No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for The Kingdom of God.
Are You Dead to Self?
- Thread starter Episkopos
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
And this doesn't mean that a person who looks back will be damned or barred from the kingdom walk in the future. It means the person isn't yet ready. I speak from personal experience.
What you call the kingdom walk or the higher walk is actually walking in The Spirit. And that I speak from personal experience.
We've been over this ground before, but here goes anyhow.
Rom 4:20-25
He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Those scrips are not that hard to understand…with just a little bit of help from the Holy Spirit.
Why does it take faith to believe in the promises of God if they are already necessarily “seen”? God is calling those things which be not as though they are. Says elsewhere that he who has this hope (by faith) purifies himself as He is pure….ie, imputed righteousness.
And Jesus being delivered for our offences, speaks to His death on the cross paying the penalty for our sins……and His being raised from the dead speaks to our justification/exoneration…..ie, freed from the penalty of death (wages of death for sins). We have been raised with Him to walk in newness of life it says in Romans 6. We've been baptised into both His death and resurrection.
Justification by works…..? Jesus said the work of God is this, to believe on the one He has sent.
His death and resurrection…..through our faith in Him…..has paid the price for our justification/exoneration.
Rom 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Romans 12
King James Version
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
I believe that verse speaks to a longing for the leeks and onions of "Egypt" - craving things of the world and worldly lifestyle that we left behind when we came to faith. Especially if troubles and persecutions come because of belonging to the Lord.....like the shallow ground that some of the farmer's seed fell on. It's not an easy path, and the ploughing of our hearts, or co-labouring thus with the Lord in His field, is not an easy thing........but our hearts should not turn back to become set on this world again after we receive Christ but persevere and keep seeking His kingdom and things above.
If Christ is in us then we are in Him. But we need to learn and realize the difference between what has been put under His feet (everything) and what we do not yet see put under Him in our life and heart.....that begins to happen with a believer who has passed through the "honeymoon" phase and is beginning to mature through the discipline and chastenings of the Lord (ploughing of our hearts to remove and demolish the stumps and boulders in the way, ouch) that we may partake of His holiness.
It is even those chastenings that work humility in our hearts and help to keep us or cure us from Phariseeical holier than thou attitudes.
This is a major deviation from the biblical narrative. The bible makes a distinction between being corporately in Him and individually in Him. As in...not all are Israel who are in Israel. Jesus is able to spit out of His mouth the ones who retain iniquity...by believing things about themselves that aren't true. Are modern superficial believers in Christ? Answer...not for long.
On Earth as it is in heaven doesn't mean we are working things downward as God is. God already is in the truth...we are not. No, we are working things upward, conforming to the truth. So your understanding is exactly upside down.
The irony is that to work things upward...we need to be broken and go downward. He gives grace to the humble. Someone who believes they already are justified and have the righteousness of God "imputed" to them (which is a monumental error that guarantees a future rejection) IS NOT humble. Such are fully deceived in the Great Delusion. Being high-minded is a continuation of the sin of the Jews...to claim to be something, but not BEING such. The gospel is not a choice between condemnation and salvation. Any self-interested hypocrite is going to choose salvation. That's not the choice offered to us. Religious ideology would have us to believe that we will be judged based on the accuracy of our beliefs. But the accuracy is only attained when we forsake the flesh and realize we will only be judged by what we did....no matter our beliefs and doctrinal positions. So a false gospel is based on a salvation scheme that is actually a trap for the carnal man. God has spread a net to catch the pretenders. And that net is close to bursting with the ones who think that God loves a cheerful TAKER.
There is a great temptation among people to miss the point of redemption. Does God want to preserve us in the way we see ourselves? No. He wants to break us. He wants to love the sin out of us. ...not love us in our sin.
Last edited:
- Jan 27, 2021
- 5,343
- 9,254
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Behold
Well-Known Member
John's Revelation does not say that Jesus "spit out sinners".
So once again, your commentary set, is "anti-NT Truth".
Jesus said that being LUKEWARM, was the reason for His "spit'.
James would define this as having "dead faith".......and that is not dead Salvation.. that is "Lukewarm"... neither "cold nor hot".
This idea is... "indifferent".. "no passion".. "going through the motions". "cold heart".
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Behold
Well-Known Member
That is Paul's exact teaching, you are denying., again.
Paul teaches that the born again are "made righteous"... and that happens at NEW Birth, = Born again.
This is when God's Redemption, that is the "imputed righteousness of Christ"... creates the Born AGAIN BELIEVER, as a "New Creation in Christ".
This is to become.. "THE... righteousness OF GOD.... IN Christ"..
"born again".
I agree with you that the way up is down, so to speak. But, yes we are working and building upward........but from the foundation (cornerstone which is Christ Himself) that has been built and set into our being like a solid Rock. The foundation and the rest of the building are all of ONE.
Jhn 14:16-20
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
1Jo 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
The bible speaks on this-wise (which I can't help but notice is not the same-wise as you often speak):
Rom 6:1-3
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
And John wrote that if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us. So we are never without sin in this life because sin is in our flesh and fallen nature...but the goal is to live above our sin by living above our flesh and fallen nature......to reckon it dead, crucified. That is what walking in the spirit is all about. It gives us victory over our flesh/old man and sin. We are not obligated to the flesh any longer, as the bible puts it.
Unlearned and spiritually inexperienced people twist Paul's words. Peter warns us about this. Paul is speaking about justification by faith....which is a basic righteousness...OUR righteousness. The righteousness of God is by entering INTO Christ to walk as Jesus walked in His life and power. As such we are COVERED by His righteousness...God's righteousness. That righteousness cannot be imputed to us because it remains His. The same for holiness. God's holiness is never imputed to us...no, we are covered by HIS holiness by entering INTO Christ.
We enter into the things of God. These are never our own. We have our own righteousness to develop...without trying to do such. No man is righteous based on self-effort.
Unless one understands this they are holding the truth in UNrighteousness. As Paul states. So then we don't forsake righteousness to be covered up with God's righteousness. No Our sins do not promote grace.
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Gal. 2:17
We know we are covered by God's righteousness when we walk as Jesus walked...in the power of His resurrection. Otherwise we are assuming and speculating...puffing up our carnal minds against the truth.
We are made righteous in God's eyes by faith...like Abraham. The silliest notion is that Abraham was seen by God as being as righteous as God...or God seeing Abraham as righteous as Himself.
No. Born again makes us spiritual babies. It makes us equivalent to a Jew...a member of spiritual Israel. Does God hate natural Israel? No. But we have to learn their lessons if we want to avoid being also cut off. Paul warns Gentiles very sternly.
Read what Paul says about being grafted into the Vine.
I see a fundamental misunderstanding about God's requirement in the New Covenant.
The righteousness of the law is like being given a small spoon and told to fill a container the size of a city. Of course many will try and fail in the attempt. It looks to be possible until you realize the scale of the problem
The righteousness of God is to equip people with a steam shovel (excavator) and told to do the same thing? NO. To whom much is given MORE is required. With a new tool...the steam shovel (grace) we are expected to do an equivalent task in SCALE to what the Jews had to do. A perfect parallel. The problem with modern religion is to think we have it easier than the Jews under the law. But that isn't the case. We have to fill not just a city sized container but one that encompasses the whole world. Again, It looks to be possible until you realize the scale of the problem
In both cases it is impossible. In both cases men claim to be doing what is required. We let ourselves off the hook without doing God's will. But we can't do it. And we need to recognize that and seek God for His grace. That's the whole point. If we had the faith the size of a small seed, we could fill entire continents. God's ways are miraculous. But faith is lacking. Faith has been replaced with religious beliefs based on self-interest that promises great things WITHOUT doing God's will at all. It is man-centered...salvation centered. It sees God's standard lowered to the point where there is no problem for us. But that is to fully miss the gospel...which is the power to do the impossible...by grace through faith.
The righteousness of the law is like being given a small spoon and told to fill a container the size of a city. Of course many will try and fail in the attempt. It looks to be possible until you realize the scale of the problem
The righteousness of God is to equip people with a steam shovel (excavator) and told to do the same thing? NO. To whom much is given MORE is required. With a new tool...the steam shovel (grace) we are expected to do an equivalent task in SCALE to what the Jews had to do. A perfect parallel. The problem with modern religion is to think we have it easier than the Jews under the law. But that isn't the case. We have to fill not just a city sized container but one that encompasses the whole world. Again, It looks to be possible until you realize the scale of the problem
In both cases it is impossible. In both cases men claim to be doing what is required. We let ourselves off the hook without doing God's will. But we can't do it. And we need to recognize that and seek God for His grace. That's the whole point. If we had the faith the size of a small seed, we could fill entire continents. God's ways are miraculous. But faith is lacking. Faith has been replaced with religious beliefs based on self-interest that promises great things WITHOUT doing God's will at all. It is man-centered...salvation centered. It sees God's standard lowered to the point where there is no problem for us. But that is to fully miss the gospel...which is the power to do the impossible...by grace through faith.
@Lizbeth wrote - And John wrote that if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8.
As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4).
In the same letter we read:
He that commiteth sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.
Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not, whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him neither known Him John 3:6
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 1 John 3:9
He that abideth in Him ought himself also to walk, as even as He walked 1 John 2:6
He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4
Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7
My little children, these things I write to you that you sin not. 1 John 2:1
John’s first letter was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.
The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the early or proto Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism.’ These Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.
We see that John is describing a process whereby we can test ourselves to see if we are in the true Light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, and pointing out where the early Gnostic idea has been creeping in:
1:7 if we say we have no sin (as in Gnosticism, my insert) we deceive ourselves 1:8 but if we confess our sin, He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Here John shows where the deceivers depart from the truth. Their teaching was that they had no need of this cleansing, as they did not consider immoral actions as sin due to matter being evil which was escaped through having ‘special’ knowledge and not in keeping God’s law. They maintained that a child of God could still sin and continue to have fellowship with God, a concept which was known as ‘spirit salvation’.
The early fathers on the other hand, taught that we must at least be on the road to theosis or union with Christ and this starts with Purification, or knowledge of the sin within, with the desire that we will be cleansed from all sin not that it might remain within. We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is, walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about the 'carnal' or fleshy, against those who were walking in the Spirit.
In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-
1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.
Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-
1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for cleansing from all sin.
So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from all sin. The letter is to believers and not unbelievers. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.
Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were to be in fellowship with Christ, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from all sin and come to Christ then He will be able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness and are in union with Christ, or in the state of theosis.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:8.
As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4).
In the same letter we read:
He that commiteth sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.
Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not, whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him neither known Him John 3:6
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 1 John 3:9
He that abideth in Him ought himself also to walk, as even as He walked 1 John 2:6
He that saith I know Him and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:4
Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7
My little children, these things I write to you that you sin not. 1 John 2:1
John’s first letter was written to counteract the heresy which was affecting the church and was a treatise for Christians in general as there is no mention of a specific church as was contended by Lampe in his appeal to Theodoret.
The apostle is declaring to the whole world, his disapprobation of the doctrines maintained by the early or proto Gnostics who taught that Jesus was by birth a mere man but that 'the Christ' descended on Him at His baptism.’ These Gnostics, who taught that man could be righteous in spirit and still sin in the flesh, contended that the apostles had added commandments not given by Christ concerning the doctrine of sanctification. John devotes the greatest part of his epistle to the confirmation and enforcement of his doctrine.
We see that John is describing a process whereby we can test ourselves to see if we are in the true Light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, and pointing out where the early Gnostic idea has been creeping in:
1:7 if we say we have no sin (as in Gnosticism, my insert) we deceive ourselves 1:8 but if we confess our sin, He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Here John shows where the deceivers depart from the truth. Their teaching was that they had no need of this cleansing, as they did not consider immoral actions as sin due to matter being evil which was escaped through having ‘special’ knowledge and not in keeping God’s law. They maintained that a child of God could still sin and continue to have fellowship with God, a concept which was known as ‘spirit salvation’.
The early fathers on the other hand, taught that we must at least be on the road to theosis or union with Christ and this starts with Purification, or knowledge of the sin within, with the desire that we will be cleansed from all sin not that it might remain within. We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness that is, walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about the 'carnal' or fleshy, against those who were walking in the Spirit.
In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-
1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.
Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-
1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for cleansing from all sin.
So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from all sin. The letter is to believers and not unbelievers. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.
Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were to be in fellowship with Christ, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from all sin and come to Christ then He will be able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness and are in union with Christ, or in the state of theosis.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Yes you do.
We are covered by His Blood Atonement, and this is to have received the "imputed righteousness".
Paul teaches this as to have received the "GIFT of Righteousness". which to be "made Righteous".
You dont have any righteousness of yourself., as "all have sinned, there is none righteous, no not one'.
This is why we God to God through Christ...so that we can receive "the GIFT of Righteousness".... Paul Teaches.
Until you are born again....You're a sinner, who needs God's righteousness that Christ offers you, as "the Gift of Righteousness"., or yoyu remain "in your sins".
Having the "imputed righteousness of Christ"., means that "God hath made Jesus to be sin, for us"..
"US" is the forgiven all your sin, Born again CHRISTian.
Someone who is seeking Treasure, does not have it yet.
Someone who is seeking to be justified, is not justified yet..
Whereas the born again are eternally Justified by God, because their "Faith is counted as (Christ's) Righteousness.""
All the born again are "MADE Righteous"... .forever.
This is to become a "new Creation" IN CHRIST"...= born again, as a "Son/Daughter" of God. = "One with God".
The born again exist there, having become : """"THE righteousness of GOD, in Christ"""..........Paul teaches.
You can't walk on water, and you can't raise the dead.
In fact you can't at this point, even understand Salvation, according to your posts, Threads, and Videos.
So, here is the thing..
Its because of the Cross of Christ that God can accept you.., John 14:6
And this is the born again, CHRISTiain, who is "accepted in the Beloved".
The born again are "ONE with God", and you can't become more righteous then that, as that is GOD's Righteousness, "imputed" to the BELIEVER, as otherwise God could not Spiritually Birth the person into Himself as BORN.. AGAIN... Spiritually.
Yes, being "made righteous" is to be made Righteous by God...through the Cross of Christ.. , and not by works.
The born again are made righteous, because they are forgiven all sin, and then given = "The Gift of Righteousness"...
To be "born again" is to become..."THE..Righteousness OF GOD>..."IN CHRIST" ........and all the born again are "IN CHRIST"....forever.
It does not make us spiritual babies, as the born again Spirit is "IN Christ'.
The "baby' is the beginning of the understanding of what it means to have become a "new creation in Christ".
The brand new Christian, is 100% redeemed, and forgiven, and "made righteous".. but they have no understanding yet, and that is why they must "study to show themselves approved unto God.." as its by the word of God that the revelation of the knowledge of God, is revealed.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The main purpose of the Law, is to show you that you are unrighteous and need to get this resolved by God's Grace, that is found as Christ, Himself., on The Cross.
Jesus is Salvation.
What the law does is require righteousness from you that you dont have, .......because...>"All have sinned, there is none righteous, no not one".
So, The Cross of Christ.. is God offering HIS Righteousness, as "The Gift of Salvation" to "ALL who will Believe".
Welcome To : SALVATION
Its "the GIFT of Righteousness."""
Its "the Gift of Eternal life".
I dont' know that I can parse all this sister, I'll try to look at it again tomorrow morning when I'm fresher, but what comes to mind right now is that Paul wrote "if I do that I don't want to do, it is no more I who sin but sin living in me". Jesus was the only man who was without sin entirely....I don't believe we will ever be without sin as long as we are alive on earth in this body of flesh, but I believe the idea is to live in victory over the flesh/sin....consider/reckon it to be dead....when we are walking in the Spirit that is what we are doing....walking in that victory and ruling over our flesh/carnal nature where sin and iniquity does reside. Can God give grace to do that 24/7/365....I believe potentially yes, and that is what we should aim for. Old man crucified with Christ is not a literal thing but is a reference to it being put under our/Christ's feet. That is why it says to "reckon" our old man to be dead.....it's "as if" it is dead, or we are dead to it. How I'm seeing this.
Paul wrote "if I do that I don't want to do, it is no more I who sin but sin living in me".
Sister you are following the interpretation that came into the church later on, for that chapter. I won't overload you with the correct interpretation till you have a chance to catch up.
Sister you are following the interpretation that came into the church later on, for that chapter. I won't overload you with the correct interpretation till you have a chance to catch up.
Similar threads
