Are You Dead to Self?

[Lizbeth]

Paul wrote "if I do that I don't want to do, it is no more I who sin but sin living in me".

Sister you are following the interpretation that came into the church later on, for that chapter. I won't overload you with the correct interpretation till you have a chance to catch up.

Any way you can put it in a nutshell for me? lol.

Anyhow that is from my own reading of it. I believe it is how God chooses to see the believer through grace. He is being gracious in not counting/reckoning our sins against us in the sense that He is not condemning us, because Jesus already suffered condemnation for us. (Up to a point...we are not to presume on His grace.....I dont' believe the Lord will longsuffer forever if a believer keeps on sinning wilfully and never repents of it.)

But it doesn't mean He won't chastise us for sinning though....because He often will. We may well receive consequences of His discipline according to how we sow, if that is what we need to learn and overcome. Other times He will not treat us as our sins deserve, if we are already contrite and upset with ourselves and in need to experience His kindness in face of our just desserts. (I've experienced both in my life.)

 

[Hepzibah]

Sister I encourage you to read this again slowly:

"As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4)."

People read this and then read the verses from 1John and think they have it, but no, they are taking two bits of scripture whole ignoring all of the verses I quoted from 1John which contradict them.

Chapter 7 from the book of Romans has three possible interpretations - two being wrong - which can be proven by using the rest of scripture correctly.

In the study of Romans 7, which is part of Paul’s great Treaty on the subject of sanctification, and therefore the most important part of the Bible for believers, who have already had an encounter with the living God, it is important to keep Peter’s dire warning in mind that, “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:16.

Looking back to Romans 6, according to the interpretation that excludes both ideas that a) Paul is speaking as a non believer, and b) he is describing the normal Christian life as in Calvinism, he is speaking to those who are genuine believers who were ignorant of (and so, failing to live in) the spiritual truth he described. He is giving attention to sanctification as in Galatians 5:17, “for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and they are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things you would”. This interpretation is freely found in the early Patristic period and during periods of genuine revival as in the Great Awakenings.

We see the same method used in 1John where he uses the A-B, A-B, A-B system to juxtipose those who walk with God versus those who walk in sin and darkness, which is another great passage that is ‘wrest’.

Those who wish to read chapter 7 as Paul speaking about his unconverted days as a devout Pharisee, must explain it when he says of himself in Philipians 3:6, “Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.” Both scriptures cannot both be describing Paul under grace.

Chapter 7, where Paul uses a well known literally tactic called IDENTIFICATION, to define carnality in order to win the carnal believer to Christ and he becomes weak in order to gain the weak 1 Cor. 9:22. Romans 7:23 says he is held captive, by the power of sin, yet, Romans 6:6 tells us that he is set free from sin. Ephesians 4:24 tells us that “and that you put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and TRUE holiness”. He says in verse 14 that he is carnal and yet, if he was truly carnal, he would not have been penning Holy Scripture and instructing others to ‘copy him’.

Romans 7 depicts a person desiring holiness of life and can only be a believer, for the unconverted person does not long for God but is hostile towards Him. We see that the answer comes at the end of the chapter as we go on in chapter 8 of the man who has learned how to walk in the Spirit. This interpretation was partly rejected by Augustine of Hippo during his famous debate with Pelagius, who was challenging Augustine’s claim that it was the unconverted Paul, as this was not the belief of the early church. However Augustine rejected the idea that the man could go on to holiness and remained a slave to the flesh. So he brought a new interpretation into the church, which was more in line with Augustine’s former Manichean philosophy

Those that say ‘but Paul said he was ‘chief of sinners’ forget that he himself required overseers to be blameless (1 Tim. 3:2, Titus 1:7). Living in sin is far from blameless, so he would disqualify himself. He could not even be a deacon 1Tim 3:10.

Paul’s view of himself is quite contrary to this idea as he viewed himself as holy and blameless. 1 Thess 2:10 says “You are witnesses and God also, how devoutly justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe”. So why did Paul say ‘I am’ rather than ‘I was’? Again, Greek authors used the present tense for the sake of heightened vividness, thereby transporting their readers in imagination to the actual scene at the time of the occurrence. So Paul is saying that he formerly led a life of terrible sin, referring to his involvement in the stoning of Steven and saying that God could

 

[Wynona]

And John wrote that if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us. So we are never without sin in this life because sin is in our flesh and fallen nature...but the goal is to live above our sin by living above our flesh and fallen nature......to reckon it dead, crucified. That is what walking in the spirit is all about. It gives us victory over our flesh/old man and sin. We are not obligated to the flesh any longer, as the bible puts it.

1 John 1:8 doesn't mean we are never without sin at any point in our lives.



John counseled Christians to not sin at least eight times in the book of 1 John alone. Here's one

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Here's another



1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


Its important to acknowledge our sin and need for Jesus. But we aren't supposed to submit to the flesh or be in bondage to it anymore. We have been born again and don't have to submit to sin our whole lives.

 

[Lizbeth]

1 John 1:8 doesn't mean we are never without sin at any point in our lives.



John counseled Christians to not sin at least eight times in the book of 1 John alone. Here's one

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Here's another



1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


Its important to acknowledge our sin and need for Jesus. But we aren't supposed to submit to the flesh or be in bondage to it anymore. We have been born again and don't have to submit to sin our whole lives.

Amen. John is saying we do have sin. ( Our new man doesn't, but it is our old man/carnal flesh nature that has sin.) Looks to me that he is saying part of being in the light means we acknowledge and confess that.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sister I encourage you to read this again slowly:

"As we know, good exegesis consists of using the inductive method, in taking many scriptures, and deriving a general conclusion from them. ‘The number, clarity and relevance of those many passages is crucial to the theological conclusions drawn. Building a doctrine on only one or two verses or passages which are unclear or not directly related to the issue, compromises the conclusion.’ (Olson: Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, Introduction p4)."

People read this and then read the verses from 1John and think they have it, but no, they are taking two bits of scripture whole ignoring all of the verses I quoted from 1John which contradict them.

Chapter 7 from the book of Romans has three possible interpretations - two being wrong - which can be proven by using the rest of scripture correctly.

In the study of Romans 7, which is part of Paul’s great Treaty on the subject of sanctification, and therefore the most important part of the Bible for believers, who have already had an encounter with the living God, it is important to keep Peter’s dire warning in mind that, “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:16.

Looking back to Romans 6, according to the interpretation that excludes both ideas that a) Paul is speaking as a non believer, and b) he is describing the normal Christian life as in Calvinism, he is speaking to those who are genuine believers who were ignorant of (and so, failing to live in) the spiritual truth he described. He is giving attention to sanctification as in Galatians 5:17, “for the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and they are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things you would”. This interpretation is freely found in the early Patristic period and during periods of genuine revival as in the Great Awakenings.

We see the same method used in 1John where he uses the A-B, A-B, A-B system to juxtipose those who walk with God versus those who walk in sin and darkness, which is another great passage that is ‘wrest’.

Those who wish to read chapter 7 as Paul speaking about his unconverted days as a devout Pharisee, must explain it when he says of himself in Philipians 3:6, “Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.” Both scriptures cannot both be describing Paul under grace.

Chapter 7, where Paul uses a well known literally tactic called IDENTIFICATION, to define carnality in order to win the carnal believer to Christ and he becomes weak in order to gain the weak 1 Cor. 9:22. Romans 7:23 says he is held captive, by the power of sin, yet, Romans 6:6 tells us that he is set free from sin. Ephesians 4:24 tells us that “and that you put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and TRUE holiness”. He says in verse 14 that he is carnal and yet, if he was truly carnal, he would not have been penning Holy Scripture and instructing others to ‘copy him’.

Romans 7 depicts a person desiring holiness of life and can only be a believer, for the unconverted person does not long for God but is hostile towards Him. We see that the answer comes at the end of the chapter as we go on in chapter 8 of the man who has learned how to walk in the Spirit. This interpretation was partly rejected by Augustine of Hippo during his famous debate with Pelagius, who was challenging Augustine’s claim that it was the unconverted Paul, as this was not the belief of the early church. However Augustine rejected the idea that the man could go on to holiness and remained a slave to the flesh. So he brought a new interpretation into the church, which was more in line with Augustine’s former Manichean philosophy

Those that say ‘but Paul said he was ‘chief of sinners’ forget that he himself required overseers to be blameless (1 Tim. 3:2, Titus 1:7). Living in sin is far from blameless, so he would disqualify himself. He could not even be a deacon 1Tim 3:10.

Paul’s view of himself is quite contrary to this idea as he viewed himself as holy and blameless. 1 Thess 2:10 says “You are witnesses and God also, how devoutly justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe”. So why did Paul say ‘I am’ rather than ‘I was’? Again, Greek authors used the present tense for the sake of heightened vividness, thereby transporting their readers in imagination to the actual scene at the time of the occurrence. So Paul is saying that he formerly led a life of terrible sin, referring to his involvement in the stoning of Steven and saying that God could

Yes, I agree we need the whole counsel of God and see scripture in light of other scriptures.

And amen, I certainly agree Paul was speaking to and about believers in Romans 7.....and I don't think he was intending to single himself out in particular when he refers to "I" but just in a way representing any believer who is walking in the flesh and hasn't learned to walk in the spirit. If he or anyone delights in the law of God after the inner man (as it also says in Rom. 7)....it has to be referring to those who have received Christ. I agree with you....did I come across as thinking otherwise?

"HAVING sin" that John wrote about, doesn't mean we have to WALK in it and COMMIT sin. It just means sin/iniquity exists in our flesh/carnal nature/old man....which we still "have" with us even though hopefully not walking in it. Does that clarify what I meant..?

 

[Wynona]

Amen. John is saying we do have sin. ( Our new man doesn't, but it is our old man/carnal flesh nature that has sin.) Looks to me that he is saying part of being in the light means we acknowledge and confess that.

Wait, we are new creations in Christ. We aren't led by carnal flesh anymore. We are slaves to either righteousness or the flesh. But you don't carry sin in your flesh as a believer. We were supposed to crucify the old man and reckon ourselves dead to sin at our baptism (Romans 6).

Everyone has sin to acknowledge to confess. We all come from a sinful past and may choose to sin after deciding to live for Christ. Abiding in Christ can help us stop sinning completely in this lifetime. Being a slave of righteousness is still the goal.

Being in the light means acknowledging our sin. No one can say they never sinned and don't need Christ. But 1 John 1:8 is not saying that we have sin to confess and acknowledge at every point in life including present and future, otherwise he's contradicting himself in the same letter.

Jesus said to stop sinning. Paul said to stop sinning. Peter said to stop sinning. John said to stop sinning.

Also, it doesn't make a lot of sense if we never stop sinning at any point in life. Is sleeping sinful? What about eating a meal? Is existing sinful? If walking in the light is only about acknowledging and confessing sin because we never stop sinning, what use is there trying not to sin?

If walking in the light is also about trying not to sin even though its impossible to stop, then to what degree are we trying to stop?

Sin is something we do, not a default state of being or automatic process. Obedience and righteousness are the same way.

 

[Lizbeth]

Wait, we are new creations in Christ. We aren't led by carnal flesh anymore. We are slaves to either righteousness or the flesh. But you don't carry sin in your flesh as a believer. We were supposed to crucify the old man and reckon ourselves dead to sin at our baptism (Romans 6).

Everyone has sin to acknowledge to confess. We all come from a sinful past and may choose to sin after deciding to live for Christ. Abiding in Christ can help us stop sinning completely in this lifetime. Being a slave of righteousness is still the goal.

Being in the light means acknowledging our sin. No one can say they never sinned and don't need Christ. But 1 John 1:8 is not saying that we have sin to confess and acknowledge at every point in life including present and future, otherwise he's contradicting himself in the same letter.

Jesus said to stop sinning. Paul said to stop sinning. Peter said to stop sinning. John said to stop sinning.

Also, it doesn't make a lot of sense if we never stop sinning at any point in life. Is sleeping sinful? What about eating a meal? Is existing sinful? If walking in the light is only about acknowledging and confessing sin because we never stop sinning, what use is there trying not to sin?

If walking in the light is also about trying not to sin even though its impossible to stop, then to what degree are we trying to stop?

Sin is something we do, not a default state of being or automatic process. Obedience and righteousness are the same way.

In that specific verse John mentions about "having" sin, not committing sin.....having sin is not the same thing as committing sin. Paul said in Rom 7 that in him, in his flesh, dwells no good thing. Also written in Rom 8 that the body is dead because of sin. Sin/iniquity is in our flesh nature......the law of sin in our members (Rom. 7). But I certainly agree that doesn't mean we have to COMMIT sin....since in Christ we have been set free from the dominion of sin . But if we didn't "have" sin in us any more, we would never have to battle with our carnal nature and flesh after receiving Christ. As Paul wrote, "If I do what I don't want to do (commit sin) it is no more I that do it but sin living in me."

Maybe it can be said this way.........."having sin" in this context is referring to the condition of being of our old man that causes one to commit sin, like how holiness is the condition of being of the new man that produces righteousness.

And I'm saying (what I believe John was saying) that realizing, acknowledging and confessing that we HAVE sin is only part of walking in the light....not saying that's all there is to being in the light. It's the light of the Lord that reveals the depth of our sin/iniquity to us....we are blind to most of it otherwise.

Hope that makes sense and clarifies any misunderstanding.

 

[Wynona]

But I certainly agree that doesn't mean we have to COMMIT sin....since in Christ we have been set free from the dominion of sin . But if we didn't "have" sin in us any more, we would never have to battle with our carnal nature and flesh after receiving Christ. As Paul wrote, "If I do what I don't want to do (commit sin) it is no more I that do it but sin living in me."

Will think about this more.

 

[Ritajanice]

Partakers of the Divine Nature
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificentpromises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in theworld caused by evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge;…

I believe the Living witness Gods Holy Spirit, who witnesses Gods truth to our “ hearts/ spirit “...then backed up by Gods written word...

Our spirit must be “ Born Again “ a Living supernatural spiritual Living birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh.....just as Gods Living witness testifies with our spirit.

Gods Holy Witness cannot indwell the heart/ spirit of a sinner.....that is where we are Born Again in our spirit, not our head.

None of us have been without sin, yet God in His mercy and Grace made our spirit Born Again of His Living seed.set free from sin and in the righteousness of Christ........in Jesus Name..Amen!

1 John 3​

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King James Version​

​

​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Hepzibah]

And amen, I certainly agree Paul was speaking to and about believers in Romans 7.....and I don't think he was intending to single himself out in particular when he refers to "I" but just in a way representing any believer who is walking in the flesh and hasn't learned to walk in the spirit. If he or anyone delights in the law of God after the inner man (as it also says in Rom. 7)....it has to be referring to those who have received Christ. I agree with you....did I come across as thinking otherwise?

"HAVING sin" that John wrote about, doesn't mean we have to WALK in it and COMMIT sin. It just means sin/iniquity exists in our flesh/carnal nature/old man....which we still "have" with us even though hopefully not walking in it. Does that clarify what I meant..?

Yes thank you it does clarify what you meant. Agreed that Paul is speaking to those who are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit, those of whom who we observe when he gets to Romans 8.

So God provides us with the power to overcome our carnal nature, having agreed to it being crucified. Yet, even though He does things perfectly, and repeats extensively that we are now not to sin, we will not be able to follow through and will fall from that repeatedly and sin as you said that no man apart from Jesus can walk without sin. I am meaning inward sins as well ie our thoughts.

This makes a mockery of that power. Or proves that we are not committed to Him 100% if as you say sins will continue to occur in a way which proves that no man is without sin. I agree that man can fall into sin, when his old nature is aroused and ascends. But that should be a rare occasion as we see in the apostles ie Peter and Paul, whose fall from grace is recorded - one for each of them. So we are talking about a different state here - one where sin has been fallen into and one where it has not. And the one where it is not is to have Satan as our father.

1John3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Have you been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed?


How can you not be committed to God, if you have been Born Of His seed?

1John3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Above scripture is delivered to our heart/ spirit, by Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit.

You need to know God’s word in your heart/ spirit....that can only come by His witness His Living Holy Spirit....when he makes our spirit Born Again, only he can bring our spirit to life!..

Has your spirit been Born Again by Gods Living Witness His Holy Spirit?

“ Spirit gives birth to spirit “?

Do you know what that means?

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◄ Romans 8 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Walking by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Partakers of the Divine Nature
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificentpromises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in theworld caused by evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge;…

I believe the Living witness Gods Holy Spirit, who witnesses Gods truth to our “ hearts/ spirit “...then backed up by Gods written word...

Our spirit must be “ Born Again “ a Living supernatural spiritual Living birth.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh.....just as Gods Living witness testifies with our spirit.

Gods Holy Witness cannot indwell the heart/ spirit of a sinner.....that is where we are Born Again in our spirit, not our head.

None of us have been without sin, yet God in His mercy and Grace made our spirit Born Again of His Living seed.set free from sin and in the righteousness of Christ........in Jesus Name..Amen!

1 John 3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I have trouble with that verse where it says whosever is born of God...literally CANNOT sin...? That just doesn't bear out in reality, we all know we have erred since coming to faith in some ways or another, and have been sinned against by fellow believers. Why else would we be told to bear with one another in love? James wrote that "we offend in many things all". I just wonder if there is some other way to understand what John is saying there or maybe it is not translated well? Could John be talking about when one is in the spirit? or could it mean "must not sin"? Or maybe he is referring to a wilfull lifestyle of sinning, that is possible I think but I just don't know. Tried looking things up but it hasn't clarified anything for me. Elsewhere it says "if we sin we have an Advocate...."....so apparently someone who is born again "can" sin.....because someone who is not born again doesn't have Jesus as their Advocate with the Father.

 

[Hepzibah]

It is best understood as a position that one can reach, after conversion, where one has the power to walk in the Spirit completely but can fall from it. If one thinks that it is impossible to stop sinning, despite the verses that command it, then one will not reach that state or get to the end of Romans 7.

 

[Hepzibah]

One can of course find out if this is true or not by asking God and taking that necessary first step in submitting entirely to Him.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes thank you it does clarify what you meant. Agreed that Paul is speaking to those who are walking in the flesh and not the Spirit, those of whom who we observe when he gets to Romans 8.

So God provides us with the power to overcome our carnal nature, having agreed to it being crucified. Yet, even though He does things perfectly, and repeats extensively that we are now not to sin, we will not be able to follow through and will fall from that repeatedly and sin as you said that no man apart from Jesus can walk without sin. I am meaning inward sins as well ie our thoughts.

This makes a mockery of that power. Or proves that we are not committed to Him 100% if as you say sins will continue to occur in a way which proves that no man is without sin. I agree that man can fall into sin, when his old nature is aroused and ascends. But that should be a rare occasion as we see in the apostles ie Peter and Paul, whose fall from grace is recorded - one for each of them. So we are talking about a different state here - one where sin has been fallen into and one where it has not. And the one where it is not is to have Satan as our father.

1John3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I wasn't at all addressing whether sins will occur and continue to be committed or not....just pointing out that we "have" sin in our flesh/carnal nature.....those inward sins that you mentioned. Selfishness exists/resides in our old man....yet that doesn't mean we will necessarily behave selfishly. Someone might have lust but doesn't necessarily mean they will act on it. Etc. However, we need to work on cleaning the inside of the cup as well as the outside (outward behaviour)...that is part of working out our salvation.

When John wrote that we "cannot" sin, however that is meant to be understood (see my post to Rita above)......I don't think it can mean that sin/iniquity doesn't literally exist any more in our old man carnal nature. It is not a contradiction to say that we cannot or must not "commit" sin as well as saying at the same time that we all need to acknowledge that we do "have" sin. And when some seem to say that they no longer literally "have" any sin when they are in the "higher walk"...as opposed to just not committing sin....it leads me to question how that can be (unless I've misunderstood them).

And because John also wrote this:

1Jo 3:1-3

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

(It says elsewhere "who hopes for what he already has"....so these things are talking about the future, at the coming of the Lord.)

 

[Ritajanice]

I have trouble with that verse where it says whosever is born of God...literally CANNOT sin...? That just doesn't bear out in reality, we all know we have erred since coming to faith in some ways or another, and have been sinned against by fellow believers. Why else would we be told to bear with one another in love? James wrote that "we offend in many things all". I just wonder if there is some other way to understand what John is saying there or maybe it is not translated well? Could John be talking about when one is in the spirit? or could it mean "must not sin"? Or maybe he is referring to a wilfull lifestyle of sinning, that is possible I think but I just don't know. Tried looking things up but it hasn't clarified anything for me. Elsewhere it says "if we sin we have an Advocate...."....so apparently someone who is born again "can" sin.....because someone who is not born again doesn't have Jesus as their Advocate with the Father.

I understand it well, there is nowhere in scripture that says a “ Born Again “ repeat “ Born Again “ sins.

He sees no sin in me , I am in the righteousness of Christ.

I have been Born Again of Gods Living seed, His Holy Spirit,His seed cannot indwell a sinner.

It’s not up for discussion any further.

You are on your journey with the Lord, I too am on my own journey with God via His Living Holy Spirit.

The Spirit indwells my spirit....Spirit gave birth to my spirit..

Spirit gives birth to spirit...easy to understand.

No one can fall from being Born Of Gods seed...He is the one who makes our spirit Born Again via His Spirit, you have no say in the matter...as his word says, we were chosen for his purpose and plan!

 

[Lizbeth]

It is best understood as a position that one can reach, after conversion, where one has the power to walk in the Spirit completely but can fall from it. If one thinks that it is impossible to stop sinning, despite the verses that command it, then one will not reach that state or get to the end of Romans 7.

I think you've misconstrued me.....I'm not at all trying to condone sin or saying it is impossible to stop "committing" sin.....that is not what I'm trying to do here. With God all things are possible, and we need to be working out our salvation in sincerity with the Lord.

But I seemed to have noticed in scripture there are two kinds of perfections referred to....one is the perfection we can walk in, in this life....and the other is the perfection that awaits us at the end of this life, or at the return of Christ.

Anyhow, it seems I'm not making myself understood at all, so I will just leave it here.

 

[Johann]

Walking in the Spirit goes far beyond only being led by the Spirit. One can be led by the Spirit in the wilderness stage. But one can only BE in the Spirit in the Promised Land. It's about location. Holiness is about location. That is...the very presence of God.

Does it say...Moses, take your shoes from off your feet because the ground you are standing on is righteous?

Holiness is about God's actual presence. Righteousness is about going about to obey God's commandments...even when He's not there!

Amazing how rarely you mention what really matters-the Holy Spirit.

 

[Johann]

I repeat, let’s “ HEAR” the Living Holy Spirit speak Gods truth deep into our hearts, that is where you truly know him listeners.

Then check out what you hear the Living Holy Spirit speaking to your heart with His written word, if what you heard isn’t there it wasn’t From Gods witness His Holy Spirit.

Listeners you don’t need any Bible reading to become Born Of The Spirit.

You need God’s Living word, His witness the Holy Spirit, then His Living word testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, is backed up by His written word.

I hardly ever read the Bible, what I write comes from the Living Holy Spirit, which I check the written word before I post.

God chose me for his purpose and plan.

Not, I repeat not for my purpose and plan....I do not constantly need my head in the Bible..

Blasphemous.

 

[Lizbeth]

I understand it well, there is nowhere in scripture that says a “ Born Again “ repeat “ Born Again “ sins.

He sees no sin in me , I am in the righteousness of Christ.

I have been Born Again of Gods Living seed, His Holy Spirit,His seed cannot indwell a sinner.

It’s not up for discussion any further.

You are on your journey with the Lord, I too am on my own journey with God via His Living Holy Spirit.

The Spirit indwells my spirit....Spirit gave birth to my spirit..

Spirit gives birth to spirit...easy to understand.

No one can fall from being Born Of Gods seed...He is the one who makes our spirit Born Again via His Spirit, you have no say in the matter...as his word says, we were chosen for his purpose and plan!

There's a difference between what has been imputed to us and what we have actually apprehended isn't there though....? In order to grow and take more ground in our life and heart we need to acknowledge and confess our sins as sins......in order to not only be forgiven of whatever sin we are confessing......but also in order to be cleansed of it as we seek to apprehend and bring down to our earth (earthen vessel) what has been laid up for us in "heaven", in spirit.

And I will say this......that the Lord longsuffers us while we are children in the faith ("suffer the little children")....but if we are still behaving as little children, sinning, when by now we ought to have become adults long ago......it puts out souls in danger....His spirit doesn't strive with man forever.....it has a limit. Pretending we don't sin or have sin, when we actually do, inhibits the growth that we need to be engaging in.