Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Aunty Jane]

1- Satan is a clever fellow, he's stopped JW's celebrating Jesus's birth and resurrection..:)

Did you know that there is not a single birthdate in the Bible for any person who was a worshipper of Jehovah? That includes Jesus......do you know why? It was because the Jews were forbidden to take up pagan customs, particularly those that involved spiritism. How can a birthday involve spiritism? It was a pagan custom for astrologers to cast horoscopes according to day that one was born....from this a prediction about their future was made. The birthday "wishes" were also an appeal to the spirits for good luck, and the birthday cake was a pagan custom with burning tappers to keep away evil spirits.....read Deuteronomy 18:9-12 and ask yourself if a birthday celebration is something God would approve of in the light of 2 Corinthians 6:14-18? The customs are all the same as they were carried on by the original pagan worshippers.

As for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, if you look back in the NT scriptures, there is no command to celebrate Christ's resurrection, only his death. Its about "not going beyond what is written" as Paul said, because once we do what we think is right, but is not commanded by God or his Christ, we can be led down the wrong track.
The Biblical example of that is when Israel were released from slavery in Egypt and they were gathered at Mt. Sinai where Moses was taking a long time receiving God's instructions......so the people decided to have "a festival to Jehovah". Nothing wrong with that is there? But they decided that they wanted a god that they could see so they talked Aaron into making a golden calf like the ones worshipped in Egypt and called it "Jehovah"...then they had a big ol' party and God told Moses to go down the mountain and put a stop to it.....taking down the Ten Commandment on stone tablets written by God's own hand, Moses was so distressed by what he saw that he smashed them!
From that time onward, God never allowed his people to add their own festivals to his worship. All the yearly celebrations were carefully outlined to the people, and they were to follow God's instructions to the letter. No one was allowed to add or subtract anything.

We are not told to commemorate Christ's resurrection and we see that satan turned it into a chocolate egg and rabbit festival because the goddess 'Easter' was honored at that time of year. Can you not see what this means to God? It makes a mockery of one of the most important events in history, she is the 'golden calf', but they didn't even change her name.

 

[Aunty Jane]

2- People can hang with their arms vertical above them and still be able to breathe okay, just nip down the gym and try it yourself..:)
But with arms outstrethced on a cross the victim is in serious trouble if he couldn't push up with broken legs-
WIKI- "with arms outstretched the typical cause of death was asphyxiation..the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs."
Yes Jesus never had his legs broke but was killed by a spear thrust.

As I mentioned, the configuration of the instrument makes no difference....it is the idolizing of that instrument and the making of images of it when God forbade his people from doing that. Its just a matter of obedience....it doesn't matter if you like those things and want to justify them....it matters how God feels about them. He was there when the original celebrations were held. He knows what has been adopted and where it came from.
Christ died before the spear was thrust in his side. This is what determined his death.

Satan's been up to his little tricks with the JW's again, he hates the sight of the cross so much that he's made them think Jesus was crucified on a stake.

You can think whatever you wish...we know what we believe and why we believe it. We won't touch thing that have pagan roots and customs that have simply been renamed to make them acceptable to those who have no interest in what God thinks about anything. Satan has certainly been up to his old tricks but who is falling for them....? :hmm:

 

[Robert Gwin]

The Bible does NOT state that he was raised a Spirit but raised IN the Spirit. In other words, the plan of reconciling people to God was initiated at this point, by this means, through this person who lead. The Bible calls it first fruits, which obviously implies the first in a series of like.

Your reply to Thomas is steeped in rationalization. No evidence of physical resurrection will alter your understanding.

Good day.

You have given none, I am very well aware that Jesus was physical when he appeared to Thomas, was it Jesus' body, no, as Thomas did not recognize him. I recognize by the mentioning that he came through locked doors, he was a spirit being just prior to materializing. I am fully aware that every time angels were sent to humans they appeared in physical bodies, as we can not interact with spirit beings. I fully believe Jesus returned to heaven as the person he was before he came to earth, and that since flesh and blood cannot inherit that Kingdom, then Jesus was a spirit being, as he had always been when residing in heaven. He was not created from the dust of the ground as was Adam. I admit he took on many human bodies after his resurrection, but no sacrifice is ever taken back sir, that is not a Bible teaching. If Jesus did not give his flesh and blood in our behalf, what hope do we have?

No sir, the Bible says he was resurrected as a spirit, and I will stand on that.

 

[Robert Gwin]

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Continued From No.703


It's not uncommon to walk right past a familiar face without recognizing
them when they show up in places least expected. In point of fact, none of
Jesus' closest friends ever expected to see him again; for example:

A good friend passed away some years ago. Every so often I run across men
strongly resembling my friend and I have to remind myself he's deceased so
I don't get fooled in a case of mistaken identity.

Something else: Jesus' body was very nearly stripped naked. The clothing
that his friends were accustomed to seeing him with was taken by soldiers.
I'm curious to know about his resurrection clothing because there have been
times when I've encountered co-workers in public and not recognized them
right away because the only clothing I've ever seen them with was work
clothes.

In every incident of a resurrection throughout the Bible it pertains to
somebody's physical body. It's very difficult for me to even so much as even
consider that Jesus' experience would be any different.

And then there's this:

• John 2:19-22 . . Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it
up. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will
you raise it up in three days? But he was talking about the temple of his
body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to
mind that he used to say this

"this temple" and "his body" of course refer to Jesus' physical existence. It
certainly wasn't Michael the archangel's spirit existence because that
would've been already dead 30+ years earlier so that Michael's life force
could be transferred to Mary's baby.

* David anticipated Jesus' physical body restored to life. (Acts 2:23-36)
_

Nope cant convince me Weber, I believe it is impossible that over 10 close associates of Jesus would forget what he looked like in just 3 days, and repeatedly forget what he looked like each time henceforth. On a more serious note, give a Bible example of a sacrifice being taken back. Number 2 if Jesus took back the sacrifice, what hope do we have? One of the reasons Jesus was sent to earth was to redeem what Adam lost, soul for soul, he gave his flesh and blood in our behalf, that was accomplished. He did not come here to remain a human and return to heaven, rather he returned to being the same being he was when he left.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes He did and He also worshipped Jesus! We are called to worship Father and Son.

One of the bad things about the Bible being put into other languages is how to express things. Worship is one of those sir. You are correct, even men are to be worshipped according to scripture Mat 18:26. Jesus said we are to worship and serve Jehovah exclusively Mat 4:10 the first of the 10 Commandments Ex 20:3. So worship is given in degrees, best research proskuneo for a better understanding Ron, as you might be held accountable for idolatry sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Already showed you from Is. 44:6 In Isaiah Jesus is called Yahweh of Hosts.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Ron, I understand why you feel that way sir, and if this was the only verse in the Bible I would agree with you, but although that looks like it is talking about Jesus, it cannot be as it would be contradictory to other verses sir. In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.

If you would read the verses following verse 6 it helps to clarify whom it is speaking about. Like I said, I fully understand why you think that, and it literally says that, but I don't believe the Bible can contradict itself, as that would actually make God stupid sir. It is our understanding that is off when the Bible contradicts itself, or translation errors come into play.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You cannot claim historical figures for your own religion which did not exist at that time.

Philippians 2:6-11 KJV
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It was Paul that penned these words, do you suppose that he himself didn't believe this is truth? No, you cannot appropriate some historical figure to paint in your colors.

Much love!

Actually Marks, Jehovah had witnesses even prior to humans sir, were you aware that Jesus was His very first witness? Rev 1:5 Jehovah has had covenanted witnesses since before 1500 BCE sir, yes we have been around quite a while.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well what's this cross at top left doing on a 1912 JW publication?..;)

View attachment 26447


PS- Symbols were good enough for early Christians..;)
"The Christian fish symbol was used as a marking on tombs and other secret meeting places by the early Christians"
The Christian Fish - The Story Behind This Christian Symbol

In a word sir, ignorance. It was not understood at the time, but we no longer display religious symbols. You do realize that in these last days our knowledge will increase correct Dan 12:4; Isa 2:2,3; Pro 4:18

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Were it not for the little Greek article modifying "name" we'd be safe to
assume that Jesus' human name is in view. But the passage is talking about
"the" name that is above every other name. Well; that passage is telling me
God's son is not only to be respected above all other sentient beings, but
that God's son has also been given the right to use Jehovah as his personal
identity, plus: failure to honor Jesus identity as Jehovah shows unthinkable
disrespect for the dignity of God's name.

Well you need to remember that the word "other" appears in no Greek manuscript. The two greek words we translate as other are "heteros" and "allos" and neither are in any Greek text. those only appear in either paraphrase bibles or what are known as "dynamic translation" bibles, which are just a little above a paraphrase.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

One of the bad things about the Bible being put into other languages is how to express things. Worship is one of those sir. You are correct, even men are to be worshipped according to scripture Mat 18:26. Jesus said we are to worship and serve Jehovah exclusively Mat 4:10 the first of the 10 Commandments Ex 20:3. So worship is given in degrees, best research proskuneo for a better understanding Ron, as you might be held accountable for idolatry sir.

Wrong! Yes I know worship is used to shoe reverence to authorities.

But it becomes clear if one chooses to believer Jesus when He said this:

John 5:22-24
King James Version

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The Greek Word "honour" is "timao" which is:

KJV Translation Count — Total: 21x
The KJV translates Strong's G5091 in the following manner: honour (19x), value (2x).

Outline of Biblical Usage G5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere:—honour, value.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.
2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23;

so Jesus said--However you value the Father, you also value or reverence the Son in the same way!!! It doesn't get more clearer or simpler to say than that!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ron, I understand why you feel that way sir, and if this was the only verse in the Bible I would agree with you, but although that looks like it is talking about Jesus, it cannot be as it would be contradictory to other verses sir. In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.

So now you are accussing God of making a grammatical error.

Especially when Jesus is called God in so many NT verses, I posted to you in other threads.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Acts 3:19--Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out--written by Luke, inspired by Gods word through holy spirit--its 100% fact. There is a whole bible it makes up 1 single truth, all must be applied.

Now go and learn what repentance means. Never mind I will give you a free Greek grammar lesson.

Repent is "meta-noeo" which simply means to change ones mind! meta= change. Noeo= mind (thinking). Now you will have to do something the Watchtower condemns, think for yourself!

These were for the most part good Jewish people! They were following the law of Moses as best they could, keeping the feasts and as Paul said, they had a heart for God!

What they had to change their minds on is who is Jesus and what did He accomplish! As is written all throughout the nT, they had to believe on Jesus as being their Messiah and dying and physically rising from the dead for their sins ! those who did that had their sin washed away! JOhn 3 is big on this:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

...........................................
Since you seem to have difficulty reading English, I will point out that "all this verbage" is mostly trinitarian "verbage." And as for the accuracy of the trinitarian Bible translations I have supplied, try to explain which of the following are "dynamic translations" and which are not:

“all the other Galileans” - NIV, Luke 13:2
“all other Galileans” – NASB
“all other Galileans” – NAB (’91)
“all other Galileans” - NRSV
“all other Galileans” - NKJV
“all the other Galileans” – RSV
“anyone else in Galilee” – NEB and REB
“than any other Galileans” - JB
“than all other Galileans” - NJB
“any other Galileans” - AT
"everyone else in Galilee" - CEV.
"all other Galileans" - TEV.
"all other Galilaeans" - BBE
"other people from Galilee" - GodsWord
"all the other Galileans" - ISV NT
“the rest of the Galileans” - Moffatt

And every single one of these passages which is a dynamic subjective translation still say what is said in actual translations.

Jesus name is above every single other name without exception. Even these passages with "other" added still show that every Galilean without exception was included! It is accepted grammatically in English when one remembers that the context here is every single Galililean is in mind without any single exception.

In english, all has two meanings.

1. Every single thing mentioned of a particular item.
2. Everything period!

Examples:

1. Wife asks husband," did you invite all the children to the party?" context shows that this means everyone of a specific group and there are exceptions (every child not on the initiation list)

2. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. This means every singly person is a sinner! No excpetions.

In Greek they give teh context by the word spelling and construct of the particular passage in mind! That is why all linguistic tranlsations simply say all because the passage means every name that is named!

 

[Wrangler]

You have given none, I am very well aware that Jesus was physical when he appeared to Thomas, was it Jesus' body, no, as Thomas did not recognize him. I recognize by the mentioning that he came through locked doors, he was a spirit being just prior to materializing. I am fully aware that every time angels were sent to humans they appeared in physical bodies, as we can not interact with spirit beings. I fully believe Jesus returned to heaven as the person he was before he came to earth, and that since flesh and blood cannot inherit that Kingdom, then Jesus was a spirit being, as he had always been when residing in heaven. He was not created from the dust of the ground as was Adam. I admit he took on many human bodies after his resurrection, but no sacrifice is ever taken back sir, that is not a Bible teaching. If Jesus did not give his flesh and blood in our behalf, what hope do we have?

No sir, the Bible says he was resurrected as a spirit, and I will stand on that.

Like I said, steeped in rationalization. I showed you how the Bible says he was resurrected IN the Spirit but you carry on.

He took on many human bodies? Oh my!

 

[Webers_Home]

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Continued From No.760

Raymond Victor Franz was a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's
Witnesses from October 20, 1971 until his removal on May 22, 1980, and
served at the organization's world headquarters for fifteen years, from 1965
until 1980.

Mr. Franz resigned, and stated that the request for his resignation, and his
subsequent dis-fellowshipping, resulted from allegations of apostasy.

Following his departure, Mr. Franz wrote a book titled "Crisis Of Conscience"
relating his personal experiences with the Watchtower Bible and Tract
Society, along with his views on Jehovah's Witness teachings. It's a bit
expensive in print form, but might yet be heard audibly for free on YouTube
and/or available as a free pdf download.

Mr. Franz's book, and his interviews, are helpful aids for people wondering if
they made the right decision leaving the Society's fold. It's also helpful for
people thinking about becoming a Jehovah's Witness but reserve some
doubts as to whether they'd be making a really big, life-changing mistake
not easily corrected.

* Mr. Franz passed away in June of 2010.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Well you need to remember that the word "other" appears in no Greek manuscript.

The "other" issue was addressed at length back in post No.115
_

 

[marks]

Actually Marks, Jehovah had witnesses even prior to humans sir, were you aware that Jesus was His very first witness? Rev 1:5 Jehovah has had covenanted witnesses since before 1500 BCE sir, yes we have been around quite a while.

Now you would claim Jesus Himself for your false religion!

You have no shame!

On a Christian forum you continue to attack the basic tenets of Christianity.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Actually Marks, Jehovah had witnesses even prior to humans sir, were you aware that Jesus was His very first witness? Rev 1:5 Jehovah has had covenanted witnesses since before 1500 BCE sir, yes we have been around quite a while.

Interesting POV.

Now you would claim Jesus Himself for your false religion!

You have no shame!

On a Christian forum you continue to attack the basic tenets of Christianity.

Much love!

Mark, I don't sense a lot of love with shame and false words in that post.

Given, JW's consider themselves Christian, doesn't it stand to reason that Jesus plays a prominent role in the religion they hold dear?

 

[marks]

Interesting POV.



Mark, I don't sense a lot of love with shame and false words in that post.

Given, JW's consider themselves Christian, doesn't it stand to reason that Jesus plays a prominent role in the religion they hold dear?

Facts are facts, it's just the way it is.

You know . . . Adam, Hezekiah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Enoch, and, the Holy Spirit, all of these support my "interesting POV."

;)

(I'm not really making this argument, just showing the silliness of it)

God is still love when He denounced, through His prophets, those who were false.

God gives simple ways in the Bible to identify error. Should we ignore those? Or heed them?

"Jehovah's Witnesses" fails the test of Christianity, therefore, it is not Christianity. It claims to be so, therefore, it is false. Those who present it as true, and then go on to claim historical figures, and even Jesus Christ Himself, well, I'll let you describe what that's about. You realize the absolute fallacy of such an argument, right?

Do I not love you because I tell you the truth?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

"Jehovah's Witnesses" fails the test of Christianity

What test of Christianity is it that JW's fail? Please cite a Scripture verse to support your answer.