Babylon – The Great City - Jerusalem -Then and Today!

[Spiritual Israelite]

I once heard Tovia Singer, a well known counter-missionary Jewish (Judaism) commentator say - "
a person is responsible for the truth he has been revealed."

I agree with the principle of his statement. If the Jew, in your hypothetical question, rejected Jesus and the gospel of salvation, assuming that Jew had been revealed the truth sufficiently in the eyes of God, but still rejected Jesus and the gospel of salvation, and died.... then, yes, that person will be permanently broke off, should he die in that state of unbelief.

Would you say that Jew was unlucky to not live during the time during which you believe all Jews will be saved?

 

[Douggg]

That being said, the OT promises are not meant for Jews, they are meant for Jews that accept Jesus as the Messiah. Would you agree with that statement?

I think you meant to say the OT promises are not meant for Jews in general, but specifically for Jews that accept Jesus as the Messiah.

If that is what you meant, then I agree. But I think we have to look at what specific OT promises that applies to.

For example, in Ezekiel 37, God promised that He would restore the nation of Israel as one nation again, no longer two nations of north and south. That promise was fulfilled on May 14, 1948. The Jews involved, mostly were not Christians.

 

[grafted branch]

I think you meant to say the OT promises are not meant for Jews in general, but specifically for Jews that accept Jesus as the Messiah.

If that is what you meant, then I agree. But I think we have to look at what specific OT promises that applies to.

For example, in Ezekiel 37, God promised that He would restore the nation of Israel as one nation again, no longer two nations of north and south. That promise was fulfilled on May 14, 1948. The Jews involved, mostly were not Christians.

Yes, that’s what I meant. So let’s look at Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

I would say the promises are made to the Jews who are one inwardly. Whatever you consider the “one nation again” to be it has to be fulfilled on the Jews who are Jews inwardly, right? Would you agree?

 

[Douggg]

I would say the promises are made to the Jews who are one inwardly. Whatever you consider the “one nation again” to be it has to be fulfilled on the Jews who are Jews inwardly, right? Would you agree?

Regarding God's promise to make Israel one nation again, fulfilled on May 14, 1948, was due to God's love - although the majority are yet sinners.

Romes 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So I would not agree that particular OT promise of Israel one nation again is predicated on those Jews being Christians.

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An interesting comparison is that we as Christians are looking for the redemption of our bodies, some day in the resurrection/rapture event. The completion of our salvation.

While the Jews (Judaism) consider the completion of the gathering of all the Jews from the nations as being "the final redemption" to use their term.

 

[grafted branch]

Regarding God's promise to make Israel one nation again, fulfilled on May 14, 1948, was due to God's love - although the majority are yet sinners.

Romes 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So I would not agree that particular OT promise of Israel one nation again is predicated on those Jews being Christians.

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An interesting comparison is that we as Christians are looking for the redemption of our bodies, some day in the resurrection/rapture event. The completion of our salvation.

While the Jews (Judaism) consider the completion of the gathering of all the Jews from the nations as being "the final redemption" to use their term.

Ok, so how are you determining which promises are fulfilled on unbelieving Jews and which promises are fulfilled on believing Jews? Is it just a case by case observation? I would think the judgments and wrath take place on the unbelievers while the positives like sins forgiven and living with the Lord take place on the believers.

Israel becoming a nation would seem to be a positive event. Are there any other positive promises that take place on unbelieving Jews?

 

[Douggg]

Israel becoming a nation would seem to be a positive event. Are there any other positive promises that take place on unbelieving Jews?

I think God's promise to defend Israel when the Gog/Magog attack of Ezekiel 38-39 will take place before the Jews believe upon Jesus.

 

[APAK]

I don't buy the dual meaning explanation at all. That seems like a cop out to me. It seems that when people are shown that something was not fulfilled in the past, they resort to the dual meaning or dual fulfillment explanation.


Where is there any indication in the text itself that Babylon should be understood as referring to ancient earthly Jerusalem and to a future version of Jerusalem? It's not there. I'm not buying this at all.


Jerusalem did not rule the kings of the earth, so why are you claiming that? You're taking the text too literally. It's not talking about a literal city sitting on seven literal hills. Revelation is primarily a book of symbolism, bu you have decided to interpret it as literally as possible, which is a common mistake that both preterists and futurists make. The seven heads of the beast are symbolized by seven mountains (it's not seven hills, it's seven mountains which symbolize kingdoms) that the beast sits on which aren't any more literal than the many waters that the woman Babylon sits on (Rev 17:1,15). The mountains represent historical kingdoms or world empires. Notice in Revelation 17:8 it says "one is". That was the Roman empire that existed at the time the book was written.


Rome ruled the known world at that time, not Jerusalem.

But, the beast and Babylon are not entities that only existed in that time period. They are spiritual entities, not earthly entities. Babylon is the exact spiritual opposite of the new Jerusalem.

So now that you have past the criticism phase, can you now include the remedies or reveal the correct solutions of your exam?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So now that you have past the criticism phase, can you now include the remedies or reveal the correct solutions of your exam?

Do you think my criticisms are valid or not? Can you please address what I said first before I address your request?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think God's promise to defend Israel when the Gog/Magog attack of Ezekiel 38-39 will take place before the Jews believe upon Jesus.

Look at how Jesus addressed unbelieving Jews in Matthew 23. Why would you think that God would make any promises to unbelieving Jews, knowing how much disdain He has for their behavior (called them hypocrites and snakes, etc.)? He ended up destroying them and their city in 70 AD. You think God makes promises that will benefit such people? He only promises to destroy them if they don't repent. He makes no other promises to them.

 

[APAK]

Do you think my criticisms are valid or not? Can you please address what I said first before I address your request?

I do not want to be premature and say if all your criticisms are valid or not at this point. I'm still questioning many areas in prophecy. I consider what I know now is the best fit for me, although there are many more pieces to add in.

I do view Revelation in both an immediate literal and symbolic flavor. It depends on the many moving parts or variables we are speaking about at the time. For example, I view the literal and spiritual/or apostate spirit of Jerusalem destroyed by 70 AD. And as I said before, at least the spiritual 'city' of apostacy raises its ugly head again in the future. It mostly probably won't be an actual one city, a collection of nations, a global spirit of Babylon, covering and influencing the entire globe with it evil, with its dominant politics, economics, military and common religion. And this is the future 'Jerusalem' symbol of evil to be used as its has the same future characterizes and MO as the the Jerusalem and its apostate spirit that was conquered, finally, by the first century.

As a note, Jerusalem, in history since David has always been influential and swayed many nations, if not the entire known world.

The elegant clothing, jewelry, and precious metals illustrate(d) her wealth. It is/was wealthy among nations, not merely a separatist people of a unique religion. As a group, the Israelites, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, grew to control around 60% of the world's wealth at the height of their prosperity.

Nobody else on earth is in the position to influence, persuade, and guide as Israel is and did. Through the misuse of these gifts, Israel has risen to worldly greatness in terms of evil too. Despite its material greatness, it is unfortunately also spiritually great in its immorality, great in its confusion of the truth, great in its deviance from responsibility, great in its polluted influence—so great in its power only it can hold the (final) Beast in check and make it do its bidding until God's time comes.

So then another dual meaning/event of two timelines: 1. The Beast of Rome, representing many nations of the known world in associatin with Jerusalem and 2., in the future with those converts since the 700-900 AD, calling themselves Jews today, who are not the genuine article. As imitators of those of God, they have slowly, patiently and methodically carried the Pharisaic torch into the 21st century. This same evil Anti-Christian spirit, a Babylonian spirit of today has gone global because of these people....No other nation of people on earth today fits the characteristics given in Revelation 17 and 18.

There's much much I can say on this point...

So I reckon you will be very critical of this last point indeed. Although it does logically fit....c'est la vie, mon ami..!

...please add to my thoughts it they make so sense, regardless whether you disagree from some deep emotional invested constraints etc...

​

APAK.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As a note, Jerusalem, in history since David has always been influential and swayed many nations, if not the entire known world.

The text indicates that Babylon influences all nations and therefore literally the entire world. Jerusalem never had that kind of influence.

The elegant clothing, jewelry, and precious metals illustrate(d) her wealth. It is/was wealthy among nations, not merely a separatist people of a unique religion. As a group, the Israelites, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, grew to control around 60% of the world's wealth at the height of their prosperity.

Nobody else on earth is in the position to influence, persuade, and guide as Israel is and did. Through the misuse of these gifts, Israel has risen to worldly greatness in terms of evil too. Despite its material greatness, it is unfortunately also spiritually great in its immorality, great in its confusion of the truth, great in its deviance from responsibility, great in its polluted influence—so great in its power only it can hold the (final) Beast in check and make it do its bidding until God's time comes.

So then another dual meaning/event of two timelines: 1. The Beast of Rome, representing many nations of the known world in associatin with Jerusalem and 2., in the future with those converts since the 700-900 AD, calling themselves Jews today, who are not the genuine article. As imitators of those of God, they have slowly, patiently and methodically carried the Pharisaic torch into the 21st century. This same evil Anti-Christian spirit, a Babylonian spirit of today has gone global because of these people....No other nation of people on earth today fits the characteristics given in Revelation 17 and 18.

There's much much I can say on this point...

Your view of the beast and Babylon is too narrow. Literally all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). How can that describe any one nation today? It doesn't. Not even close. The scope of the beast and Babylon goes well beyond just Rome and Jerusalem today. Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the heavenly new Jerusalem. It doesn't represent any one particular earthly entity, but has influence over the entire earth. Literally all unbelievers are spiritual citizens of Babylon, while all believers are spiritual citizens of the heavenly new Jerusalem (Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22).

So I reckon you will be very critical of this last point indeed. Although it does logically fit....c'est la vie, mon ami..!

I disagree. It doesn't. Jerusalem never had the global scope of influence that is described in Revelation in relation to Babylon. It says Babylon is the mother of all harlots (Rev 17:5), so Jerusalem was just one of the many harlots who have Babylon as their mother.

 

[APAK]

The text indicates that Babylon influences all nations and therefore literally the entire world. Jerusalem never had that kind of influence.


Your view of the beast and Babylon is too narrow. Literally all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8). How can that describe any one nation today? It doesn't. Not even close. The scope of the beast and Babylon goes well beyond just Rome and Jerusalem today. Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the heavenly new Jerusalem. It doesn't represent any one particular earthly entity, but has influence over the entire earth. Literally all unbelievers are spiritual citizens of Babylon, while all believers are spiritual citizens of the heavenly new Jerusalem (Gal 4:26, Heb 12:22).


I disagree. It doesn't. Jerusalem never had the global scope of influence that is described in Revelation in relation to Babylon. It says Babylon is the mother of all harlots (Rev 17:5), so Jerusalem was just one of the many harlots who have Babylon as their mother.

It seems you hang your hat on your own thinking about the lack of influence of Jerusalem before, and in the future; as very minimal.

That is a mistake.

And you cannot believe scripture, that John was speaking in Revelation to his own generation, primarily, that is most probably your first step on the wrong path to discovery.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It seems you hang your hat on your own thinking about the lack of influence of Jerusalem before, and in the future; as very minimal.

That is a mistake.

I'm not saying Jerusalem's influence was "very minimal", but not the complete global influence that Babylon has. The mistake here is in your understanding of my point.

And you cannot believe scripture, that John was speaking in Revelation to his own generation, primarily, that is most probably your first step on the wrong path to discovery.

The truths taught in the book of Revelation apply to all generations, not just John's own generation. Thinking otherwise if your first step on the wrong path to discovery. Just because the book was addressed to first century churches doesn't mean the things taught in relation to those churches don't apply to all churches during the NT era. The book of Revelation covers the time period from Christ's first coming until His second coming and relates to things that happen throughout that time period, so interpreting it from a preterist perspective is your mistake.

 

[Gottservant]

I'm replying to the OP, for my own sake.

Babylon is a spiritual city, that exists in different forms around the world (much like the kings of the anti-christ take different forms).

If you go to Heaven and look for Babylon, it is not there.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I'm replying to the OP, for my own sake.

Babylon is a spiritual city, that exists in different forms around the world (much like the kings of the anti-christ take different forms).

If you go to Heaven and look for Babylon, it is not there.

Spiritual Babylon in different forms all over the world? The "kings of the antichrist"? What are you talking about? Why are you keep making up terms. Don't you know how to quote Scripture to support your doctrine?