Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Wrangler]

If you have read any of my posts you would have no doubts as to the answer of that question.

More legendary inability to answer a simple question.

Legendary inability of trinitarians to answer questions shows itself again.

Me? I'm proud to be a Biblical unitarian. Jesus is our lord, who paved the way for our eternal salvation, i.e., is the first fruits of eternal reconciliation with God. Jesus achieved this by submitting to the will of his God and our God, his Father and our Father, just as he said in John 20:17. Jesus' God is the only true God (as Jesus said in John 17:3) and this God is named YHWH, who raised Jesus from the dead, which is our proof of God's justice as Acts 17:31 explicitly states.

Praise God, our Father, through Jesus who is God's Anointed master of us all as every Epistle explicitly states.

 

[Wrangler]

Looks like a play on words to me!

Trinitarians are the kingpin word players! Scripture says over and over and over again that Jesus is the son of god. You pretend this means God the Son.

 

[Charlie24]

Trinitarians are the kingpin word players! Scripture says over and over and over again that Jesus is the son of god. You pretend this means God the Son.

The masters of the Law (the Jews) took the meaning of "Son of God" to be claiming Deity and took up stones against Christ for saying it.

But Wrangler says, no that's not what it means.

Gee, who should I believe?

 

[The Learner]

.
Continued From No.415



Too many Christians are so intent upon insisting Christ is an eternal being
that they've managed to suppress the rather obvious fact that he's a human
being biologically related to Adam; and as such is temporal rather than
eternal.

Those same Christians will readily bleat that Christ is fully God and fully Man
when in reality they actually believe he's some sort of divine hominid. Some
have even gone so far as to allege that baby Jesus was an implant, i.e. Mary
was a surrogate mother instead of Jesus' real mother, and that his blood
was God's blood instead of David's. In their zeal to deify Jesus they've
managed to do a pretty good job of stripping him of his manhood in the process.
_

He is fully God and fully Man.

 

[The Learner]

I know nothing about the Trinity! There is nothing in Scripture for me study on the subject.

But I do know there are 3 Deities described in Scripture, but how they are One God I haven't a clue.

When John identified the 3 Deities, calling them One God, the true definition of what that really means is only found in the knowledge of the Godhead. We argue over nothing really, other than the fact that all 3 are God, they are the Godhead that Paul speaks of.

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

Read it, Study it, Believe it

 

[Keiw]

Well said, I agree 100%

Jesus didnt know he was God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--and it is 100% fact-God does not have a God. Even in The OT the Israelites knew the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7

 

[Keiw]

Hebrews 1
American Standard Version
1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [a]his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and [c]the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,

[d]Thou art my Son,
This day have I begotten thee?

and again,

[e]I will be to him a Father,
And he shall be to me a Son?

6 [f]And when he again [g]bringeth in the firstborn into [h]the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith,

[j]Who maketh his angels winds,
And his ministers a flame of fire:

8 but of the Son he saith,

[k][l]Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever;
And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of [m]thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;
Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And,

[n]Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou continuest:
And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up,
As a garment, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same,
And thy years shall not fail.

13 But of which of the angels hath he said at any time,

[o]Sit thou on my right hand,
Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to do service for the sake of them that shall inherit salvation?

The bible writers-all were Jewish to begin with, before following Jesus. Every Israelite on earth knew the Messiah has a God(Psalm 45:7) thus would never bow in worship to the Messiah. That Greek word-Proskenaue- translates-To bow and kiss the feet. 5 different meanings from Greek toEnglish-1) worship to God-2) Obesiance to a king-3) honor to a judge plus 2 others--Reality-They bowed in obesiance to Gods appointed king. Every intelligent person knows 100% God does not have a God-Jesus has a God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12. Catholicism translated errors in to fit their council additive of God being a trinity in 381 ce at the council of Constantinople. Catholicisms own encyclopedia teaches--No trinity was served prior to the end of the 4th century, and the apostles knew nothing of God being a trinity(New catholic Encyclopedia-1967-VolXIV, page299)-----Why????Because the Abrahamic God is a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah)--All mislead in the house divided(34,000) trinity religions) that will not stand, are being mislead into breaking Gods #1commandment daily.

 

[Keiw]

You are so hung up on superficials that you cannot see spiritual reality. No one I know worsahips saturnalia, or a christmas tree. Now todays Chri8stmas is a materialistic pig fest, but there is nothing wrong with setting a day aside to celebrate Jesus coming in to teh the world to redeem men, by His death and physical resurrection!

Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.


Who are you to judge another mans servant????????????????????????????

As touching things offered to idols:

1 Corinthians 8
King James Version

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.


So your conscience is weak and think that a Christmas tree is somehow filled with demons. Fine, I accep tthat. Don't put up one, but don't you dare judge someone whose conscience doesn't accept demons in a fir tree to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

I agree with you that external Christendom is collapsing. However, christianity is not a denomination, but an organism composed of true believers across all teh denominations of Christendom. we are united about Jesus. we differ on peripheral issues but agree on the fundamental important issues. True believers have always had divisions based on minor teachings.

But as touching the resurrection?

John 2:18-22
King James Version

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

SEE WHAT JESUS SAID??? DESTROY MY BODY AND IN THREE DAYS I WILL RAISE MY BODY UP!!!

DESTROY MY BODY AND I WILL RAISE IT UP!

So the indoctrination of the watchtower about Jesus being a life giving spirit is wrong!!

Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

It has nothing to do with worshipping those things. It has everything to do with 1Cor 10:21--God said--One CANNOT partake off his table and off the table of demons--Those things are off the table of demons. Jesus would have 0 to do with any of it, thus the true followers do the same. They are no part of this world. Its a deception from satan and his teachers of darkness-2Cor 11:12-15

Peter assures he was raised in the spirit-Facts back that--They didnt recognize him the first day-Thus not in his real body, He appeared behind a locked door-no flesh can do that. He appeared to Thomas in his real body but 0 doubt he was raised a spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

He is fully God and fully Man.

The most insolently illogical thing ever said! Duality jettison's logic, denies mutually exclusive ideas. The assertion is not merely that you are in and out but you are fully IN and fully OUT.

If man is fully God there is not reason to have any faith in Jesus' God - the only true God.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

The most insolently illogical thing ever said! Duality jettison's logic, denies mutually
exclusive ideas.

Christianity, at its core, is a supernatural religion. As such, it's to be
expected that some of its elements would be humanly impossible to
comprehend. One of those elements is that the Word of John 1:1-3 is able to
exist as a spirit being and a material being simultaneously. (1Cor 15:45)

The 18th chapter of Genesis strongly suggests that Jehovah is able to do it
too.
_

 

[Wrangler]

Christianity, at its core, is a supernatural religion. As such, it's to be
expected that some of its elements would be humanly impossible to comprehend.

Appeal to Ignorance. There is a difference between 'not able to be comprehended' and nonsense.

Being supernatural is not an escape from logic. Being supernatural does not mean one can be in and out and insolently, fully in and fully out.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Acts of the Apostles 10:43 says,
“To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”

The verse does not say: “We are not telling you to pray to Jesus, but we are telling you to believe on His name when we say, “call upon the name of the Lord.’”

Your primary beliefs first come from the words of the Watch Tower. The Bible is secondary for you. Well, you even said the Bible does not exist (Which is a dumb claim). But if you let your leaders brainwash you to believe whatever they say first, then no actual verse in Scripture can prove them wrong. They will just throw a random verse at you like you did with me that really does not say what it claims. They make the Bible out to be some kind of mystery book with it sometimes backing up what they say (Based on an altered translation THEY MADE). This is why we cannot take you seriously when we discuss the Bible. You don’t believe the Bible as a whole at all. Your standard is not the Bible, but it is the Watch Tower. Your a slave to religious traditions of men, and not God.

Then again, you don’t have to convince me of your inability to explain what the Bible actually says plainly.
You will have to face the Lord Jesus at the Judgment when all things are revealed.

What we teach is either truth or fiction sir. I showed you point blank where we are to pray to Jehovah by Jesus' instruction. I showed you an example of him praying to his God, and we are to follow his example, all from the Bible, you are free to believe it or not.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well you see that I did post

and you are still worng:

Jesus is Yahwehs redeemer and He is called yahweh of hosts- that is the bible like it or not!

Proof is an excellent concept sir, post it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No it is not clear.

1. No r parable actually uses a person's name.
2. Jesus never started any parable with "there was"
3. There is no comparative language as is in all Parables Words: "such as" "likened unto"
"is compared to" etc.
4. Abrahams bosom was not heaven. It was the place that righteous souls went when their bodies died.


Jesus communicate3s through His Word! Not through some magazine and little booklets. Anything that contradicts the plain clear teaching of Scripture is to be rejected fiercely, no matter who prints or says it.

My prayer is that once the church is raptured and taken home to be with the Lord, that the Jehovah's Witnesses eyes will finally be opened, see how they have been deceived and become fierce proclaimers of the gospel of the kingdom to be proclaimed in the 7years of tribulation.

It is a bit deep to understand sir, but it should be simple enough to know that no one could go to heaven yet, as their sins had not yet been ransomed. That you should be able to understand.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Being supernatural is not an escape from logic.

The human mind is produced by a three-pound lump of flabby organic
tissue; and not even all three of those pounds are utilized for cognitive
processes; and in point of fact, something like 60% of the human brain's
mass is fat.

Human logic has its uses; but only up to a point, i.e. human logic is
confined, boxed in, limited. The human mind's struggle to comprehend God's
supernatural aspects is sort of like a gnat attempting to drink up the
Atlantic ocean. Just as the gnat lacks a big enough stomach, so the Earth's
current strain of hominids lacks a big enough brain; and with just the right
bump on the head, or an aneurism in just the right location, and your IQ
will drop to the level of a termite and you won't even be able to remember
your loved ones or your very best friend.
_

 

[Wrangler]

Human logic has its uses; but only up to a point

Evidently, that point is scrutiny of the inherently contradictory, pagan notion of 3-is-1-ism.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It has nothing to do with worshipping those things. It has everything to do with 1Cor 10:21--God said--One CANNOT partake off his table and off the table of demons--Those things are off the table of demons. Jesus would have 0 to do with any of it, thus the true followers do the same. They are no part of this world. Its a deception from satan and his teachers of darkness-2Cor 11:12-15

Peter assures he was raised in the spirit-Facts back that--They didnt recognize him the first day-Thus not in his real body, He appeared behind a locked door-no flesh can do that. He appeared to Thomas in his real body but 0 doubt he was raised a spirit.

As your weak conscience thinks. Unless you can show that those trees and ornaments were prayed over by demonic priests, you are just wrong. Butr don't have them in your house. Just don't judge those that do and sin unto sin.

and maybe you should read the verses again in context from 1 Cor. 10:21

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

If people go where the druids are celebrating the tree from their lore, or the OT pagans in their lore then yes they are worshipping devils. If one worships the tree as something magical- yes that is sin also. But if it is merely a symbol to honor Jesus birth and one does not worship false gods with it- they are free to do so!

Let us look at the rest of the 1 Cor. 10 passage:

25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

28 But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Meats sold in the shambles was normally the animals sacrificed to false gods.

Paul said eat it without asking questions! for the earth is the Lords and the fulness thereof. But if the person offering the food said it is meat offered to idols, don't eat it for their conscience sakes.

1 Corinthians 8
King James Version

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Listen to Gods Word instead of the dictates of a man made organization!

Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Proof is an excellent concept sir, post it.

I just did- you are ignoring it again as usual.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is a bit deep to understand sir, but it should be simple enough to know that no one could go to heaven yet, as their sins had not yet been ransomed. That you should be able to understand.

YOU said they were in heaven, I told you abrahams bosom was not heaven!

 

[Keiw]

As your weak conscience thinks. Unless you can show that those trees and ornaments were prayed over by demonic priests, you are just wrong. Butr don't have them in your house. Just don't judge those that do and sin unto sin.

and maybe you should read the verses again in context from 1 Cor. 10:21

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

If people go where the druids are celebrating the tree from their lore, or the OT pagans in their lore then yes they are worshipping devils. If one worships the tree as something magical- yes that is sin also. But if it is merely a symbol to honor Jesus birth and one does not worship false gods with it- they are free to do so!

Let us look at the rest of the 1 Cor. 10 passage:

25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

28 But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?

30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Meats sold in the shambles was normally the animals sacrificed to false gods.

Paul said eat it without asking questions! for the earth is the Lords and the fulness thereof. But if the person offering the food said it is meat offered to idols, don't eat it for their conscience sakes.

1 Corinthians 8
King James Version

8 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

Listen to Gods Word instead of the dictates of a man made organization!

Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Those things originated in pagan false god worship ceremonies= straight off the table of demons. God remembers well where they originated. Catholicisms own encyclopedia says-- 1913,vol V, Page 227-- a great many pagan customs gravitated to Easter. The encyclopedias assure the same occurred for christmas--The saturnalia festival-Worship to the sun God--Where feasting and the exchanging of gifts to one another occurred, on or about Dec 25th. This is what became Christmas. Satan transforming into an angel of light doing those things, his teachers allow their flocks to participate 2Cor 11:12-15)