or debate the Trinity.

I’ve been complaining for decades that the subject isn’t being taught in churches; not from the pulpit, not in Sunday School classrooms, and not in Bible studies. It should be.

From the article:

”Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox churches are trinitarian, teaching that the God of the Bible is one inseparable and unified deity comprised of three persons. Two out of three Americans claim to be Christian, leading to the expectation that they embrace the core teachings of their chosen faith.

Yet, a new research report from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University shows that only 11% of American adults, and only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians, believe in the trinity.

Weak Foundations

The trinity is one of the central theological foundations of Christian churches. However, that teach is widely misunderstood, often rejected, and rarely acted upon by Americans. The unfamiliarity or negligible acceptance of the trinity among self-described Christian adults raises serious ministry challenges for churches and families, in addition to creating practical dilemmas for the nation. …

’It could be argued that the primary theologians influencing the spiritual views of America these days are figures such as Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, Megyn Kelly, and Bill Maher,‘ Barna noted. ‘They mix practical and sometimes unbiblical theology and philosophical points of view into their commentary on life and world events. Meanwhile, many Christian churches are focused on delivering multi-part series that are not effectively developing or bolstering an integrated, biblical worldview that congregants can rely upon to counteract popular, secular takes on reality.’

‘We know from our national worldview tracking studies that most Americans are uninformed about the many essential biblical teachings, ranging from the Ten Commandments and the trinity, to matters related to repentance, salvation, the chief purpose of life, and divine measure of success,’ Barna noted.

’These findings about America‘s ignorance or rejection of the trinity are simply another in a long list of examples of people living without the truths and life principles of God shaping their life,’ he continued.

’These results are further evidence of the limited or lack of trust Americans have in the Bible, the limitations we place on the authority and influence on God, and our refusal to cooperate with God by living in harmony with His ways and purposes,’ Barna explained. ‘Even the statistics for the groups that are most in-tune with biblical teachings, such as belief in the nature and impact of the trinity, are shockingly low for a nation in which most people claim to be Christian.’ …”


I didn’t need the poll to tell me this. I learned it when I was a Bible college student. I observed it in the classroom as an adjunct college professor teaching in the field of Christian education, through visiting services at various churches, on the street and in discussion with people on internet discussion forums who self-identify as Christian.

I lay this appalling situation squarely at the feet of the clergy, but that doesn’t excuse those who aren’t in the clergy from the obligation of obtaining proper instruction for themselves.

I‘m renewing my call here, in this thread, for education to be provided in churches and in homes on historical orthodox trinitarianism. My hope is that others - trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike - will support this effort.
What exactly do you want to be taught? You say 'historical orthodox trinitarianism' as if the doctrine of the trinity was well-agreed on in the past. It wasn't. It's been a point of disagreement and contention basically always.

The capital-O Orthodox position is perhaps the best - that it's a mystery to be received on faith, and perhaps not meant to be understood.
 
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Matthias

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What exactly do you want to be taught?

Nicaea (325), Constantinople (381), Chalcedon (451).

You say 'historical orthodox trinitarianism' as if the doctrine of the trinity was well-agreed on in the past. It wasn't.

Those who dissented were expelled from the church. The value of your comment to me is that it reflects what the poll is telling us.

It's been a point of disagreement and contention basically always.

The capital-O Orthodox position is perhaps the best - that it's a mystery to be received on faith, and perhaps not meant to be understood.
 

Wick Stick

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Nicaea (325), Constantinople (381), Chalcedon (451).
Are you going to include in your studies the controversies that led to the synods?
Those who dissented were expelled from the church.
I do not believe that popes (or emperors) have a legitimate power of excommunication.

At any rate, there are a dozen or more Orthodox churches that continue existing to this day, despite having been excommunicated some thousand years ago. It would seem the expulsion didn't "take."
The value of your comment to me is that it reflects what the poll is telling us.
I'm not really a typical Christian. Probably most people who are logging onto forums such as this one, aren't.

I have studied the trinity, and the creeds, and a bunch of church history. I don't reject the creeds outright, but I find the language in them is too rigid and influenced too much by Greek philosophy.
 

Matthias

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Are you going to include in your studies the controversies that led to the synods?

That should be done. It’s all a part of church history.

I do not believe that popes (or emperors) have a legitimate power of excommunication.

The topic of this thread is educating people about the Trinity.

At any rate, there are a dozen or more Orthodox churches that continue existing to this day, despite having been excommunicated some thousand years ago. It would seem the expulsion didn't "take."

I'm not really a typical Christian. Probably most people who are logging onto forums such as this one, aren't.

The typical American / American Christian doesn’t know what the Catholic, Protestant and Eastern Orthodox churches say about the Trinity. It isn’t being taught to them in the churches. They‘re making a decision to reject the Trinity without having sufficient information to intelligently make that decision.

I have studied the trinity, and the creeds, and a bunch of church history. I don't reject the creeds outright, but I find the language in them is too rigid and influenced too much by Greek philosophy.

This thread is calling for people to do what you’ve done - become equipped with the knowledge - so that they can make an informed decision.

I was speaking with someone very recently - today, in fact - who self-identifies as Christian. This person told me the following -

“So believe that Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit is God …

And, the Father? Yes? Is God!

Good! You are a Trinitarian.”

The problem with that - which should be obvious but wasn’t to that person - is that those propositions are all affirmed and asserted by the largest branch of unitarianism. The person isn’t knowledgable of church history and hasn’t been properly instructed about the Trinity. Churches are filled with people like that.

This is a slightly different from the poll, which tells us the majority of Americans reject the Trinity.

If I tell you that I believe in the Trinity but what I believe isn’t the Trinity, is that not a problem? Do trinitarians want pastors and Sunday School teachers teaching unitarianism and calling it trinitarianism? I don’t think so.

This is an education problem.
 

Matthias

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How can anyone believe in the Trinity if he or she doesn’t know and understand what the church which affirms it (Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox) teaches about it?

How can anyone reject the Trinity if he or she doesn’t know and understand what the church which affirms it teaches about it?

How will people hear that teaching if / when it isn’t being taught in the pulpit and Sunday School classrooms of the church which affirms it? (Or in the pulpit and Sunday Schools classrooms of the church which doesn’t affirm it?)

Church history, in general, should be taught in the church and by the church.

”Just say you believe in the Trinity” isn’t proper instruction about the Trinity.

If the church which affirms the Trinity wants people to believe in the Trinity is filled with a substantial number of people who when surveyed say they reject the Trinity, the church clergy is doing an exceedingly poor job of educating the congregation in their care.

How will that church hope to persuade those who are not in any congregation to believe in the Trinity when it doesn’t properly instruct such people about the Trinity?

“I reject the Trinity but I don’t know and understand what the church affirms about it or why it does” is just as problematical as “I believe in the Trinity but I don’t know or understand what the church expects me to be affirming about it”.

Education is key.
 

Matthias

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I read an old thread on the forum recently which had received no replies in four years. The person who initiated the thread had posted some personal information and then asked if others thought he was a Christian based on the information supplied.

I don’t know why no Christian responded, and I won’t speculate about it. That person has long been gone from this platform. I lamented a lost opportunity.

I will say though that it strikes me as a microcosm. Churches have substantial numbers of people sitting in them who reject Trinity. How many of them would dare to ask, do you think I’m a Christian? How many of them would the question even cross their minds?

If believing in or rejecting the Trinity is serious business - I believe that it is and the church which affirms it believes that it is - then serious education about it must be provided.

***

“Only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians believe in the Trinity.”

If that doesn’t wake up the trinitarian clergy then it isn’t as serious a business as they say that it is.
 

Matthias

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Because personal faith (free thought) is not the same as institutional statements.

That’s right.

Blow up the institutional statements. Set them on fire. Bury the ashes. The Trinity then becomes anything anyone wants it to be.

“I’m a trinitarian! I believe in the Trinity! You should believe in the Trinity! But what you must never do is define the Trinity and insist on that definition.”
 

Matthias

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Is there a ‘properly’ standard that can be agreed across the board?

No. And why is that? Rejection of the institutional standard.

I spoke with a trinitarian recently who insisted that even the Catholic Church rejects historical orthodox trinitarianism. It doesn’t get any more absurd than that. There can be no agreement in that case.
 

Matthias

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Someone asked me years ago if I hoped that my students would affirm historical orthodox trinitarianism after taking my classes on the subject.

No. I hoped that my students who learned about historical orthodox trinitarianism would then decide for themselves whether to affirm it or reject it.

My students had to be properly equipped before they could make an informed decision. Teaching them something about the Trinity which wasn’t true would have been a disservice to them. I taught them using only the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, ECF and trinitarian sources. I didn’t instruct them to affirm nor did I instruct them to reject.
 

Debp

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I don't want to argue about it.

But I believe in the Trinity. Jesus spoke of His Father, and Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to indwell believers when He went back to the Father.
 
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Matthias

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I don't want to argue about it.

Thank you. I don’t want to argue about it either.

But I believe in the Trinity.

I know. Whether a person does or doesn’t, the subject of the thread is proper education about the Trinity.

Jesus spoke of His Father, and Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to indwell believers when He went back to the Father.
 
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talons

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From my X / Twitter “For you” feed today.


Let me say at the outset that my intention with this thread is to discuss education. This thread was not created to discuss or debate the Trinity.

I’ve been complaining for decades that the subject isn’t being taught in churches; not from the pulpit, not in Sunday School classrooms, and not in Bible studies. It should be.

From the article:

”Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox churches are trinitarian, teaching that the God of the Bible is one inseparable and unified deity comprised of three persons. Two out of three Americans claim to be Christian, leading to the expectation that they embrace the core teachings of their chosen faith.

Yet, a new research report from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University shows that only 11% of American adults, and only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians, believe in the trinity.

Weak Foundations

The trinity is one of the central theological foundations of Christian churches. However, that teach is widely misunderstood, often rejected, and rarely acted upon by Americans. The unfamiliarity or negligible acceptance of the trinity among self-described Christian adults raises serious ministry challenges for churches and families, in addition to creating practical dilemmas for the nation. …

’It could be argued that the primary theologians influencing the spiritual views of America these days are figures such as Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, Megyn Kelly, and Bill Maher,‘ Barna noted. ‘They mix practical and sometimes unbiblical theology and philosophical points of view into their commentary on life and world events. Meanwhile, many Christian churches are focused on delivering multi-part series that are not effectively developing or bolstering an integrated, biblical worldview that congregants can rely upon to counteract popular, secular takes on reality.’

‘We know from our national worldview tracking studies that most Americans are uninformed about the many essential biblical teachings, ranging from the Ten Commandments and the trinity, to matters related to repentance, salvation, the chief purpose of life, and divine measure of success,’ Barna noted.

’These findings about America‘s ignorance or rejection of the trinity are simply another in a long list of examples of people living without the truths and life principles of God shaping their life,’ he continued.

’These results are further evidence of the limited or lack of trust Americans have in the Bible, the limitations we place on the authority and influence on God, and our refusal to cooperate with God by living in harmony with His ways and purposes,’ Barna explained. ‘Even the statistics for the groups that are most in-tune with biblical teachings, such as belief in the nature and impact of the trinity, are shockingly low for a nation in which most people claim to be Christian.’ …”


I didn’t need the poll to tell me this. I learned it when I was a Bible college student. I observed it in the classroom as an adjunct college professor teaching in the field of Christian education, through visiting services at various churches, on the street and in discussion with people on internet discussion forums who self-identify as Christian.

I lay this appalling situation squarely at the feet of the clergy, but that doesn’t excuse those who aren’t in the clergy from the obligation of obtaining proper instruction for themselves.

I‘m renewing my call here, in this thread, for education to be provided in churches and in homes on historical orthodox trinitarianism. My hope is that others - trinitarian and non-trinitarian alike - will support this effort.
I was educated by the Holy Spirit when I was born again . The Father , The Son , The Holy Spirit , I have absolutely no doubt of their existence and influence over my life . :100:
 
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Wick Stick

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I was speaking with someone very recently - today, in fact - who self-identifies as Christian. This person told me the following -

“So believe that Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit is God …

And, the Father? Yes? Is God!

Good! You are a Trinitarian.”

The problem with that - which should be obvious but wasn’t to that person - is that those propositions are all affirmed and asserted by the largest branch of unitarianism.
I don't find this particularly troubling. All of the statements affirmed here are true. Perhaps they don't constitute Trinitarianism, but being true is enough for me. Do we really need some kind of -ism with which to exclude each other?
The person isn’t knowledgeable of church history and hasn’t been properly instructed about the Trinity. Churches are filled with people like that.
Again, this doesn't seem like a pressing problem. Church history is more often a cautionary tale, than something to emulate. Personally, I find studies of the early church rewarding, and the later we get in history, the more questionable it becomes.
This is a slightly different from the poll, which tells us the majority of Americans reject the Trinity.

If I tell you that I believe in the Trinity but what I believe isn’t the Trinity, is that not a problem? Do trinitarians want pastors and Sunday School teachers teaching unitarianism and calling it trinitarianism? I don’t think so.

This is an education problem.
I'm not convinced that a nuanced understanding of the Godhead is all that important. If there was one area where I'd like the church to be a little more educated, it would be understanding what Jesus actually taught. How can one be a follower of Christ, if they don't know what He taught in the first place?
 

Matthias

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I’m neither Catholic nor Protestant. No one ever asks but, for the record, I not Eastern Orthodox. (I seldom come across them.) I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes Jesus of Nazareth (who is also a Jewish monotheist) is the Messiah, Son of the living God. That is not good enough in the eyes of orthodox trinitarianism; though interestingly, it is good enough in the eyes of some trinitarians. God bless them for the way that they treat me.

I’ve briefly (?) spoken about my experience with Christians who reject the Trinity. According to the poll, only 16% of people who self-identify as Christian believe in the Trinity.

Some questions for Christians who do believe in the Trinity:

1. Do you think the poll results are accurate?
2. Do you agree or disagree that proper education on the Trinity is essential?
3. Did you receive instruction from the church you attend on church history?
4. Did you receive instruction from the church you attend on the details of the historical doctrine of the Trinity?
 

Matthias

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I was educated by the Holy Spirit when I was born again . The Father , The Son , The Holy Spirit , I have absolutely no doubt of their existence and influence over my life . :100:

Same here about myself. And yet I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

I commented to someone else a few days ago that most of what I know about theology - trinitarian and non-trinitarian - I learned from trinitarian scholars who believed and taught historical orthodox trinitarianism.
 
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